drtreelove

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 7:53 AM, notagain said:

Read This

HLB_FarmerGuide.pdf 2.44 MB · 1 download

That's an amazing paper. thanks. 

I was out of touch and didn't know about the biological controls that have been explored. I'm not sure this could be achieved without a big gov backed program.  Unless its a very large orchard or community cooperative, biological control agents can get wiped out by overspray from a neighboring farm. 

I am pesimistic about practicality of some of the excellent program components and availability for Thailand.  Most of the sophisticated new biopesticide materials are not available here.  And those that are may not get enough percentage of control to satisfy local growers.

I like this:

-The important takeaway message from these studies and

publications is that:

-Insecticides approved for organic production use can

work almost as well as standard synthetic insecticides

but provide control for a shorter period.

-OMRI approved insecticides should be applied in

rotation and diligently in response to insect scouting

and sampling counts that meet action thresholds;

this could mean every 2 weeks.

-OMRI approved horticultural oils not only provided

strong control (80% adult mortality in some studies)

when used alone but can increase adult ACP mortality

to 97% when combined with other products such

as M-Pede or Grandevo.

(M-Pede is a commercial brand of insecticidal soap.)

Combine with horticultural oil is something I didn't mention before but I've used this tank mix for other pest issues with great success.

This paper indicates that insecticide and oil mix has longer residual than botanicals or soap alone. And this combo may be the most affordable. 97%, can't touch that with anything else.

The one thing I don't buy with some of this thinking, is the old "which comes first" scenario, in this case it's the bacterium or the psyllid. This article seems to indicate that the plant is weakened by the bacterial infection and then the infestation by the psyllid occurs after the fact. I don't think so.

I'm not a scientist, just an old tree worker since I was a kid, evolved over the years into tree doctor, trying to figure out the nitty gritty of what I'm working with. Unless we're talking about an occult phenomenon, or some science that I don't yet understand, for a bacterial disease to be present in plant tissues, it would have had to have a method of entry, a path of introduction; it doesn't just manifest out of nowhere. Spores can be blown in the wind and rain, honey bees can introduce through flowers (fireblight), wounding can open a path of entry, or sometimes spores can land on bark tissues and create lesions that progress into systemic infections (bacterial cankers).

From what I've read from University of Florida and U California, from China and other research, it's been pretty well established that the Asian citrus psyllid is the primary vector of the HLB bacteria. It's a sucking insect that feeds on infected plants and then flies and feeds on uninfected plants where it inserts mouth parts and fluids and through that path of entry introduces the bacterium into the new plant. As far as I know, no other path of entry has been established. Tell me if I'm wrong.

The the susceptibility of the plant to infestation as well as for the bacterium to thrive, is where I join in the notion that growing conditions, soil and water management are fundamental issues. Detrimental practices also come into play, like years of hard chemistry applications in the form of chemical pesticides and high NPK fertlizers that disrupt soil health and the processes of nutrient assimilation.

It takes time and money to rebuild soil health after detrimental practices are discontinued. From my experience, with the "high nutrient density" approach (Albrecht school), with soil testing, prescribed mineral and biological amendments, building soil organic matter, mulching and intellilgent water management, some positive results will be seen right away, but it really starts to kick in with best results in about two years. That's when you start to see a reall drop off in pest and disease incidence, due to building of plant resistance.

If you are committed to a comprehensive organic program, no hard chemistry pesticides or fertilizers, intelligent soil and water management and IPM, during that two year period of time, it is especially important to keep up with a preventive spray program to deter the feeding by the disease vector, the ACP. Unfortunately, soft chemistry botanical insect pest repellents don't have a long residual effectiveness.  This means spraying neem or another botanical will have to be done every two weeks, or every week during high risk periods of the pest life cycle.  But it makes an organic program time consuming and expensive.

