UKresonant

Just now, Psychic said:

So since the Thai tax on inheritance is zero up to 100 million baht (approximately $4 million Canadian) there would be no tax payable  on that?

Just trying to determine if they would use similar rules on the same thing from abroad.

• Applying the Tax Rate

  Once the net value of the estate is determined, the appropriate tax rate is applied. If the estate's net value is not over 100 million baht, no estate or inheritance tax is due. However, if the estate's net value is above the threshold, a 5% tax rate is applied.

"

Would page 20 Chapter V item 1 perhaps suggest it would be the same treatment?

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/canada_e.pdf

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

have said repeatedly that I don't believe the government would deliberately harm the Thai property sector, there will not be a financial penalty for importing funds to buy property here. I don't know at this stage how it will work in  practise but there will not be additional tax to pay on those funds

It will be an interesting option to avoid those now working out their additional tax bill, if it surfaces....

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

I won't be signing up for any LTR or any other poor value for money scheme, nor offers from the Thai government, including their poor return bonds.

 

The income tax, I will just do the wait and see approach, I am in no rush as it appears nor is the Thai government, as they have failed to expand on anything since the announcement.

 

Whatever, It's the beginning of 2024, so anything possibly due, won't be until 2025, and I see no reason for a stampede to accountants, who will try to scare us to death to use their services, nor will I join the chorus of ' I'm leaving, that is the final straw ' brigade, who are, like me, are not in possession of the facts nor implications at this stage.

 

A question for the ' experts ' though, if these rules come to pass, what about all those importing large amounts of funds to purchase condominiums and businesses?

 

Surely, one would think that the government will be shooting themselves in the foot?

 

A friend of mine, who is a long term resident and former UK tax inspector, seems to be of the opinion that this was initially aimed at people who are wealthy, such as Thais, avoiding tax and also aimed at those in the cryptocurrency industries, those working remotely in the Far East with online businesses and those involved in large stocks and share transfers.

 

 It's possible retirees are at the moment, until clarification, getting swept up with the sandstorm.

 

I moved monies a long time ago, but I still do such things as new cars and trucks etc, however, I will closely monitor expenditure in this country until I know the full implications.

That's about it, the primary target is the ones not paying tax any where, and the indigenous Thai supposed to be taxpayers compounding untaxed money's tax free., Then bringing it in Totally untaxed.

Everyone else secondary and coincidental targets perhaps.  Thai and expat. 

On money's remitted / brought in for condo and major purposes (your question to others), if the money was generated whilst the recipient was not tax resident it is remains not an issue?

If you made the money over a number of years whilst being a Thai resident, then you are being treated equally as per Thai resident nationals, now under the Tax changes when remitting overseas funds.  (Surely folks are not expecting superior treatment to Thai nationals in identical scenarios.) Quacks like a duck looks like a duck and the like.

I think there is a perhaps a sympathy argument that there should be a  period, for folks transitioning to stay full time in Thailand. Selling a personal residential property overseas (tax free in UK) moving the money over and though doing due diligence thought it was 183days rather than 180 for the tax residence, and similar, its an injustice! scenarios. 

The tax changes impact to me are principally  the potential time and complexity, compared with bringing in last year's already taxed money, ensuring no admin or tax errors arose (under the old rule)

3 hours ago, Phulublub said:

This is the point I was trying to highlight a couple of days ago and is potentially even more complicated than that for some. 

 

Consider those with both UK Government Pension (exempt) and UK State Pension (not exempt) and other non exempt income (dic=vidends, interest etc) .  Will they be able to allocate their personal allowance to their exempt income so that ALL the non-exempt is taxed at 20% thus reducing any potential additional liability here, or must it be pro-rata? 

 

PH

If you do not require any further documentation from Thai RD, to interact with another countries RD, perhaps some issues. To prevent double exclusion. The UK / Thai situation may not generate the a problem. 

Though not in detail technically correct , I will only intend to remit PAYE pretaxed pensions, to the exact net value one uk tax year in arrears, associated p60 etc available etc and hope that will suffice. E.g.  100% of pension 1, 100% of pension 2., 3 , 4. To value required to keep me whole. 

Otherwise very complicated....

6 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

That is the big question currently. I believe it is a case of the overseas funds having been subject to the overseas tax process rather than actual tax having been paid on every pound or baht that is remitted. But the RD need to confirm this is the case and that they will allow the UK PA.

