GuestHouse

They'd look a sight bleaker if we'd stayed in the EU.

Youth unemployment is 50% in Greece, 45% in Italy and 40% in Spain and has been getting worse with increased levels of immigration thanks to the open door policies of the EU.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so mine is that your comment above is xenophobe and total BS!

Youth unemployment has been at shockingly high levels in the countries you mentioned for a loooooooong time and is predominantly unrelated to immigration and foreigners taking away their jobs.

If you believe that for Italy or Spain leaving the EU will make life for those kids any better, I better hope you´ve already sent your letter to Santa Clause letting him know what you want for Christmas. Given your view on economic things and migration, I am sure you´ve already sent that letter.

Anyways, as I said, everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether it is right or wrong, xenophobe or plain stupid. That´s the nice thing about democracy (yes, that´s the thing Britons, according to the Brexiteers, don´t (yet) enjoy because of the EU). But soon Britain will be free at last and then the promised rose garden and paradise will be for all to enjoy. /ironyoff

Do you not fear for our young relatives' future and safety if we remain in the EU and lose what control of our borders we still have, they can easily become victims of terrorist attacks that are sweeping Europe right now and are unlikely to abate.

Terrorist attacks abound in the EU countries that promote multiculturalism, immigration and political correctness which are in Western Europe in the most prosperous and advanced nations.

The UK, France, Germany and Belgium are countries considered to be of High Alert in terms of Islamic terror attacks because they are so inundated with Muslims.

Croatia, Hungary, Poland and all the EE nations are considered to be at low risk because they have so few Muslims.

Therefore it has to be concluded that the countries who have the most Muslims are the most dangerously affected. Would you like to see your young ones grow up facing theses risks. Out of the EU we can pull the drawbridge up while in Europe Frau Merkel has forbidden any such precaution. She was hoping to unload some of the results of her lunacy upon us!

Nothing to do with western interference and western wars in the middle east then?!

Hammond Seeks Brexit Business Boost In China

http://news.sky.com/story/hammond-seeks-brexit-business-boost-in-china-10508488

As any Isaan farmer will tell you - Don't ever expect a good deal fom the Chinese if you ate desperate to make the deal.

Philip Hammond and the UK's international trade negotiators are not Isaan farmers.

No but they are desperate for a deal from the Chinese.

Hammond Seeks Brexit Business Boost In China

http://news.sky.com/story/hammond-seeks-brexit-business-boost-in-china-10508488

As any Isaan farmer will tell you - Don't ever expect a good deal fom the Chinese if you ate desperate to make the deal.

An interesting article on the subject of leaving (or perhaps not):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/why-its-time-to-accept-the-fact-that-brexit-may-never-actually-happen-a7148816.html

The article argues that it's almost impossible that we will leave and lists valid 10 reasons why, underlying them are the following:

• The EU will not give the UK a deal in which Britain gets access to the single market but opts out of the "freedom of movement" requirement that lets EU migrants into the country. In fact, the EU cannot give this deal to the UK because it would represent an existential threat to the EU itself: If one country gets access to the single market while controlling its own immigration borders, then every country in the EU will want to do the same.
• Leaving the EU will cause such massive damage to the UK economy that it might be political suicide for any government to actually leave despite the fact that a majority of people voted Leave in the EU Referendum.

This quote from the same article is not quite true.

"On those assumptions, May's government is heavily incentivised to drag its feet over the Leave negotiations. It would be much easier for the Tories to be seen to be negotiating an exit, while not actually exiting, than actually leaving Europe. Especially when 2020 comes around."

Extending the negotiating period over 2 years would require an agreement from the EU, that is highly unlikely so all credibility will hinge on Article 50.

"The form of any withdrawal agreement would depend on the negotiations and there is therefore no guarantee the UK would find the terms acceptable. The EU Treaties would cease to apply to the UK on the entry into force of a withdrawal agreement or, if no new agreement is concluded, after two years, unless there is unanimous agreement to extend the negotiating period.

During the two-year negotiation period, EU laws would still apply to the UK. The UK would continue to participate in other EU business as normal, but it would not participate in internal EU discussions or decisions on its own withdrawal. On the EU side, the agreement would be negotiated by the European Commission following a mandate from EU ministers and concluded by EU governments acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament. This means that the European Parliament would be an additional unpredictable factor in striking a deal."