Azadirachtin (neem extract) concentrates are available, and are effective as a repellent, feeding and reproductive disruptor, but they are not cheap, especially with two week interval applications. Then there is wood vinegar and some other botanicals available, with which i don't have much experience. Aromatic oils, rosemary, clove, lemon grass, etc, some which you can make yourself, may be effective. They would be appropriate for citrus because the residual oils and odors would not be as much of an issue as it is with produce or thin skinned fruits that would have to be washed.

In my opinion, the spraying or injection of anti-biotics is unnecessary for HLB, unless it is ever proved that the bacterium enter through the flowers or by any other path than the psyllid feeding.  If you can keep the psyllids off the plants and from feeding, then there will be no bacteria in or on the plant to make anti-biotics an appropriate method of control.

This approach that I've suggested is concerned with prevention, for plants not yet infected. Pro-active vs reactive. The article that Grollies presented was oriented to curing active infections and declining/dying plants. Thats a tall order and something I have not been involved with.  But I like their approach of stopping detrimental practices and building soil health as a primary concerns for rebuilding plant health.  A proprietary curative formula? I guess everybody has to have something to sell in order to make ends meet.   

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 5:58 PM, xtrnuno41 said:

Any insecticide is poison, so can effect ALL living creatures.

 

Hog wash ! you have no idea what you are talking about. There are many "soft chemistry" materials classified as "insecticides" that are far from harmful to "all living creatures".. There are long standing botanical pesticides that have been used in organic gardening and farming for decades, and there is a whole new generation of bio-insecticides and biological fungicides that are derived from naturally occuring botanical extracts, benefical bacteria and fungi and other plant pest control substances.  And also, there are methods of application that are specific and targeted and don't contaminate the larger environment or food products.

Here's a few available in the US with OMRI listing, with some available in Thailand under different names. Read the product descriptions and get an education.

INSECTICIDES:

https://www.planetnatural.com/pest-problem-solver/

https://www.domyown.com/monterey-70-neem-oil-p-2841.html

https://www.planetnatural.com/product/azamax-azadirachtin/

https://www.planetnatural.com/neem-benefits/

Beauveria bassiana, an entomopathogenic fungus that attacks a long-list of troublesome crop pests (not plants) like aphids, thrips, whitefly, spider mites, mealybugs, root aphids and more!

https://www.planetnatural.com/product/botanigard-es-insecticide/

https://www.domyown.com/bioceres-wp-p-17144.html

Metarhizium anisopliae is a naturally occurring fungus — not genetically modified — found in soils worldwide. Once the spores come in contact with susceptible insects they penetrate the cuticle or exoskeleton and begin to grow inside, causing the insect to die.

https://www.planetnatural.com/product/met52-ec/

https://www.novozymes.com/en/advance-your-business/agriculture/crop-production/crop-production-met52

https://www.domyown.com/foxfarm-bush-doctor-force-of-nature-miticide-p-17475.html

https://www.planetnatural.com/product/monterey-garden-insect-spray-spinosad/

https://www.domyown.com/bonide-all-seasons-horticultural-spray-oil-p-1525.html

https://www.domyown.com/bonide-insecticidal-soap-rtu-p-1667.html

https://www.domyown.com/evergreen-pyrethrum-concentrate-p-1875.html

https://www.domyown.com/monterey-bt-insecticide-p-2821.html

https://www.domyown.com/essentria-general-household-spray-p-1957.html

https://www.domyown.com/ecovia-ec-p-9660.html

You probably won't find Thai pest control companies using these, so it's best to do your own. 

What the more resonsible and trained PC operator's here use for outdoor perimeter spraying to keep down ants, cockroaches, centipedes etc, and for indoor base board spraying for ants and cockroaches, is usually pyrethroids, like cypermethrin.  This is low toxicity for mammals, with re-entry designated for as soon as the material dries. Cats are most sensitive to pyrethroids but it takes a relatively high concentration to affect a cat, not at the low concentrations used for pest control. The material is so dilute if mixed according to product label rates, that it is not going to cause any negative effects or poisoned pets. Except, as others have pointed out, most hard chemistry pesticides are extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.  Foliar sprays should take into account and avoid pollinator foraging periods. honeybees.