I would speculate that;-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

Uk Article 24  (others similar)

(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected.

*so =you  get the Thai PA & deduction? no UK PA affect at the Thai end.

(4) Nothing contained in this Article shall be construed as obliging either Contracting State to grant to individuals not resident in that State any of the personal allowances, reliefs and reductions for tax purposes which are granted to individuals so resident

**You retain the UK PA, at the UK end, if;-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

UK Personal Allowances for non-residents
Some of the UK’s double taxation treaties provide for personal allowances to certain categories of individuals (for example, nationals of the other territory who are resident in that territory).
In addition to the provisions of any double taxation treaty, if you are not resident in the UK you may use form R43 to claim the same UK tax allowances as a UK resident if, at any time in the tax year you meet any of the following conditions:
a. You are a British citizen or a national of another member state of the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA member states are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and United Kingdom.
b. You are resident in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.
c. You have previously resided in the United Kingdom and are resident abroad for the sake of
 your health, or
 the health of a member of your family who is resident with you.
d. You are or have been employed in the service of the British Crown.
e. You are employed in the service of any territory under Her Majesty's protection.
f. You are employed in the service of a missionary society.
g. You are a widow, widower or surviving civil partner whose late husband, wife or civil partner was employed in the service of the British Crown.

Hope that makes sense?

Raises another Question

So does the wife get the UK personal allowance, if I pop-my clogs and I have a civil service pension, from which she would receive a widows pension (g.).

Time for an English breakfast tea, 

7 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

And even then I don't see how it can work. The money I'd gift my wife would have to be remitted first and therefore get taxes as my income. In fact, I don't see who is exempt the gifter, the giftee, both? Maybe worth developing a bit here, with care.

a. If the funds were created (and subject to tax scrutiny overseas) when not Thai Tax Resident or the are excluded, probably will work splendidly. 

b. If from (overseas) funds created whilst Thai Tax resident and have not been considered against Thai tax, I don't see how it can work either (going forward).

2 hours ago, spambot said:

Mnnn - Actually you bring up a good point about ISA's - That is, if tax protected vehicles in the UK will be respected.

 

Most of the funds deposited into an ISA would be from earnings and would have been subject to Tax prior to deposit and If rather than used for making an ISA deposit the funds had been sent into Thailand, normally this would be DTA protected, hence unlikely to be Taxed in Thailand. However if in the tax year when funds are taken out of the ISA they are then remitted as resident in Thailand - Will the Tax free vehicle change the taxable status of the initial deposits which  have already been taxed.

 

For example, for taxed income deposits of £100K in an ISA with an increase of say £5K tax free inside the ISA, then £20k is withdrawn, transferred out when resident in Thailand - Will this be treated as mixture of taxed/untaxed or will all  withdrawn funds be considered as not taxed since its coming out from a tax free vehicle in the same year as it arrives in Thailand.

 

I suspect no one knows right now, but worth watching as further details emerge.

 

 

Some thinking out loud...

I expect no DTA effect at all. I would prioritise your tax residency status, of when the funds were placed into the ISA.

I think I would try not to remit ISA proceeds to Thailand. and have now associated an ISA to a totally different bank, to which my pre-taxed pensions are paid to in the UK. I would expect the state pension to go where my ISA goes to if / when I eventually get it as not taxed at source.

I think the only way to be reasonably safe, is to avoid any input to that ISA after 31st December of the year before you to become / became tax resident in Thailand, if an event does not decided your timing in lieu of any plan. Then at least that valuation point the capital value is excluded from Thai Tax, as created when not Thai Tax Resident.

You still have an opportunity you start another ISA the April  before the year you move to Thailand and can still deposit to that one in the UK tax year of the move. There may be multiple resident non- resident swings!

(If it is a Stocks and  Shares ISA it could be a churning of the funds whilst still UK Tax resident to give more recent base value points could be a goer, if you think you may later have to withdraw and remit to Thailand)

A corporate action could initiate a disposal scenario within the tax free wrapper, and an associated gain.

I would ignore events within the tax Free Wrapper in the UK, but dividends being paid out perhaps can't excepting they will be all trailed to UK expenditure, so not a remit to Thailand issue, unless a force Majeure arises.

Unfortunately I understand the ISA wrapper will have zero recognition in Thailand.

