jayboy

The clown show continues...

Irritated by the sensible compromise negotiated by police, traders and redshirts?

Our PAD representative from Sri Racha resorts to baby talk.

Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong businessp eople not to be enemies of group; Jatuporn says worsening econ not as bad as dead reds /TAN_Network

"Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong business people not to be enemies of group"

Is this another example of red democracy?

Perhaps more a warning from her, that only red-shirt groups are allowed to stand-up, for the poor. They naturally have exclusive-rights for this in Thailand, and all other pretenders such as these employers (concerned about their employees or their own jobs) are fakes, including of course the Dems or any other political-party.

How dare they do anything, which benefits the poor, and steals her own side's thunder ?

Thai employers "concerned" about their "poor" employees are rarer than Oxbridge Ph.D's on a visa run bus to the Cambodian border.They pay what they think they can get away with.

As far as the Dems' "populist" measures only the completely blinkered would deny that these wouldn't have taken place at all without Thaksin's example and Red pressure.The senior Dems don't even bother to deny this.

If they can get away with it good luck to them.I prefer Abhisit and Korn to the Red leadership (not least because they are economically literate), and there's a long political tradition of "walking away with the Whigs' clothes", i.e more conservative parties commandeering electorally attractive elements of opposition policies.

You can insult Thida and the Reds all you like but the reality is that the landscape of Thai politics has been permanently changed, and this is entirely due to the Reds

This "context" is crucial as I have pointed out many times in understanding the unattractive hysteria.You with respect don't seem to have taken it on board, or have airily dismissed it.But it's crucial to fully appreciate the resentment of the culture of impunity to understand what has been going on.

I have no argument that the rich, powerful, famous and/or elite can get away with a lot here in Thailand as they do elsewhere in the world and that corruption is rampant here. However, if you research more about cyber bullying and online lynch mobs that form you will find they often have no real rhyme or reason to when they will form and who the target will be. You also have to consider that true anger about a legit issue should not require lies and hatred to the degree involved in these cyber mobs.

Here is another good link (mainly because it shows some examples of targets of this online lynch mobs) .. http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article991297.ece

When you read the stories about weak kids in school becoming victims to these cyber attacks you should realize this is not something based in logic. These weak kids may face torment at school by one or two bullies but when it spreads online all of a sudden hundreds from the school want to focus their rage on this kid whose only offence maybe that they are shy and red headed or in other cases a girl who is perceived as being too pretty. Clearly these people committing these acts online have issues. Even in Thailand there is a way to get a message out and get positive results without going to the extreme of joining a hate group that generally serves only to make your group not be heard (dismissed) and be seen negatively.

Regardless if we are in public or online we should all find ways to express our emotions appropriately and without the need to spread lies or believe lies that a rational person would find highly suspicious, in order to fuel the venting of built up rage.

Thanks.I will check the link.As always there's little you say with which I disagree.

But while agreeing there are culture of impunity abuses in many countries (though Thailand is a particularly bad offender) what's interesting to me is that Thais are beginning to resent it very much.I think that's a trend, perhaps overlapping, but nevertheless distinct from the lynch mob mentality you describe and rightly condemn.

According to: http://asiancorrespo...t-thai-society/

which kind of does a chronology of events regarding the online lynching of this 16-year old girl. The photos (and believe her name) were first published by Daily News Online (Thai Language) and then spread to Twitter and resulted in the fake postings by the 16-year old as well as faked photos. From there it took off.

On December 27, Daily News online, news website of the second-largest circulated Thai-language daily newspaper, published a series of photo from the night of accident. One of the photo featured Miss A here.

However, when the picture was circulated on Twitter many Thai Twitter users not only rushed to judge that she was entirely responsible for the accident, but also believed that she was chatting on her BlackBerry right after the accident and angrily slammed her with rude words.

It's not a bad article at all.I was struck by one extract in particular:

"It is undeniable that social class plays a major role in this story. The news about the van has enraged the middle-class on Facebook because those in the van share the same class with them. They extremely ‘regret’ the deaths the PhD and researchers lost by the spoiled reckless rich girl.

They fear that their ‘middle-class friends’ will not receive justice as the elite will escape from a punishment because of their influence and money.

Interestingly, this may be the first time that the middle-class have realized that they are also affected by the so-called “double standard” of the Thai judicial system that the red shirts have campaigned against."

This "context" is crucial as I have pointed out many times in understanding the unattractive hysteria.You with respect don't seem to have taken it on board, or have airily dismissed it.But it's crucial to fully appreciate the resentment of the culture of impunity to understand what has been going on.