There are some PC operators who spray the whole garden and not just the targeted ant trails and common entry points, and some that still use older generation toxic pesticides like organophosphates and carbamates. Some of those can make you or your dog sick with direct exposure.

Termite control through the underground closed systems are usually with fipronil or fenucarb. "Closed system" is the key term, these should not be sprayed in an open environment, but some PC operators may do so. One PCO in Chiang Mai, when I asked what he was using, proudly showed me his fenucarb training certificate and appeared very responsible about his work and avoiding environmental contamination.

I don't know it all but I do have some experience and extensive training and licensing from Calfornia, one of the most strict jurisdictions. You can forward questions or copy of PCO proposal and materials and I will be happy to review and comment to the best of my abilitiy.

Home Pro has some sweet little plastic hand-held pump up sprayers, white with green top, and the yellow with blue is really nice, and they have some organic program compatible insecticides, wood vinegar and citronella and neem. I keep the yellow one with eucalyptus and citronella extracts for outdoor mosquito repellent spraying around doors and windows. I just started growing some lemon grass to make my own.  And the clear white sprayer to mix Chaindrite Stefast (bifenthrin a pyrethroid) for monthly outdoor barrier sprays for ant trails, cockroach and centipede home entry points, doorway thresholds.  I keep a can of Chaindrite Crack and Crevice for spot spraying.  Most of our pest control is accomplished with cleanliness, sanitation and exclusion, fully screened and pestering my family to keep doors and windows closed. We have big water monitor lizards that come around, but thats another catergory.

Not my area of expertise, but my wife is a real estate agent and I've seen how she works.  Theoretically, you go to the Provincial Land Office  with chanote in hand and make an enquiry. But depending on how busy that department is, and if your agent is a regular or not, you may be in for a long wait, unless you have a connection inside. So you often need an "expediter".

For serious deals in the works she has an associate who is an attorney for a major bank main office, property financing department, who gives her bank repo properties to list for sale. He moonlights and helps her with legal and financial issues for other deals. He's on her side and gets the chanote cleared before they do much of anything. I don't know exactly his process on that. I think he's on speed dial with someone on the inside.

But when she is just deciding whether to accept a listing or not and needs to check on a chanote and legit ownership and encumberances, and she needs it right away, she doesn't always use her bank attorney friend.  She usually doesn't want to take me along for this, she says it will cost her more, but I've been a couple of times.  There is a side street next to the local land office with a row of food stalls. There will usually be one or two shady looking lawyers/fixers sitting there drinking/eating/ talking. Or if not, she rings one to meet her there and they show up within a half hour or so.  She chats them up, hands them the documents and I think a brown note or two in an envelope. He goes around the corner into the office and comes back out in about 20 minutes with the info.

Mike thanks for revealing the bit about the gardener and the 15-15-15, it confirms my suspicion. It is something that many growers just don't get, especially those who are working with old information and are not keeping up on the new agriculture. Because it's deceiving, high NPK gets good growth response, but at the expense of throwing off the soil mineral and biological balance, depleting other nutrients that aren't recognized and are not replenished, but which are important for plant resistance to pests and disease. The high salts dessicate roots, which increases water stress, which invites pest pressure.  The harsh chemicals negatively affect beneficial soil biology that is so important for assimilation of nutrients and defense against soil borne pathogens. You think green is good and you're doing something right, and it's cheap, but then you wake up and your plants are covered in pests. And neem doesn't work and you scramble to find something stronger to kill them. Its a viscious cycle, and the reason for so much unneccesary pesticide use and food contamination.

