drtreelove

Check this out:

15 hours ago, kickstart said:

Look at patipong .com they sell wood chippers ,they are near Bangkok.

Also Sriyont in Chiang Mai

Wat Gate district, east road along Ping River

On 10/9/2019 at 4:02 AM, 007 RED said:

@drtreelove.... Once again many thanks for your input, its very much appreciated. 

 

I'm certainly interested in the range of COF that are available from Organic Totto.  Looking at their website ( https://www.organictotto.com/ ), it appears that you can purchase their products online.  However, as the shop is relatively easy to get to from our home Nakon Pathom, we will take a ride out there next week and have a look.  No doubt Mrs MoneyBaht will be doing some shopping and I foresee that we will come back home with a boot full of COF.

PM me if you want my wife and daughter contact info. They know the shop and one or both of them may take you there. Try to see the English speaking owner manager, I forget her name. She also runs their organic farm in Phichit province.  Tell Mrs MoneyBaht to buy some of their EM too. 

Oh, I just realized, Nakhon Pathom, you are right down the road from the bone meal factory.  Connect with Evolare and his wife. They have a lot of good materials to get you started on your own COF. That's where I buy most of mine.  

And attached is an excerpt from Steve Solimon's book. from the chapter on COF.  

But dude, if ya ain't 'merican, ya gotta do the math. 

84 The Intelligent Gardener.pdf

On 10/9/2019 at 7:56 AM, Grumpy John said:

Heavy watering is #2 on my list.  I am leaning to Anthracnose as #1.   We spray fungicide, started today, for several potential problems.  Surrounded by other mango farms we have to assume every potential problem will hit our orchard at sometime or another.   Last year we still lost some fruit due to splitting.  Some say another cause is insects burrowing into the fruit which leads to splitting but I am not convinced of that.  I think that will cause the fruit to rot, not split.

I'm with Red, I don't think in his case it is anthracnose.  The water issue can be not only heavy watering, but rapid changes, from dry conditons to wet, or visa versa. 

But I'm curious, what fungicide are you using? What are the "several potential problems"?  What is the timing in relation to the stage of the problems? Are you spraying proactively, for potential perceived problems, or do you have early signs, or advanced conditions? The use of fungicides should be specific, for the target pathogen, and the timing has to be appropriate for the stage of the disease.  Otherwise you are guessing and maybe wasting material and money.  If you are striving to transition into organic methods and materials, some fungal diseases can be prevented with biological fungicides, avoiding the heavy hitters, chemical fungicides.  And high nutrient density soil improvements will help with plant resistance to disease. 

Post or PM and I'll help best I can. 

Yes, complete information is not always easy to come by.  That article is written by Steve Solomon, author of the book The Intelligent Gardener, in which he has a whole chapter on COF. But even there, I had to study it and try to pull out a formula with products that I could get my hands on. And that is an issue in Thailand, availability of products that are mentioned in articles from other countries are not always available. And some authors don't want to give away details of their proprietary formula that comprises products they sell. 

I make my own COF, but found it hard to find all the ingredients I wanted in Thailand, and believe me I tried. It's getting better with AMD www.bonemeal.net building their product line.  But It took me a couple of years and a paid course of study with Michael Astera, author of The Ideal Soil, in writing soil amendment prescriptions before I found an "ideal" recipe from products I could source.  

There is a good, ready made COF in "bokashi" form (Japanese technology, EM embellished and minerailized compost)  that is made and sold in Samut Prakan.  Organic Totto is the company. I have given the website here before and location, last was in the discussion on EM ("what is this stuff good for") I don't know if you can order online yet.  The company is located near where we live so I just pick some up when I need it.  Samut Prakan is the neighboring province to Bangkok, along the gulf coast at the mouth of the Chao Praya River. The company is near the "crocodile farm", near the end of the BTS Sukhumvit line between Kheha station and Sai Luat. A 25 kilo sack of their blue bag Bokashi COF sells for 350 baht. Before I was making my own, I used this fertilizer and was happy with results.  I also gave some to friends and even trialed some at my friends organic rice farm in Chiang Mai.  It is slow release, so you can't expect an immediate big flush of growth like with a high N chemical fertilizer.  But when it kicks in, that complete range of nutrients produces a balanced growth, luster and productivity, and resistance to pests and diseases, that only comes from healthy well nourished plants with good water management. .

6 hours ago, Tayaout said:

I got this one not too long ago from lazada. 

 

Clonex flies off the shelves here in California cannabis growers supply shops. 