All phrased from my Non-Thai Tax resident current status view point! The UK is my centre of vital interest (DTA speak), having only one very special interest present in Thailand currently.

Will wait and see for further info......

9 hours ago, stix40 said:

Just asking the question about gifting 

How does it work ?

If it's a legitimate way of minimising tax.

Not keen on pay tax multiple times are You !

If the gift value was created whilst you were not Tax resident in Thailand, can't see them being an  issue, but from now on, if you create the funds to be gifted overseas, whilst you are Thai Tax Resident, they may require to be considered as taxable before, the recipient receives them, as normal remittance to yourself. 

They could be funds from an inheritance, which would probably not flag an issue under 100 million baht. (with very accurate, and certified paperwork).

Take this as a suspicion only, I cannot verify it currently, as my UK lottery ticket returns have been dire recently.🙂

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

As for the first point, hardly anyone does pay tax here, that's the big problem! But it's almost certainly not because of Gift Tax.

 

If you look at the link below and read the para, "Assessible (Taxable) Gift Income" and scroll down to part that reads, "for a  gift received by...a spouse", the rules state that up to 20 mill. is tax free. If not a spouse etc, it's 10 mill.

 

One of us appears to be missing something here on this point, I hope it isn't me. So if you can tell me where you think what I have said above is incorrect, please do.

 

https://sherrings.com/gift-tax-law-in-thailand.html#:~:text=tradition or custom-,Subject to tax on the amount of the gift received,baht in a tax year.&text=Exemption from tax as per the rules specified by Ministerial Regulation.&text=an adopted child)-,On the amount of the gift received in excess of,transfer of the immovable property. 

And then there is a 5 / 10 % tax option if extra generous.

Cash gifts into the UK don't seem to be a problem, only any interest generated is taxable, so should not be a problem?

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The Capital Gains issue has appeared a number of times but we still don't have a conclusive answer. One potential answer is that the gain is pro-rata with any part of it being tax free if earned prior to 1 January 2024 and the remainder, taxable. That approach would require an accurate  valuation at 1 January 2024 which may be problematic if you try to get one retrospectively.

I think the gain will be calculated purely at the date of the transaction. This also makes me wonder on the fx rate applied, and timing.

1 hour ago, spambot said:

Good information about the Tax clearance certificate - Also I think you are right METV tourists would be a big issue and rather confusing expecting Tax to be considered on Exit. There are around 2.6 million foreigners long term resident in Thailand and if eliminating the people from Lao, Myanmar and Cambodia (1.8 million), then about 800k other long term foreigners is a healthy number to start new Tax investigation activities. However probably initially the more important priority will be actual Thailand nationals, sufficiently wealthy who have been repatriating overseas funds at zero tax.

Yes it may /will affect some Thai retirement strategies. In a similar way to the UK, reducing the capital gains allowance from£12k to £3k this year, of finding my Tax free in UK ISA investments likely to be treated as normal dividends and gains under Thai Tax . Now their tax free overseas investment retirement supplement  will potentially be clobered  for Tax 25-30%, on total return.

RD do seem to take a reasoned view with pensions , in that they are saying, that if taxed overseas, then not an issue apparently. 

(Differs from UK HMRC, for example who are still pursuing UK pensioners who have been scammed out of their pension, for a 55% tax charge on the money they no longer have. As it was an unauthorised transfer or withdrawal! Members of parliament are trying to get them reeled back in, but they have been attacking their own nationals like this for years, (similar thing with a company trainingg scheme recently.)

I would expect them to have an undeclared internal threashold, on which they will preferentially pursue initially, to have resource Vs Tax yeild initially, on those aggressively using the previous rule and those avoiding OECD should be taxed somewhere theme.

Thais may end up with more static overseas portfolios ( hope that plane manufacturer can get it's act together...)

4 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

If you are not in Thailand more than a cumulative total of more than 179days in the calendar year (Thai tax year) no issues.

 

Previously if you were a total of  180days cumulatively in Thailand, and became Thai  tax resident, and principally had only income from overseas. It got taxable if brought in to Thailand in the same year. If brought in the following year, it was treated as savings.

 

From 1st Jan 2024, if you earn or derive income overseas (or similar gains etc), whilst Thai Tax resident,  it is taxable if you remit it to Thailand 'in that year', and/or remit it any time in the future.

 

Thai Revenue taking more interest in overseas income, whilst you are resident in Thailand.

 

Lots of detail posted in the guide on an associated thread!

