jayboy

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

Yes I admire what the PAD did to fight corruption and help democracy.....No secret....

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic.....They should have established them self as pure movement for democracy, against abuse of power, against corruption....

So I am not too happy with what they did at the end, but still I admire their previous things.

An honest statement which I respect.Makes sense too although politically naive but I fear you underestimated the shadowy powerful interests who had their own agenda in fighting Thaksin.

My position isn't one of, "nothing has changed", but rather one of, "things have changed, but whether it will lead to long term gain in terms of democracy and in terms of the lives of those most in need, remains to be seen", and i have yet to read anyone who i take seriously saying anything much different from that.

A complete shift in your position.I don't think anyone would argue with your amended line.But it doesn't match up with your previous rigid defense of the status quo.

You speak of one "PAD admirer". And then you speak of others that no longer admire them.

Pease read my post more carefully.It was perfectly clear, particularly on why some PAD supporters are more guarded now in giving overt support.

Sorry but it always makes me chuckle when you see fit to line up all the academic heavy-weights behind you.

Not just academic heavyweights but all serious commentators.By all means chuckle away but I note you can't reference one respected source that goes along with your version of recent Thai history.

Incidentally it is a demonstrable rule of history that people preder to be governed by those they choose regardless of how flawed that government is.

Not as much as some farang in a distant tower who fails to see that the basic PAD motive was rebellion against Thaksin's blatant corruption, and still the thinks that the red movement would survive without his funding.

Anger with Thaksin was one important motive of the early PAD movement and I have always agreed that many honourable and decent people shared that view.However if you believe that as time progressed this was PAD's only motive (particularly of the discredited leadership) that is a cartoonish way of looking at the world, satisfactory for an unsophisticated teenager perhaps but not an educated adult.

Ignoring the irrelevant passages - you seem to have had difficulty in grasping the point - are you saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now mysteriously it does?

I'm saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now it still doesn't. I judge the red shirt movement not by what noises it makes, but by what action it takes. And to repeat, i can't think of one thing it has done it terms of the betterment of Thai democracy, or the betterment of Thai working classes. Perhaps you could argue that it has made the working classes feel like they have a voice, but for me there is not much value in that if that feeling is just a pretence that will be taken from them the moment their purpose has been served... which is precisely what i believe will happen.

If i'm proven wrong then great. Then you can tell me, "told you so".

No serious social commentator or analyst agrees with you.The current split in the redshirt movement also makes your position untenable.Nobody is suggesting that Thaksin hasn't exploited the movement for his own ends, financed it, even brought it into being.However it's a bit like the Mickey Mouse figure in the cartoon Fantasia (the Pandora box analogy has become overused) who has conjured up a force he can't control.I don't think the redshirt movement has done much for democracy (indeed I have concerns on this matter).What it has done however is to ensure the Thai majority can never be condescended to, ignored. patronised and exploited ever again - by a greedy, unrepresentative and corrupt set of unelected elites..I have no interest in scoring debating points but if you can't grasp this simple point it's time for you to do some hard thinking.The major error you make is to believe that Thailand is somehow a world on its own not subject to the social forces every country experiences.Hatred of Thaksin is understandable (though the motives of the haters vary considerably) but no educated or informed person can deny his catalytic effect.

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

So it's "PAD admirer" then.

Huh? Having trouble in comprehension I see.

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

"...To the red shirts, Thaksin and Yingluck have already caved in. The fighting against the establishment over the past years, which claimed many lives among them, came to naught. Thaksin simply used them as his stepladder to power..."

This of course was obvious from day one.

Now Thaksin has opened Pandora's little Red Box

and is finding them hard to put back in it.

This too was totally predictable from day one.

It may be obvious to you now but for a long time the line of the usual suspects was that the red shirts had no meaningful agenda and were simply to a lesser or greater degree unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition.Now even the most reactionary factions don't claim this nonsense to be true.Can we expect an admission of error from the motley band of reactionaries? Don't hold your breath.

To date, the red shirts have had no meaningful agenda and they have been, to a lesser or greater degree, unwitting agents of Thaksin's ambition. How many years do we have to hear red shirt sympathisers like yourself telling us all of this will ultimately lead to something good for Thai democracy and for Thai working classes. It's all a pipe dream. Wake up. This is not the movement, nor the moment. Your triumphant cries of "see, i told you so" are just plain silly.