But another option that I think is far better, from soaking seeds for germination, for every stage of plant development.  I use it regularly in my liquid fertilizer solutions and for rejuvenating root growth in damaged and stressed trees.  It is an organic root stimulation formula, kelp, humic acid, amino acid product: Essential Plus from Growth Products.  I had a Thailand supplier contact, but can't find it. 

https://www.domyown.com/essential-plus-natural-organic-root-and-plant-stimulator-p-17620.html

2 hours ago, 007 RED said:

Many thanks for your comments and attached link.  Both are helpful.

 

I'm aware that most plants/trees don't like their roots sitting in water, and if this was the case, I would have expected to see the leaves turn yellow.  In my case, yes we have had some fairly heavy tropical downpours during the past couple of months but the soil has never been saturated and on digging a hole (2/3ft deep) nearby indicated that water was draining away freely.  Also the leaves on both trees appear very healthy.

 

I have mulched around both trees with rice husks and ground coconut shells in order to keep weeds an bay and I've used proprietary fertilizers as per instruction on the packet.  

 

I should be grateful for any advice you could give (in lay person terms) on how to "build soil organic matter content and high nutrient density with mineral and biological amendments" as per your comments.

The mulching is a good start.  And then there is a new attitude in the world around fertilizers, avoiding high NPK chemisty and going with slow release mineralized COF:  https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/garden-fertilizer-zmaz06jjzraw

CLW, guess work recommendations on pesticide use is less than responsible in my opinion. 

It only takes a little bit of homework searching to get some better information on what you are suggesting.

Emamectin is derived from a bacterium, not a fungus. 

Emamectin benzoate is toxic to birds, mammals, fish and other aquatic organisms

Emamectin benzoate can enter the body either by inhalation of air containing emamectin benzoate, ingestion of contaminated food or water, or by dermal contact with emamectin benzoate. There is little evidence as to the full effects of exposure to emamectin benzoate on human health. However, exposure to emamectin benzoate may cause irritation of the respiratory tract, eyes and skin. Animal studies suggest that exposure to emamectin benzoate may also cause tremors.

Slugs 11, presence of leaf damage is not enough information to decide on if treatment is needed or not. Taking damaged leaves to an ag shop or other pesticide experts will lead to advise on pesticide use and not necessarily appropriate treatment or timing.  You must determine the actual pest and the present stage of life cycle and if it is still there and feeding. If not, you will be spraying and contaminating your land for no good reason. Caterpillars, if actually present and feeding, are relatively easy to control with a contact insecticide spray. A pyrethroid, like cypermethrin may be the least expensive. 

Leaf damage does not always mean crop damage. Don't overreact and reach for the sprayer when in fact the feeding stage of the pest  may be past by the time you notice the damage.  Learn what pests affect your crop and get to know the life cycles and stage of development for optimal intervention. "It looks like a lava of maybe caterpillar or moth, however not sure." Do you see larvae feeding at this time? (or caterpillars/same thing) (A moth is a adult and does not feed on the plant, it lays eggs that hatch into larvae/caterpillars that feed.) B.t. is excellent for caterpillar control and totally non-toxic, but the timing has to be spot on, during early stages of development. If you are not sure if the pest is present now or not, then B.t. or other pesticide use is not appropriate and may be a waste. 

If you are using high NPK chemical fertilizers to push a bumper crop, and not building the soil, then you will most certainly have continual pest problems, . Be ready for that. Monitor daily so that you can intervene at an early stage, before plant damage is extensive. Chemical farming is a vicious cycle of increasing chemical inputs, fertilizers and pesticides. 

On 10/4/2019 at 10:23 PM, cooked said:

To my inexperienced eye this is due to heavy irrigation after a long dry season.

You are too humble, and in fact highly experienced, and I believe you have hit on the most likely cause of the splitting. 

Disorders like this are rarely due to one factor only, comprehensive soil and water management should be considered. 

I suspect nutrient deficiencies are also a contributing factor. What have you done for building soil organic matter content and high nutrient density with mineral and biological amendments?  

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/fruit-splitting-95694.html

23 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

DrTreeLove I see what you mean.  Will see if I can find more info about it on Youtube.   

 

Sadly NPK manufactured fertiliser is what a lot of mango farmers are using.  We use it but would like not to.  On the 780 trees we currently add 80kg of 46-0-0 and 150kg of 15-15-15 mixed together, after pruning.  Another 150kg 15-15-15 + 50kg of Magnesium Sulphate in July and once we have flowers (this month) 150kg of 13-13-24 + 50kg of Magnesium Sulphate (up from 0kg last year).  From the end of October onward it's all foliar sprayed with some Boron, Iron, Manganese, Zinc and Magnesium Sulphate.....which is where the wife and I differ.  I say Boron, Iron, Manganese and Zinc should be added earlier.....and added in small amounts with the NPK.....but I don't win every arguement! ????  We had the soil tested this year.  Surprisingly the report was pretty good.  The only element that was a bit high was Potassium.  Everything else within range. 