If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake

Would you be so kind and inform us what street you live on? I feel like demonstrating - perhaps a 'Reclaim The Streets Dance Night - screw those that dislike it.

You completely miss the point.My remarks were not aimed at the retailers who need to earn an honest living but at those smug Bangkokians who place their own fatuous mall rat experience over everything else.

The good news is that a sensible compromise has been worked out between the protesters, traders and police.It can be done with good will on all sides

Given that the OP *IS* about "the retailers who need to earn an honest living", and the particular post you quoted highlighted that fact, we didn't miss the point at all.

For heavens sake are you making my points for me or do I have sole rights to that privilege? Read the posts again more carefully.

If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake

Would you be so kind and inform us what street you live on? I feel like demonstrating - perhaps a 'Reclaim The Streets Dance Night - screw those that dislike it.

You completely miss the point.My remarks were not aimed at the retailers who need to earn an honest living but at those smug Bangkokians who place their own fatuous mall rat experience over everything else.

The good news is that a sensible compromise has been worked out between the protesters, traders and police.It can be done with good will on all sides

there's nothing wrong with Socialism if it gives an equal share to all.

That's precisely what's wrong with it.

The choice of that venue will not affect the future direction of this country. That is YOUR tunnel vision. The deaths throughout April and May are very sad, the grenade attacks against companies opposed to the red shirts are very sad. The fact that the reds are not interested in Democracy or rule of law becomes the deciding factor. Simply said, the people (many of them quite poor) that obtain their livelihoods from working there are more important in the scheme of things than the reds desire to elicit sympathy for a group that certainly has used terrorist tactics and openly states they will not cooperate with the government. You stress that they should be peaceful demonstrations but the ones that led to the April and May crackdowns were not. You say they should be coordinated and supervised but the redshirt leader has already stated she will not cooperate.

I feel the same disgust you do but with a different group of people. The redshirt leaders that played with the lives of their mostly-paid followers (yet quickly ended things when it got hot near their precious bodies) are the target of my disgust. Their vulgar disregard for the lives entrusted to them even if for pay makes me sick. The people that deny the facts of Seh Daeng's Ronin in their midst makes me ill as well.You really did say it right in the other post. "screw them"

I don't understand much of your post I'm afraid, full of bizarre and unsupported prescriptive definitions

You are possibly letting your dislike and ignorance (still absurdly arguing they are in it for pay) of the redshirts run away with you.I thought we were basically talking about management of demonstrations anyway.If Thida etc won't cooperate with the authorities about peaceful protests she deserves no sympathy (though let's see how this works out in practice).Human life is more important than property.

No the original comment was very pertinent.The Red Shirts have every right to protest peacefully and obviously this should be done in liaison with police and other authorities, who in turn should consult local residents and business people.

If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake

Sorry, but the protesters do NOT have the right to continually disrupt the lives and livelihoods of the residents and businessmen in BKK. They have the right to protest (within legal parameters) but not to pick the protest site when it directly impacts the rights of others. We are not talking about as you so snidely put it "people who like to hang in BKK's upmarket malls" we are talking about the rights of the citizens (not just the reds) to conduct business and go about their lives unimpeded. The more important issues would be what? Democracy? Rule of Law? Those are certainly things that the reds have proven that they are NOT interested in. As you so eloquently put it "screw them".

Sorry but your tunnel vision is showing.I sympathise with those who are inconvenienced but in the greater scheme of things (the future direction of the country) it's not that important.As I stressed demonstrations of whatever hue should be peaceful and co-ordinated/supervised by the appropriate authorities.

My "hang out" comment was really just a reflection of disgust at those last year who appeared more concerned at lack of access to their vulgar malls than their fellow countrymen mowed down in the street.

In democracies groups have a right to demonstrate. Mostly the organizers and the police will setup a meeting to discuss subject, route, attendance, limitations, security issues, first-aid preparations/stations, start/stop time, etc., etc. This to ensure a peaceful rally with minimal disturbance.

If the Ratchaprasong business people don't like being singled out for protests they should start talks with police and rally organizers to reach a compromise.

Democracy is action, you've got to love it

What an utterly stupid thing to say. Do you have *any idea* what happened at Ratchaprasong last year? Like shooting people, throwing bombs and finally burning a fair bit of it down? Is that a "peaceful rally with minimal disturbance"?

You're in Thailand now, things work a bit differently here.