Ignoring the irrelevant passages - you seem to have had difficulty in grasping the point - are you saying that the redshirt movement never had a purpose beyond serving Thaksin's interests and that now mysteriously it does?

Curious how some people's thought processes unravel when firmly held positions are shown to be unsustainable

A quick survey of this thread simply confirms my long held view that most members are clueless on the subject of class in Thailand presumably since their own social circles are rather limited to those who service expatriates.On this thread Samran is the exception, and his RBSC pointer is spot on.Actually Hiso has a definite "new rich" connotation and is quite different from the old Thai upper/ aristocratic class, though there is some overlap.

I take you aren't living in Thailand. Because if you would, you would have seen it yourself.

And again in a democracy the voter aren't paid.

See the last by election in Pathum Thani. There was no (or at least I don't know about it) vote buying. That is exactly what happens if PTP does not pay.

Their corrupt follower just don't go to the election. The Democrat voter are higher motivated and won the election.

If I recall right 70 % did not go to the election, so I think it can't be called democratic if only 30 % vote.

You can also see if just 30 % vote without payment how the results can shift if you can buy a few of the 70 % who don't care.

The complete democratic system is rotten down in Thailand. No matter if PTP or Democrats and no one is interested to improve it.

I think there is no solution, if you can buy people, MPs, police, court, media and army. Some groups try to get power by any means, if it is a coup or an election doesn't make much difference (as already Thaksin and his brother told in other words, but also the PAD and Red Shirts).

Your first para misses the point.It's not that electoral irregularities don't take place, it's just that they didn't have a material effect on the outcome in Thailand (at least recently).As the army found out it's actually quite hard to "fix" an election in Thailand.If you are implying - and you appear to be - that the Dems recent victory in Pathum Thani was because the PTP didn't get round to vote buying and that the Dems would win in a national fair fight - that is an extremely eccentric interpretation.Anyway if you can identify one serious source to support your view perhaps you would identify it.

Your second para seems to be just a rant, or have I missed a point?

Thanks.That's more or less the predicted line from the usual suspects, denying the present government's electoral legitimacy.

There were massive vote buying or there were not? Tell me!

Is an election where 3/4 of the people are approached with money offers for voting the "right" party democratic or not democratic in your opinion?

If the Democrats would go around in the North and North East and just double what Thaksin pays and than win the election, would you also agree that it is perfect democratic or is it only OK if the party you like wins?

Vote buying is wrong whoever is responsible, as are other electoral irregularities.However no serious source argues that the last election in Thailand was unfair or unrepresentative overall.Your earlier post taking a different view is typical of a discredited extremist camp that hates the idea of genuine democracy.

Thida and her comments are no more than the ramblings of a deadbeat old Communist who has lost the plot and knows that she isn't going to get a slice or even a crumb of Thaksins cake.Or in fact a slice or even the crumbs of anyone else's cake either.

Normally wouldn't comment on this kind of ignorant and insulting drivel but perhaps worth pointing out that what are described as "deadbeat old Communists" (most of whom like Thida have long abandoned that ideology) saved the country in 1973 and 1976, indeed were regarded as national heroes by all but the unelected elite, the brutalised army and their paid murdering thugs.

Yeah well you are pretty good at the ignorant and insulting drivel yourself. If you want to garner support for your bonehead ideology, not behaving like an arsehol_e might be a good start.

I'm sorry.There was no intention to offend but your comments on Khun Thida were completely out of line, and not at all well informed.

If they have 10 million supporter why did they need massive vote buying to get Thaksins clone elected?

I thought people would elect them for free and isn't vote buying undemocratic.

In the election before last, they even bribed voters in constituencies where they ran unopposed.

They cheated in elections where they were the only candidate.

almost as if it just innate for them that they cheat.

The usual suspects just can't bring themselves to admit openly the government has an electoral mandate, despite the endorsement of all independent electoral organisations, international observers and opposition parties including the Democrats.I guarantee they will not without prevarication or deliberate evasion say while there was certainly vote buying and irregular practices, actually across all parties though I'm not making an issue of that now, but it did not make a material difference to the final outcome.They just can't do it.