 

But times they are achangin' and we like a lot of other growers need to change too!

With that many trees you have a big investment, and the economics of your fertilizer inputs are a major consideration. It a far bigger game than my hobby farm was, with 1 rai and 55 mango trees. 

I would suggest that you contact Evolare, TV Farming member. He doesn't post much but his wife's family business has been mentioned here as an up and coming supplier in Thailand of organic fertilizers/soil amendments. www.bonemeal.net. They are continually expanding their products line and I know that current customers include a large commercial mango grower, and a durian grower in the south. I trust their quality and business practices.  I am providing support for their soil testing program, using soil sample reports through the state of the art Logan Labs in the USA. This is the lab recommended by Michael Astera, The Ideal Soil, and Steve Solomon, The Intelligent Gardener.

22 hours ago, seajae said:

what is its  N.P.K , knowing this would give a better idea if its any good, 

 

Not necessarily.  With the new generation complete organic fertilizers, high NPK is a detrimental quality, and is a pest magnet. A full range of slow release mineral nutrients, NPK values under 10, and beneficial biological inoculants is a better sign of "good". 

https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/garden-fertilizer-zmaz06jjzraw

8 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

In an orchard it wouldn't be practical.  We have land put aside for tree production but the rice & corn land is rented out so nowhere to grow legiums which would have benefit as bio mass but we would be leaving behind the benefit in the improved soil.  Ku Din is not the perfect solution but it would be of benefit.  The rain here has eased up so we will be pumping water by the end of month and I want a mulch around each tree at #1 orchard....which is 780 trees last  count.   

If is very practical in a orchard.  You miss the point, you grow the cover crop in the orchard itself, not in a remote field for export to the orchard. I grew legume green manure crops in our mango and lamyai orchards. 

I have Signia hearing aids, with a phone app for volume adjustments. 

DEAR Hearing Centers are state of the art and provide testing, sales and service. 

https://www.dear.co.th/en/locations-en/

It may be a little late to start this year, but consider a sunn hemp legume green manure cover crop during rainy season. Cut and leave lay as mulch, or incorporate to build soil organic matter content.  

https://www.ecofarmingdaily.com/grow-crops/grow-grasses-forage/sunn-hemp-soil-building-superhero-forage-potential/

and see YouTube videos. 

Fertilizer for Free: How to make the most from
biological nitrogen fixation v. 1.0
by Wojciech Majda

[email protected]
You might also want to check out my Website:
DesignerEcosystem.Com
Thank you for your time.
Wojciech Majda

13 hours ago, sillyfool said:

i see you chose a strain easily grown by amateur growers. ????

 

if you want to start a thread on sustainable farming and future development id be more than happy to comment on a subject like that. 

 

you're kidding about the article on the thai gov't developing new strains right ? you must be joking. you got me. you have reached super saiyan status.  

 

ps... 3 of my top strains are in the top 5 in california in 2019. being from california and working on cannabis there you must of known that. remind me how outdated they are again ? 

 

 

It's me that is out of date. I didn't know that about your top strains.  I saw OGs and Kush and know those names and derivatives have been around a long time.  What I am working with is what is being called "botique hemp" for flowers high in CBD, low or no THC. It's on a special research permit through a university, not yet a legal category for production.  

Right now working with an outdoor grow in a fog zone where botritus mold hits em hard. I previously saw a large portion of a crop brown out almost overnight. And then there are budworms. I have a good flowering stage spray solution with no oily residue. It's a biological fungicide, water soluble azadirachtin and micronutrient solution with a fulvic acid adjuvant.

Vegetative stage is relatively easy, but late flowering right before harvest is when big losses can occur if they aren't ready for disease suppression and to harvest and dry. If you have experience with pest and disease control in this late flowering stage, suggestions are welcome. 

Dream Queen.  C. sativa hybrid strain.  

But your selection is a drop in the bucket and becoming out dated with all the new strains that are coming out with higher and higher % of THC, up over 30%.  See today's article on new "breed" developed in Chiang Mai claiming high CBD and THC levels.

I'm in California for the growing season, where it's legal for recreational use now. I am working with some smaller growers as a plant health care - IPM specialist  for soil testing and Rx amendments and pest/disease management. I don't like what I see going on in many respects and I'm backing out of being a part of it. The medicinal aspect in my opinion is largely a smoke screen for the recreational side, where people just want to get happy and not get arrested for it. 

What's happening here is a huge market with a lot of money and hype, and largely run by big corporate business.  Growing methods are extremely wasteful of water and other resources, and not ecological, sustainable. Excess organic materials can be polluting too. 