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/

there is of course one major problem here whatever the scenario - the UK doesn't actually have any negotiators.

There is also the perverse logic of our negotiating situation. Cameron went to EU and basically said if they didn't give UK certain things, they'd leave. He didn't get and they've left.........

Now they've got to turn round and say..Ok, so how about those things again?

Excuse me, what has the UK got to negotiate with? They've already done that....

Once brexit is triggered, we will have a huge amount with which to negotiate. Just the trade balance alone dictates that it's far more in the EU's (and Germany's in particular, who call all the EU shots anyway) interest to negotiate with us than it is ours to negotiate with them.

A significant part of the trade the UK does with the rest of the EU is not actually trade - its portioned transactions designed to dodge taxes.

By example: Buy coffee from Amazon, hand over your two pounds, be receive your coffee in the UK, but buy intellectual property rights for the use of the Starbucks logo from an entity in the Netherlands, the licence to use the Starbucks cup design from Ireland. the license to use the term 'Tall Americano' from Luxembourg.

The same goes for transactions with almost any high street multinational, for online stores like Avis, airlines, car hire companies &c.,

This 'Trade with the EU' is costing the UK billions, and because it goes on elsewhere in the EU costing EU nations Billions.

The EU are currently working on reframing EU wide tax laws to remove the loopholes that corporations use to do business in the EU without paying tax - That is do business in the UK without paying tax in the UK - To end the parasitic behaviour of the international corporations.

Not much discussion of this point by Brexit - perhaps because the people funding Brexit are the tax dodgers.

The very 'Elite' Brexit said it was fighting against.

EU countries are certainly not queuing up to sign trade agreements with the UK, as it's illegal for them to do so under EU law - despite this forming David Davis's main plan for post-brexit UK.

Another false statement from biker-boy!

Just watch it all unfold before your myopic eye. They will be gagging for it because they know their economies will to rat sh1t without us.

What SoiBiker has said is factually correct, individual EU member states cannot make their own trade agreements (You might recall this is one of the principle complaints of the Brexit campaign).

Jip99's response is to claim the legal fact of what SoiBiker says as false, but Jip99 provides no argument against the legal fact than offering his own speculation about future deals of which he, nor anybody on this forum has any knowledge, because they have not happened.

A problem with Jip99's speculated deals is the question 'why would an EU nation sign off on a deal for the UK to be able to continue business in the EU, when locking the UK out of the EU makes it very much easier to simply take the business from the UK and move it to an EU member state?'

^ Yes, I'm sure Germany has no contingency plans for selling us cars, engineering products, etc when we exit the EU .

Well, they won't be making any individual trade deals with us, because the EU forbids it.

The EU will do what Germany wants it to do .

That is speculation, but what is not speculation is the fact that once the UK gives up EU membership and its veto on EU laws and regulations, there is absolutely nothing the UK can do to stop Germany controlling the EU.

At the moment, the EU cannot enact a law or a regulation that the UK does not agree to - The UK has a veto.

^ Theresa May and Francois Hollande agree that border controls in Calais will stay despite Brexit:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/21/theresa-may-meets-francois-hollande-french-president-demands-pm/

Not much of a commitment if Hollande doesn't 'stay'.

Amd the same can be said for any agreement between politicians anywhere in the world. So your point is?

It was you that presented the agreement not me, I simply pointed out it cannot be relied upon.

I need make no point since it is clear you agree with me.

^ Theresa May and Francois Hollande agree that border controls in Calais will stay despite Brexit:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/21/theresa-may-meets-francois-hollande-french-president-demands-pm/

Not much of a commitment if Hollande doesn't 'stay'.

Though rather long, I found the attached article by John Lanchester rather insightful as to what led to brexit and the underlying problems the UK now faces.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n15/john-lanchester/brexit-blues

I read it ysterday, and found it utterly slanted and largely bereft of supporting evidence for it's myriad of contentious suppositions and assumptions. But it plays quite wittily to the Remainer crowd.

That's quite amusing coming from a Brexit supporter.

It's not over yet - no matter how much you want it to be. How about you stop whining about a perfectly reasonable debate and attempting to shut it down?

what debate? Only a couple of you on here keep going on 90% of us got what we wanted ,its over move on

Here we go again, though I notivmce the claimed percentage has gone up.