So vote buying does not make a difference....how nice from Mr. Thaksin to hand out some billions, even they don't make a difference.....

Beside that vote buying is not across all parties and even if it wouldn't make it any better.

An election with massive vote buying isn't democratic and your hero Thaksin is the worst one and all his time in power he did it.

So there is no electoral mandate. And if there would be these super rich elites than why didn't they try to buy the votes?

It is simple because Thaksin is the only rich power hungry elite, here.

Thanks.That's more or less the predicted line from the usual suspects, denying the present government's electoral legitimacy.

Deadbeat old Stalinists never die. They may have abandoned their allegiance to the failed USSR, but their Stalinist method endures.

In Thida's case that would be abandoning the Thai organised working class for the lumpen proletarian thuggery of the red (no relation) movement.

Not to put too fine a point of it she is now no more or less than a running dog for Thaksin. Her message is that he needs her and she thinks she is still hot enough for Thaksin's attentions. As she is now reminding him.

Running dog for Thaksin? Hmm.Let's see.

I wonder what you think her real agenda is.Even accepting your comment "lumpen proletarian thuggery", that's surely a means not an end in itself.What the objective?

Somewhere she may be justifying to herself and former comrades that she is following a left-wing trajectory and in old CP parlance that would mean a commitment to a stages theory. First Thaksin, then us. Unfortunately the 'us' is no more the Thai working class and is instead an unstable alliance of the petty-bourgeois, north-eastern agricultural workers and the lumpen proletariat. Her forces are neither hers, nor organised or united by a set of class demands. Only the return of Thaksin. In short it doesn't really matter what her objectives are. If Thaksin returns he will swat her away like a fly if it suits him and since Thaksin's primary objective is to secure control of the army, if/when that is achieved, her usefulness will be marginal at best. At present she may perform some useful role in bringing the 'left' (whatever that means) into line and the forum red supporters who still think they are lining up behind a bourgeois-democratic revolution in progress, but that's about it. Thida a dustbin of history with a new battery gratis Thaksin.

Thanks.Interesting post though I'm intrigued you use the language of the dialectic when clearly you have no truck with commie ideology.Perhaps you may feel as I do that Marxist analysis is sometimes quite useful as a tool.The unstable alliance you refer to I suggest contains rather more elements than you list and in any case some of them (eg NE agricultural workers) are no longer a monolithic block.

Deadbeat old Stalinists never die. They may have abandoned their allegiance to the failed USSR, but their Stalinist method endures.

In Thida's case that would be abandoning the Thai organised working class for the lumpen proletarian thuggery of the red (no relation) movement.

Not to put too fine a point of it she is now no more or less than a running dog for Thaksin. Her message is that he needs her and she thinks she is still hot enough for Thaksin's attentions. As she is now reminding him.

Running dog for Thaksin? Hmm.Let's see.

I wonder what you think her real agenda is.Even accepting your comment "lumpen proletarian thuggery", that's surely a means not an end in itself.What the objective?

Thida, like her husband, has shown a willingness to jump in bed with the elite when it suits her purposes, just as she has shown a willingness to ignore democratic principles, when she feels it is justified.

She's a politician so some compromise is necessary, though she hasn't shifted from her career long set of beliefs.It's actually a rather impressive record.

And your suggestion that she is just another elite pol scrambling after position simply doesn't make much sense (unless you regard all in the political sphere as contaminated)

The argument you seem to be making is that yes, the red shirts are willing to use undemocratic methods if necessary, but in their case they have little choice but to do so, and we must accept the hypocrisy of a group that preaches democracy failing to respect it itself.

OK, but you will of course be aware that a similar argument can be made with regards the military feeling they had little choice in taking the action they did, when they did.

I think if the reds take the position you present here of, sometimes undemocratic methods are justified, the whole premise of what they claim to be fighting against is in question. Of course it is only a claim...

I strongly prefer the democratic route.My point was that this was effectively closed off by the unelected elites.They simply wouldn't accept the nation's elected choice.The situation is rather different now and instead of rigged courts, military coups, military imposed constitution etc the accomodation is being achieved by back stairs bargaining since the cruder methods have been shown not to work.Of course Thaksin is a huge complicating factor and one wishes like a tumour he could be removed.But without Thaksin or with Thaksin, Thailand has changed fundamentally and in particular old style deference is dead or dying.