I can't help but think, what if we put this kind of interest and money toward healthy food production, high nutrient density soil building and water management, development of pest and disease resistant varieties of fruits and vegetables and grains and livestock feed?  I think that would have more positive "medicinal" value than all the hemp in the world can produce. 

https://www.nutritionmyths.com/sea-salt-benefits/

The salt sold along the road is not "food grade" and may contain toxins from the local sea water, sewage, industrial waste, micro plastics, etc. 

Here's the pinned subject, one of the earliest discussions started in the organic subforum: 

There are references to using animal products like pig manure, but I recommend caution on how you make and use this type of culture.  Think E. coli and other potential pathogens, and avoid using on leafy greens or in other ways that could be ingested. 

Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria normally live in the intestines of healthy people and animals. Most varieties of E. coli are harmless or cause relatively brief diarrhea. But a few particularly nasty strains, such as E. coli O157:H7, can cause severe abdominal cramps, bloody diarrhea and vomiting.

11 hours ago, faraday said:

My wife has been using some of this on the garden, I'd never heard of it before, so thanks for explaining it Dr T.

 

She said it can also be used to clean the drains around the house. Do you know about this?

 

Yes, it's excellent for drain cleaner, pond cleaner, odor control in livestock pens and manure piles, accelerating compost piles. In another thread I told about my experience with a small guppy fish pond that had algae build up  I put a liter of Organic Totto's EM in the pond and ran the recirculating pump overnight.  Within a day or two the algae was completely gone, it looked as if someone had scrubbed the sides and bottom. And the fish appeared happy and energized, and I started to see more pregnant guppies. 

After that I started making EM with Organic Totto product, buying a liter, and then a liter of molasses at Home Pro. Then mix it in a 20 liter jug with a screw off top and a spout at the bottom, and agitate the solution by shaking a couple of times a day, brewing a 20 liter batch at a time to extend my supply.  I put EM in the concrete rings water tank that I have my sprinklers drawing from, "fertigating" with EM once a month. I give some to Thai neighbors; they know what it is and how to use it and seem to appreciate that they don't have to buy it. 

Mike I'm sure there are differences, but I don't know which is which. There is an original Japanese microbial recipe that is attributed to Dr Teruo Higa, and his R & D in the 1960s.  I believe there have been many variations developed, and it's really a big grassroots tradition in Thailand.  Organic Totto also has derived their product from Dr Higa's original, and the owners have been to study and training sessions in Japan. I see various brands on Lazada and on the shelf at Home Pro, Global House and local garden shops. 

One big difference in microbial inoculants is with compost tea.  In the US we hardly hear about EM, but "actively aerated compost tea is hugely popular". It's a different set of microbes being cultured, and is more fragile than EM. But an excellent garden input if you do it right. 

Other microbial inoculants come under the category of biological fungicides-bactericides. They tend to be an individual specific strain of a bacteria or fungi that is effective for suppressing soil borne or foliar pathogens. 

Microbial Inoculants: EM-1

EM•1® Microbial Inoculant is the original and authentic Effective Microorganisms® that was originally formulated by Dr. Teruo Higa in the mid-1960's.
EM•1® is an all-natural probiotic for plants and soils.
It is made without any GMO ingredients and is USDA certified organic.

10 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Will it make my ganja any better?    LOL

 

 

Sorry, my wife's 6 plants........

Definitely. But not alone. Only with comprehensive soil fertility building and good water management. 

Learning to use EM as a component of a comprehensive intelligent plant management program can be a phenomenal benefit. 

But be careful with home brews from cultures that are passed down from friends and family. Like any microbial culture, EMs and compost teas can become contaminated with harmful microbes. 

I prefer to brew my own from a dependable known source in original containers, and to use clean containers and technique, without manures. 

In the US I use EM-1 from Teraganix.  https://www.teraganix.com/Activated-EM1-s/261.htm

In Thailand I use EM from Organic Totto. https://www.organictotto.com/ 

I don't know specifically what this solution is or how it is different from other EM products like the original EM-1, but this is the principle:

"Biostimulants, including plant-growth promoting microorganisms, have been shown to increase
plant nutrient uptake, growth, and yield via dierent underlying mechanisms such as changes in
soil structure, nutrient solubility, root growth and morphology, plant physiology, and symbiotic
relationships. In addition, they can improve the plant tolerance to abiotic stresses, as well as the
resistance to pathogens [2,3]. EM (eective microorganisms) is an environmentally friendly technology
consisting of a fermented mixed culture of coexisting and mutually compatible microorganisms in an
acidic medium. This biofertilizer contains up to 80 dierent species belonging to five main groups of
microorganisms, including photosynthetic bacteria..."

EM photosynthesis.pdf