I think it's around 28th June 2024, to be the earliest date you become Thai Tax resident this year, if you have not been out of Thailand, then new rules will start to be applied. 

9 minutes ago, Marco100 said:

Only income brought to Thailand is Taxable . ( No worldwide taxation as far as this is an amendment of an old law ) .

Patrimony exsisten before End of December 2023 are considered Savings and when imported are exempted of taxes .

This is what I got to understand till today . Any one has a Worldwide Tazation information ?

If you need to pay certain sums better do it direct from overseas .

Use Overseas Credit card to pay expenses in Thailand .

This should limit the transfer of cash to Thailand to minimum and related taxes to a reasonable ammount .

Please correct me if wrong ?

IMHO

Only* income brought to Thailand is Taxable.  Generally Yes if it is Earned whilst you are a Thai tax Resident, and you bring it in to Thailand, 'in year' or at any time in the future. *(could be Gains taxed as income, dividends etc). 

Patrimony exsisten before End of December 2023 are considered Savings and when imported are exempted of taxes . Various suggest correct

This is what I got to understand till today . Any one has a Worldwide Tazation information ? It is still remittance basis in most cases. a global declaration may arise in Dual taxation or when you need a Certificate of Residence from Thai RD, to present to an oversees tax authority but is still tax on remittance at the Thai end, on the examples I've seen. 

On the next bit, direct payments & cards I'll just comment...

Please correct me if wrong ? You have some potential to discover you may not be correct. 

Except perhaps if  what you pay for is purely out with Thailand.

2 hours ago, spambot said:

It might be a good plan if you have the lifestyle option to move funds into Thailand in the tax year that you are not resident just to stay under the radar. but if its just about the odd time visiting and being over the 180 days by a few days or even a few weeks these type of infrequent occurrences is probably not going to be worth the effort for the Tax to capture. The more likely first targets will probably be low hanging fruit, such as long term recurring tax paying expats on NON-IMMIGRANT VISA "O" who must provide full details where they live and a financial statement annually.

For a slight overrun most likely, but with some doubt, unless they implement the Tax Clearance Certificate for individuals again, like they had in the early 90's(?) But probably very unlikely. could you imagine someone on an METV thats had one extension getting blocked at exit, unlikely hopefully.

7 hours ago, Robin said:

My retirement plan is t sell my property in UK and liv here on the proceeds.  Will the money from property sale be classified as 'income'?  The property is owned outright and been paid for years ago.  Not subject to UK CGT. 

All seems a very grey area.  How will RD know what is going on? 

Say I visit UK once a year and bring back £5k  in cash.  the change to ThB at one of the money changers, not a bank.  Who will know what is going on?

From 2024 on, if your over 179days in the calendar year and become Thai Tax resident, then the starting position is your under the Thai tax.

when ever you then bring gain into Thailand, which will be on Thai PIT rates. ( then of course all other considerations, DTA', it has been subject to tax etc)

(I made sure when doing sizable transactions in 2018, that I was not Thai tax resident that year, to eliminate the doubt.)

If you bring cash in and change it at the exchange booth, what do they do with the photcopy of your passport they take under a requirement of Bank of Thailand regulations?

8 hours ago, AjarnMartin said:

Perhaps poetic licence regarding ‘just before’ to mean when he was 58…? 🙏

Retiring at 55 he was going to have his pension benefits actuarial reduced at a flat rate of 5% per anum for every year prior to his normal retirement age of 60. I.e. 25%. So he did not retire for a further 2 years at age 57, where his reduction of retirement pension benefits would be 15%. On his occupational Defined Benefit Pension. (Not relevant to DC money purchase pensions, SIPPS etc)

But they are getting the pension paid for three more years relative to the NRA.

4 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

A possible solution: Use the debit/credit cards from your overseas accounts to pay living expenses? Don't transfer funds into a Thai account from overseas?

If you have not declared your tax residency already to your debit card provider (bank), a non-tourist pattern of spending, in a particular country, may prompt them to ask for you to clarify. (Depending what jurisdiction your bank is located).

8 hours ago, CygnusX1 said:

I believe less than 180 days - vital to be accurate here! I now have a spreadsheet for days in Thailand, had intended to spend around 7 months here in 2024, now planning no more than 177 days (a delayed or cancelled flight could put me over 180 days if I don’t allow a safety margin). I think if I’m in Thailand at midnight that counts as being here for the next day?