If it were over May would not have delayed signing Article 50 and would be able to proclaim the UK:

Free from EU laws and regulation

Free from the EU free movement of people

Free from having to pay for tge EU

These three simple Brexit promises are nowhere in sight and all other Brexit promises have been proven as lies.

Koun Tommy ,

Madam May , states she is not going to push any red button this year ,, if ever .??

Monsieur Hollande . will demand the UK are thrown out of the EU ...

I see no advantage for the EU to a hasty departure.

It is clear that faced with the reality the leaving leaders gradually abandon every campaign promise.

So we are moving slowly but surely towards the Norwegian model with exactly the same contribution, the same duties and also the same business benefits than others.

But without taking part in decisions.

May need time to convince Brexiters these realities. Its partners in UE are well aware. So there is a kind of role play between the accomplices responsible enabling she to save time.

The appointment of BJ Is there to calm the leaving supporters. But himself has already hinted that an identical status to Norway would be the least bad.

And I'll bet big here as the ultimate challenge for any discussions will to retain the UK's huge privelege managing the bulk of transactions at City.

When we understand the 'But without taking part in the decisions' as - without any control over the decisions, it is clear that the best deal Brexit can deliver is exactly the EU the Brexit campaign said we need to escape;

Brexit means Brexit, but apart from the assertion that a word means itself, there is little if any clear statement on what the political, social and trade aims of Brexit are - what the UK's relationship with the EU will be, and as you point out, a waiting game is being played.

Meanwhile the leaders of the two most powerful nations in the EU (Germany and France) have both stated that the UK shall not be given tariff free access to the EU without accepting the EU regulations on the free movement of people.

This is where the crunch is going to come when the tariff free access meets free movement of labour. If the EU puts up tariff barriers then we would do the same and then stop the free movement of labour seems the logical outcome. I am sure the HMG will have also noticed that this where the crunch is going to come and will have a look at what agreements have been made with other trading nations regarding tariffs and labour movements.

It would have been a good idea to have thought about this before making promises that Brexit would free the UK from the EU regulations on the free movement of people.

Its another Brexit promise that nobody has any idea how it can be delivered.

If Corbyn is as ineffectual and un-electable as the rightwing press constantly tell us, why then are they so obsessed with getting this message across?

Is it perhaps that the Labour Party has, in the past week alone, signed up more new members than there there members of the membership Conservative party?

We'll find out what that is all about when the Labour Party leadership vote comes in.

Koun Tommy ,

Madam May , states she is not going to push any red button this year ,, if ever .??

Monsieur Hollande . will demand the UK are thrown out of the EU ...

I see no advantage for the EU to a hasty departure.

It is clear that faced with the reality the leaving leaders gradually abandon every campaign promise.

So we are moving slowly but surely towards the Norwegian model with exactly the same contribution, the same duties and also the same business benefits than others.

But without taking part in decisions.

May need time to convince Brexiters these realities. Its partners in UE are well aware. So there is a kind of role play between the accomplices responsible enabling she to save time.

The appointment of BJ Is there to calm the leaving supporters. But himself has already hinted that an identical status to Norway would be the least bad.

And I'll bet big here as the ultimate challenge for any discussions will to retain the UK's huge privelege managing the bulk of transactions at City.

When we understand the 'But without taking part in the decisions' as - without any control over the decisions, it is clear that the best deal Brexit can deliver is exactly the EU the Brexit campaign said we need to escape;

Brexit means Brexit, but apart from the assertion that a word means itself, there is little if any clear statement on what the political, social and trade aims of Brexit are - what the UK's relationship with the EU will be, and as you point out, a waiting game is being played.

Meanwhile the leaders of the two most powerful nations in the EU (Germany and France) have both stated that the UK shall not be given tariff free access to the EU without accepting the EU regulations on the free movement of people.

In any game or vote there will be winners and losers, if you decide to take that challenge up there is by definition a risk, you might win and you might lose and you have to be prepared for the result.

In the referendum issue, it seems, that remainers cannot abide with the loss, they seem to somehow taken it very personally and cannot come to terms with the result, which was I remind you that the UK voted to leave the EU.

It would be really very sporting if you could all just accept that you lost.

I dont accept you ever will though it grates with you all doesn't it?