No the original comment was very pertinent.The Red Shirts have every right to protest peacefully and obviously this should be done in liaison with police and other authorities, who in turn should consult local residents and business people.

If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake

If you are educated then you may need to slow down when reading as you seem to be lacking comprehension of this post and those in an unrelated topic...

Not very convincing I'm afraid, and what you describe as "unrelated topic" is in fact very telling.If you had any self awareness you might understand

And you are still sublimely and hopelessly wrong (and again very self revealing) if you think one group of Thais has less interest in the education and welfare of their children than any other group of Thais.

Now why am I not surprised (with your never ending absurd posts defending that foolish hiso illegal driver) that these fatuous comments are your political views? You are as programmed as any Isaan peasnt.

By the way if you believe Reds are uninterested in good educational opportunities for your children, you are very ignorant.

You lot are a sad bunch. You all cry for justice, but are ready to pass your own judgement on this girl before she has been properly convicted.

And before you all get on your high horses about me defending her, I'm not..I'm quite happy for a court to decide whether she is guilty or not after reviewing all the facts and evidence (and not from reading newspaper reports like the wannabe judges on this forum)

Listen to yourselves almost baying for blood.. "lock her up, throw away the key" you say.. thank god you are not part of the legal system in any country.

This whole thing is a tradgedy.. for all involved.

totster

Totster for PM...

Sad bunch indeed...

Actually it's a reasonable sentiment, but neither original nor very interesting.

Apart from a few blood baying crazies everybody accepts the people in this incident should not be judged before a full investigation, nor should people be be prejudged because of their posh background.OK, everybody on board now?

Now we can consider the broader context namely the culture of impunity for the rich and privileged, and in my mind more interestingly why this incident has aroused so much passion at this particular time.

You lot are a sad bunch. You all cry for justice, but are ready to pass your own judgement on this girl before she has been properly convicted.

And before you all get on your high horses about me defending her, I'm not..I'm quite happy for a court to decide whether she is guilty or not after reviewing all the facts and evidence (and not from reading newspaper reports like the wannabe judges on this forum)

Listen to yourselves almost baying for blood.. "lock her up, throw away the key" you say.. thank god you are not part of the legal system in any country.

This whole thing is a tradgedy.. for all involved.

totster

Admirable sentiments with which one would agree.The problem is not however the people baying for blood for they are obviously wrong.

The general issue is whether the rich and privileged should continue to evade justice in Thailand.In this particular case we must await the outcome though all sadly the signs are that the traditional patterns will apply.

It is also interesting why this case has raised so much heat among ordinary Thais at this particular time.

So your comment about those who bay for blood is well made, but the truth is you have also missed the main point as the dead victims families would tell you.

we wont interfere in the cambodian legal system but if they don't get a move on and give us a favourable result it will affect diplomatic ties. surely a threat to diplomacy is interfering in their legal process.

When will Thailand grow up, accept their people did wrong and accept the punishment that goes with it.

I would have thought little Kasit would rather approve of delayed legal proceedings, since his own terrorist activities have yet to come before a Thai court.

It is now for you to reflect (since you seem to have no idea) why there is so much anger about this case.Of course the girl's rights must be respected but your posts are ridiculously out of balance.It's not really about class envy at all but rather a widespread rage that the elite in this country get away with crimes and abuse through the exercise of influence and money.Whether this is relevant here or will be a factor in this case remains to be seen.So far so good.

So basically this incident, that you admit has gone (handled) good so far, should be justification for anger DIRECTED AT THIS MINOR because other people of influence of money have got away with things in the past?

In fact, things have not only gone good so far in terms of the handling of the events in the aftermath but because of the name she was born with she has already had to endure death threats, her name being released by police as well as photos being published (both illegal when a minor involved in a crime). The victims family are already receiving token payments and am sure there will be much more to come given this family does appear to have the resources as opposed to a poor person.

I have no idea how rich this family is but it is simply a matter of fact that the rich often have the ability to buy their way out of problems all over the world. It is not unique to Thailand.

Personally I find it illogical, ignorant and disregardful to those killed and injured to try to make this girl the focus of anger regarding issues that have happened in the past or the family she was born into.