The other important factor referring back to the redshirt-army confrontation is that this was a quasi revolutionary episode, and that generates its own energy.It's not really a predictor of the future.

What the red shirts attempted whilst Abhisit was in power was to cut short his term by force, by violence, by intimidation. It wasn't democratic. In many ways it was much like a coup attempt. If they had respect for democracy, they would have said, "ok, we don't like the way that Abhisit came to power, but we will respect the democratic principles we preach, and will demonstrate this not by taking to the streets with arms and burning things down, but by trying to get him removed within the law and via the courts, and if this fails, we will simply campaign hard and make sure he is not re-elected at the next election".

I have some sympathy with your view here.The problem however was that the unelected elites would not accept the wishes of the Thai people expressed at the ballot box, hence the military coup, army meddling in politics, judicial intervention (making fair use of the law and courts unworkable) etc etc.Therefore it was not feasible simply to buckle down to peaceful campaigning and work on winning the next election.Cynically one might argue the entrenched unelected elites and their nervous middle class hangers on needed a bit of a shock to discourage further interference in the democratic process.The fire next time etc.

Newin can be bought from everyone.

Thaksin bought him before. Than the Democrats bought him and Thaksins wife called him for a higher offer but he rejected, now Thaksin is buying ihm again.

Well I never.You have made a post which has delighted me.It's rather cynical (not that it's possible to be too cynical on this subject) but has the hallmarks of truth, and in the Thai political context your observation is spot on

Just two comments

1.The military arranged the bankrolling for the Dems and in practice I doubt given the stakes involved for the unelected elites Thaksin could have topped the preferred bidder

2.The current wooing is just talk.There are significant cons as well as pluses for the PTP.Anyway let's see what transpires.

<deleted>! Newin was a Thaksin crony who left, shafting the PPP/TRT/PTP as he went. Now it seems that they are making overtures to have him rejoin their gang of thieves, which I compared to the disciples inviting Judas back.

Have you heard the joke about the blonde Irish retard? He didn't get it either.

You have already made a fool of yourself - most people are very aware who paid the 30 pieces of silver to secure Newin's support.Now you are making flaming comments about retards.Most people will draw their conclusions.

It seems that there are friends, 'eternal friends' and "fellow compatriots", Amazing Thai Politics !

It certainly makes sense for Thaksin to bring back this breakaway-faction into his political machine, despite the name-calling & vitriol of the past few years, since it further cements his PTP-led government in-power.

And the previous hatred can surely be forgotten in an instant, unless one is an honest Red-Shirt, and there are lamentably few of those, I suspect.

Perhaps the Friends-of-Newin MPs might sit next to General Sonthi in Parliament ?

And I wonder what ministerial-posts might become available, for the new fellow compatriots, in the coming reshuffle ?

At last a sensible and quite perceptive comment.I wouldn't dissent from any of this except to note that the PTP bigwigs (ok, Thaksin) might feel the negative political repercussions too much to pay for strengthening the coalition numbers when (unlike the Abhisit puppet government) Newin's support is not really needed.It would be a coldblooded political calculation not one driven by ethics or ideology.

I think it is you that doesn't have any memory (or knowledge) about Thai politics. The Chidchops and thier clients have been key part of every government for the at least the past 20 years. This past year has been an anomaly that will soon be corrected.

TH

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

As to incorporation of BJT you may be right though as earlier mentioned it's just talk at the moment.My main point was just to comment on the ludicrous suggestion that this government would have to abase itself by bribing the faction.That was precisely the role performed by the last government and its army controllers.This government with a Prime Minister at a popularity peak according to the latest polls, doesn't need BJT in the way that the Democrats did.

Heathrow is indeed a pigsty as a member has already commented.I can't comment on the current delays but my impression is that there is a deep problem at the heart of the Border Agency.At Immigration itself I can't fault the individual officers who seem businesslike and polite (far better than the automatons in Bangkok).However for reasons that are hard to explain the whole entry process seems deeply depressing, much more so than Bangkok despite my previous comment.Overall I feel Thai culture at its best works for the entry experience and British culture works against it.Where else in the world for example does one see intimidating notices everywhere warning incoming passengers not to assault staff?