For better or for worse and today Mark Carney has said (express for those who must have the source)that the BOE has not detected any slowdown in the UK economy. Despite what the doom makers and scaremongers have said the UK is doing ok.

Most losers accept defeat with good grace, unless of course you are an armchair warrior, perhaps you should get out more.

You are entirely correct, as a pro-EU remain supporter, I am not at all happy with the result of the referendum.

But the referendum is not legally binding and while the UK remains a parliamentary democracy I still have the right to object to decisions being made by a non legally binding referendum and I shall exercise my rights in the UK democracy to protest, voice my opinion and lobby my MP against Brexit.

You may have enjoy your glorious moment of gloating the side of the referendum you support won the vote, but you cannot argue against my right to continue petitioning and arguing for the UK to remain in the EU and still call yourself a democrat.

You are right ,you do have the right to keep on moaning and complaining ,so why dont you and soi biker go off and form a complainers club and start a petition , but sorry to say you lost ,just like Labour lost the last election and if Corbyn stays in charge will lose the next . so do us a favour go away ,you lost ya sucks

I can't speak for Soi Biker, but I have no wish to go off and start any kind of a club, as a member here on TVF I am able (within the rules of the forum) able to express all the views I wish.

That you choose to categorize my views as 'moaning and complaining' is a matter of your own choice but rather odd that you continue to bother reading that which so clearly upsets you.

Perhaps you are not so assured of your 'victory' as you would have us believe, if you were, then surely my opinions would not matter a jot to you.

They clearly do, and I thank you for taking the time to read and respond - its what a forum is all about.

In any game or vote there will be winners and losers, if you decide to take that challenge up there is by definition a risk, you might win and you might lose and you have to be prepared for the result.

In the referendum issue, it seems, that remainers cannot abide with the loss, they seem to somehow taken it very personally and cannot come to terms with the result, which was I remind you that the UK voted to leave the EU.

It would be really very sporting if you could all just accept that you lost.

I dont accept you ever will though it grates with you all doesn't it?

For better or for worse and today Mark Carney has said (express for those who must have the source)that the BOE has not detected any slowdown in the UK economy. Despite what the doom makers and scaremongers have said the UK is doing ok.

Most losers accept defeat with good grace, unless of course you are an armchair warrior, perhaps you should get out more.

You are entirely correct, as a pro-EU remain supporter, I am not at all happy with the result of the referendum.

But the referendum is not legally binding and while the UK remains a parliamentary democracy I still have the right to object to decisions being made by a non legally binding referendum and I shall exercise my rights in the UK democracy to protest, voice my opinion and lobby my MP against Brexit.

You may have enjoy your glorious moment of gloating the side of the referendum you support won the vote, but you cannot argue against my right to continue petitioning and arguing for the UK to remain in the EU and still call yourself a democrat.

You are entirely correct, you are entitled to your view and to exercise it.

By the way I am looking for somewhere to stay for few nights on my return to the UK how much do you charge a night inc breakfast?

You seem to be under the misunderstanding that I work in the hospitality business, I do not, nor am I Humphrey Bogart.

But I am in the UK at the moment, my third trip in as many months.

B&B is widely available, and I'm pleased to say the levels of service have improved dramatically - though you'll not meet any 'English' service staff 'service' being one of those areas of work they feel beneath themselves.

This is all a bit boring now.

Nobody is going to change their minds, and it's just the usual crew putting people who don't agree with them down.

The mods should close all the Brexit threads down, or just leave one open.

I'd much rather the threads were left running, there's been a lot of unequivocal statements on both sides of the argument - it is going to make interesting reading coming back to these in a year or two's time.

In any game or vote there will be winners and losers, if you decide to take that challenge up there is by definition a risk, you might win and you might lose and you have to be prepared for the result.

In the referendum issue, it seems, that remainers cannot abide with the loss, they seem to somehow taken it very personally and cannot come to terms with the result, which was I remind you that the UK voted to leave the EU.

It would be really very sporting if you could all just accept that you lost.

I dont accept you ever will though it grates with you all doesn't it?

For better or for worse and today Mark Carney has said (express for those who must have the source)that the BOE has not detected any slowdown in the UK economy. Despite what the doom makers and scaremongers have said the UK is doing ok.

Most losers accept defeat with good grace, unless of course you are an armchair warrior, perhaps you should get out more.