It's not just my idea, here is an interview that demonstrates state-of-the-art agronomy and the preventive approach that focuses on soil health as the first line of management:

"There is no doubt about it. The mismanagement of nitrogen is the biggest player. If you want pests and disease, just start pouring on the nitrogen. Growers put too much importance on this mineral. My most successful growers focus upon having their nitrogen as low as possible."

https://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/interview-with-a-master-agronomist-stephan-timmermans/

Here's a couple of other new generation biopesticide options that are now available in Thailand:

Through the links to US sources you can read the product descriptions. And I will attached some pics of products that I took in an ag shop in Chiang Mai.

For the foliar pests I would go with the Beauveria, for soil and compost grubs including coconut rhinoceros beetle, I would use the Metarhizium (green muscaridine fungus).

This is a new and rapidly developing product catergory. Those who use "pesticides" as a dirty word across the board should take note and get educated in new environmentally friendly and sustaninable biopesticide technologies being developed due to popular demand and a huge potential market.

Beauveria bassiana, an entomopathogenic fungus that attacks a long-list of troublesome crop pests (not plants) like aphids, thrips, whitefly, spider mites, mealybugs, root aphids and more!

https://www.planetnatural.com/product/botanigard-es-insecticide/

https://www.domyown.com/bioceres-wp-p-17144.html

Metarhizium anisopliae is a naturally occurring fungus — not genetically modified — found in soils worldwide. Once the spores come in contact with susceptible insects they penetrate the cuticle or exoskeleton and begin to grow inside, causing the insect to die.

https://www.planetnatural.com/product/met52-ec/

8 hours ago, moe666 said:

yes Dr. Don on Suk 23 you can google him my last phone number for office is 022580350

When i was looking last year, I was told that Dr Don passed away.

I highly recommend Mark Leoni and his physical therapy team. He is an American expat trained and experienced in the US, practicing here for many years. He is highly professional and effective.  His is not a straight chiropractic, quick fix adjustment approach, but a thorough assessment and comprehensive treatment program. And he refers to medical doctors and hospital labs when appropriate.

His office is in gated MooBan 5 minutes walk from OnNut BTS, or you can park on the street at the office.

I have seen insecticidal soap at a specialty organic farm shop, but its not widely available. You can make your own. Here is one article.  Be sure to note the type of soap recommended. And even though it is "organic" program compatible, protect your eyes and use conservatively, target active pests only, don't spra the whole frikkin garden. ????

https://www.hortmag.com/weekly-tips/pests-diseases/mix-your-own-insecticidal-soap-for-garden-pests

Standard personal protection, even with bio-pesticides, is long sleeve shirt and long pants, shoes/boots and socks, chemical resistant gloves and eye protection. Shower after application.

Wood vinegar is a more widely available organic program pesticide here. My local Home Pro had two brands on the shelf in the garden section last week when I was buying molasses to brew some EM. In high concentrations it a weed killer, so take note of mixing rates and use conservatively.

My wife is an agent with a major brokerage in Bangkok. They have listings in the locations you mention.  I'll PM you with contact information.

I'll ask my friend; he grows wild when he sees it ????

7 hours ago, Jane Dough said:

There is nothing sensational about this headline at all. It just states the facts as ascertained from the CMN report. There was no word of any witnesses.

 

Rooster

Damage to the poor tree, was sensational to me ????

On 2/14/2019 at 12:29 PM, drtreelove said:

 

Arjen is right that  you could use a fresh made hole to stem inject a systemic insecticide. 

 

Further afterthought: you would need to apply injection material immediately after making the hole while the conductive vessels were still viable for absorption. If you waited until the tissues dried out the material would not be taken up effectively. 

My choice as least invasive, over gouging a huge hole in the trunk to chase an adult beetle or weevil larvae, would be to shoot a spot spray of Chaindrite Crack and Crevice deep in the hole with the long, thin nozzle that comes with the aerosol can. The cypermethrin and bifenthrin active ingredients are low toxicity and with this method there would be almost no environmental or applicator personal exposure. 