That's what Dad does, just has to watch for variance on the Dec/Jan Trip. Belt and braces as always from previous years money so far, and pre Jan 2024 funds ongoing, so absolutely no chance of liability to tax over there.

8 hours ago, trevoromgh said:

Can someone advise me if these new tax rules apply if you live in Thailand for less than 6 months of the year please?

If you spend less than 180 days cumulatively in the calendar year your not tax resident in Thailand.

Then years in to the future it would only be if your bringing in assessable income generated from a year you were over the 179 days in Thailand. (After 2023)

7 hours ago, creative1000 said:

Is moving money (earned 10 years ago) from a usa bank account to Thailand bank now taxable this year? I’ve heard so many answers

So it would probably be covered by the pre-2024 dis-regard, if you still have the paper work. (The interest on such savings has to be considered, if Thai Tax resident after Jan 2024, and later remitted to Thailand)

Assuming the tax situation is probably as understood time now, if you asked the same question in 2034 it would depend on whether you were Thai tax resident when youn earned the income, if you were, it would be potentially taxable, if you brought it in to Thailand, at any time in the future. (read the English translations of RD 162/2566, see if it explains ) 

So from now on the interest on the savings will likely become Thai taxable as soon as you exceed the 179days in Thailand that year, whenever you bring it into Thailand from now on...

3 hours ago, stat said:

There are very few if any expats on this forum that have ONLY income from employment... If the tax guide is only for those with ONLY income then it is not helping.

I think in a lot of cases it is the translation of the other things translating against the personal income tax at the Thai end that is the shock to the system perhaps. Also the differential caused due to the UK having a separate £3k allowance for capital gains. (or it will be in a few weeks if not held at £6k due to election year.)

Just now, JimGant said:

There's nothing in this remittance charade that dictates whether or not money sent from a bank account is "old" money (i.e., pre 2024) or "new" money (i.e., interest  earned post Jan 2024). And, even more, if you add earnings to this account post Jan 2024, these earnings can be either non assessable via the DTA, like gov't pensions -- or assessable, like private pensions. So, you send a chunk of money to Thailand from this account -- from which tranches does this money come from? There certainly aren't any rules regarding this -- at least as of now. So, as part of the whole self-assessment drill, it would seem it's up to you to identify which tranches you tapped for remittance. With good records, you certainly could make sure you're remittances are first tapping the non assessable funds in that bank account -- hey, your call. But, jeez, I can't imagine such a detailed reporting requirement, with all the associated costly manpower, ever occurring. Maybe a random compliance audit here and there. No, just another aspect of the necessary self-assessment aspect of this goat rope. Just be prepared to argue your methodology of identifying tranches for cash flow remitted.

So do you think it is reasonable that we can truly pick what we remit, I am indeed hoping that is the case.

I'm trying to organise so that I have good records available later should I become tax resident in Thailand

E.G.

a. All pre-taxed at source UK Pensions, paid to one UK bank account.

b. All non taxed investment dividends and interest to another account

With the intention of only including items from "a" to be considered for transfer to Thailand, with associated paper trail, proof of taxation etc

However could it get complicated, and they could deem that they consider the items at "b" to be the remittance, though I would not wish to include them as they would be needed for expenditure in the UK and never be remitted to Thailand?

It was the Norwegian answer  link earlier on page 222 that raised my doubts, of course this was someone trying to detach from Norway's tax system and obtain a Thai Certificate of Residence to use against the Norwegian Tax. (Not a Scenario I would anticipate with the UK)  https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/Norwegian_answer.pdf

But I'm hoping that Pension Payslip. P60 end of year tax certs, remittance to UK Bank and assoc. statement, amount remitted to Thai bank. Only items in the conversation? and all is well.

13 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I was wondering whether it will be necessary to isolate the interest earned on pre-2024 savings.Most people with cash holdings tend to roll up the interest and capital on maturity of the deposit's term.Under the new dispensation pre 2024 savings are not taxable and indeed apparently do not even have to be declared on a Thai tax return if remitted.But the interest component is surely taxable and would be difficult to disentangle.

Yes best to avoid any interest being added to the account after 1st Jan 2024. As this years interest will compromise the pre-2024's purity (assuming you shall be Thai tax resident for 2024 that is).

If it does get credited to the amount I will transfer it back out to another account before it compounds.