You are entirely correct, as a pro-EU remain supporter, I am not at all happy with the result of the referendum.

But the referendum is not legally binding and while the UK remains a parliamentary democracy I still have the right to object to decisions being made by a non legally binding referendum and I shall exercise my rights in the UK democracy to protest, voice my opinion and lobby my MP against Brexit.

You may have enjoy your glorious moment of gloating the side of the referendum you support won the vote, but you cannot argue against my right to continue petitioning and arguing for the UK to remain in the EU and still call yourself a democrat.

Farage himself said that 52% against would be a reason to fight on regardless.

Personally I'm not sure brexit will ever happen. It'll get passed around like a political hot potato until an excuse presents itself to forget the whole thing somehow.

Now,all sing together,dream,dream,dream,oh dream,dream dream dream, well you know how the old song goes, its over,live with it

You and I both know it's not over.

It's over ,stop living in your fantasy, you lost now get on with your life,stop dreaming

The outcome of May's meeting with Merkal was very clear, its not over, its not even started.

Germany's chancellor supports May's position that the UK needs to take its time and not rush into enacting Article 50 while stating categorically that withdrawing from the EU's 'Freedom of movement' is not an option if the UK wants tariff free access to the EU markets.

Another Brexit promise made that cannot be delivered.

Unfortunately it would be a further 34 years before she was dead.

But the last ten years of her life are the ones I like to think of when I think of Thatcher.

perhaps you and soi biker could get together and have a 2 man party

Feeling got are you?

Whether Brexit happens or not someone needs to make a decision soonest at to get all the markets stabilised. Either way people will be annoyed/upset so just get on with it

Get on with what?

Brexit had no plan, Brexit has no plan.

Farage himself said that 52% against would be a reason to fight on regardless.

Personally I'm not sure brexit will ever happen. It'll get passed around like a political hot potato until an excuse presents itself to forget the whole thing somehow.

Now,all sing together,dream,dream,dream,oh dream,dream dream dream, well you know how the old song goes, its over,live with it

You and I both know it's not over.

High Court to hear legal challenge to Brexit

Senior judges Sir Brian Leveson, president of the Queens bench division, and Mr Justice Cranston will hear that a judicial review application has been lodged over whether Theresa May, the prime minister, has the power to serve notice of withdrawal from the EU under Article 50 or whether she will need a vote in parliament approving withdrawal.

https://next.ft.com/content/52e562fe-4cff-11e6-8172-e39ecd3b86fc

I wonder whether either of the main parties dare risk an 'open vote' on this one ?

May is clearly waiting for the impacts to bite.

If house prices fall (as is expected) it will be game over for Brexit.

And who decided what "ill informed" means?

However well informed or not you are is not the issue, everyone on the electoral roll has the option to vote, how they make their mind up is up to them, you or I might try an influence them but then its up to the individual to weigh things up for themselves and cast their vote or not.

The Court case will not be won by the bad losers, the implications for the future do bear thinking about.

Ill informed is not a decision, though it was definite decision by the leaders of the Brexit campaign to misinform, lie and use racism and xenophobia in their campaign.

They, the Brexit leaders have all fled the scene and their lies are tunmling one after another.

PM May is showing no eagerness to sign Article 50 and has cunningly put an idiot (former Brexit leader and proven liar) in charge of dealing with the 'international community' while putting her rival (and Brexiteer) in charge of explaining Brexit to the UK's most powerful lobby group, the UK's farmers.

If I wee a Brexiteer I might start to worry that the non legally binding referrendum result is going to lead nowhere.

Which is precisely why the Brexit leaders have fled the scene.

The most you can hope for is a right wing onslaught on worker's rights, welfare and the NHS.

Victory?!

Thats an interesting slant on democracy, oh, I think 52% of the UK would disagree with you also.

Let's see how it plays out in the UK democracy, rather than on TVF.

Even intelligent people seem to assume that trade with Europe will cease. It won't.

At worst it will be subject to tariffs and access may be more difficult. The biggest factor may be panic and negative sentiment creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

The biggest problem is letting go of the bird in one hand in the hope of catching two birds you believe are in the bush, but can't see and have no idea or plan on how to catch them if you could.

In the face of these difficulties, blame the very people who warned against the ilasvised course of actuon you chose to take.

Brexit was the decision of Brexit supportes - own it!