Maybe Cooked can help with tips on mixing a solution, what concentration is effective for what plants and pests. And what is the residual effectiveness, same as most botanical biopesticides, a week or two, or longer? 

On 2/4/2019 at 9:51 AM, Arjen said:

Well that are the ones....

Be prepared much from your trees will be affected soon....

Please seek some professional advise.

Arjen.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1084193-pheromones-for-rhino-beetle/?tab=comments#comment-13842805

Here's some more info from farming forum. and there are other past discussions on this and farming forums. 

Photo shown here is not rhino beetle larvae.

Arjen is right that  you could use a fresh made hole to stem inject a systemic insecticide. 

I don't agree that it is necessary to fill a hole, or to prevent water in the hole, only for cosmetic reasons. 

I would not create a big hole to dig out suspected CRB or red palm weevil. Use less invasive technique of management. 

Learn to overcome ignorant negativity about safe and effective pesticide use, and choose non toxic or least toxic biorational methods and materials. Or learn to live without palms.  

3 hours ago, sometime said:

Because they are killing my foxtail palms

For ornamental palms you may consider a barrier insecticide application for prevention, and/or a systemic insecticide soil drench for root uptake. 

Pyrethroids like a cypermethrin and bifenthrin combination are inexpensive and low toxicity for mammals, and provide a month or more of residual effectiveness as a barrier if you drench the growing point and upper tree trunk with a spray solution. It binds to the surface organic matter and provides a barrier for new beetle activity, but does not penetrate tissues and go systemic for beetles that are already in the tree. 

Botanical (organic program) biopesticides like the neem seed extract 'Azadirachtin' are a repellent barrier and are widely available and non-toxic but more expensive and require frequent repeated spray applications, every week during high risk periods of activity.  

Feasibility of spraying is dependent on size of palms and spray equipment to reach the tops. 

Starkle-G (dinotefuran) is a widely available, potent, neonicotinoid, low toxicity systemic insecticide that is fast acting for uptake. With a soil drench application or injection there is minimal environmental contamination or danger for exposure to pollinators.  Acephate is somewhat available, and is even faster and more effective and cheaper. It is low toxicity for mammals but a stinky older generation organophosphate systemic insecticide. Either of these systemics can be stem-injected for minimal material and environmental exposure. Acephate or secondly, StarkleG would be my choice for immediate control of an active infestation for non-food ornamental palms. Not appropriate for coconut or oil palms. With this method you can save a palm that is under beetle attack, where bait traps, sanitation and biological control are longer term preventive measures. 

I can't answer your question but i do have some information and experience with CRB control methods and materials and I would be happy to share if you are interested.  I don't think bait traps are widely used here, and there are some limitations.

Bait traps for CRB and fruit flies etc are usually marginally effective and only get a percentage of the population, still allowing for significant infestation. A combination of methods is usually most effective. Sanitation (removing dead and dying palms and cleaning up downed wood waste debris) and netting compost and manure piles to prevent the adult beetles from flying out to the palm crowns from the ground breeding sites, being major management essentials, along with chemical or biological control. Maybe that is what you are doing. 

On 1/30/2019 at 9:28 AM, thaiguzzi said:

Yawn.

Give it a rest will ya.

In 15 years the only person who has worked/driven a tractor on our 64 rai (approx 25 acres) is, wait for it... me.

I think the heads up notes are appropriate for advising a newbie.  Of course you can get away with it, but in fact it is illegal.  You can jump the border and live for years, you can drive drunk without a license or insurance, you can get away with a lot of things, until something happens and you get busted and then you're screwed. I'm a calculated risk taker, but I don't advise anyone else to be. 

On 1/27/2019 at 4:50 PM, Cashboy said:

I didn't realise there was anything grown organicly in Thailand by the way they throw chemicals on everything and have no idea what Crop Rotation is.

 

They?  Referring to all of Thailand?  You are only partially right. You may be surprised at some progressive organic programs you would find if you look.