You still don't appear to get it.The significant issue is why there has been so much anger and rage at this particular incident, and above all why now.I don't think there would have been such a virulent reaction even ten years ago.It is I concede partly a reaction of frustration at the culture of impunity in Thailand, but not I think directed at this particular poor girl.The one interesting thing Ban Tomo mentioned was a wish to see what a commentator like Chris Baker would say.I'm guessing that Baker might also wish to consider why this incident has raised so much passion and why now.One point not I think stressed in these threads were that the victims were themselves middle class.I doubt whether a van full of Isaan peasants would have stirred up similar outrage among the Bangkok middle class.Oddly enough I checked some Facebook pages of some Thai friends/acquaintances.The ones who are ranting abuse at this foolish girl seem to be the same ones who were screaming violent and racist abuse at the Reds earlier this year - don't quite know what to make of that.

Incidentally I don't pay much attention to the girl's family showering preliminary "compensation" around and turning up at victims funerals.Not bad and not good - just not relevant except to burnish the defence case if accusations made - absurd in my view - of lack of empathy.You can bet that if that's what it took in those days (it wasn't) Rose and Jo Kennedy (that corrupt gangster) would have done the same if that was needed to keep Teddy out of the slammer.

Rexalex, shunima, Nisa - your calm and balanced postings, the civility of your disagreements, are so appreciated. So much of what I've read in this thread is just sad. Twenty-two years and a fair number of miles into my life in Thailand, with Thais, and still I have often to cringe at the utter ineptitude of so many, both Thai and non-Thai, both hi and loso, who have every preparation to do (and say) so much better than they have here. As a foreigner who's had the privilege of receiving a master degree from Chulalongkorn, and the very personal royal blessings that come with that, and also of living and working for several years among the subsistence rice farmers of the Emerald Triangle, I have some experience of both worlds. Thai civil society is at such a delicate stage of development right now, and this tragedy has the potential to become something of far greater proportions, and to result in grave damage to the place many of us love deeply. It seems to me to merit a higher level of discourse and I'm grateful for your contributions.

Could you expound please on the portion of your post I have highlighted? I think it is an interesting comment that is worthy of some further detail.

Just curious, do you not understand what he/she is referring to or are you bating him to speak more so you can debate this?

I only ask because it seems to be the most intelligent well thought and from the heart posts I have seen in this thread. To expound on it would only seem to take away from its perfect and non-biased concerned. Sometimes things are just so eloquently stated that expanding on it only causes it to lose its meaning or find ways to pick it apart.

Personally I thought it complete balderdash - sloppy,emotional and devoid of any real meaning - and <deleted> is the "emerald Triangle"?

And as for you, I think you have made your point very clearly, namely that the girl concerned should not be condemned or prejudged because of her background.I agree and I agreed the first of the numerous times you made it.

It is now for you to reflect (since you seem to have no idea) why there is so much anger about this case.Of course the girl's rights must be respected but your posts are ridiculously out of balance.It's not really about class envy at all but rather a widespread rage that the elite in this country get away with crimes and abuse through the exercise of influence and money.Whether this is relevant here or will be a factor in this case remains to be seen.So far so good.

I see a glimmer of hope for the young lady who caused the accident. She has a mother who has a lot of courage and a fair amount of compassion.

Agree. The family and the girl appear to be doing the right things and what they reasonably can at this point. So, far everything I have seen indicates this is a good family with a daughter who used very bad judgement resulting in horrific consequences..

And if found guilty should be punished accordingly.Agreed?

Keep in mind this is Thailand where 95% of the population are Buddhists and don't have the same thirst for revenge or eye-for-an-eye mentality and are much more forgiving and understanding than much of the western societies.

Always good to start the New Year with a cracking first class joke - since Thailand's culture is notoriously murderous and vengeful.

Where do these people get their naive ideas?

But she may get jail time because of all the haters who are making this into something they are clueless about and are somehow already convinced she is not only fully responsible for the accident but that she and her family set out, or at the least could care less, to kill 9 people because they could get away with it due to their last name. Yet, common sense tells us the further thing away from a typical 16-year old's mind is consequences or that these things will happen to them.

You cannot be serious and I should be careful on the evidence of your post about flinging around "clueless" epithets..As yet the facts are unclear.If however after due process the girl gets gaol time, that will be the considered decision of the Thai justice system, and has nothing to do with the "haters".If she is not the party to blame, she will be set free although we already know she was driving illegally.The question of whether the killings were unintentended is completely beside the point, whether the driver is 16 or 66.I do feel a certain sympathy for this girl and many attacks have been unfair.Your comments frankly don't strengthen her case, actually the opposite.

I have seen numerous comments by the haters about her good looks, the way she stood in the photo, her name, her skirt, her parent's occupation as well as numerous imagined assumptions about her upbring, thought process and so on which to any person with common sense are coming out of jealousness and not any thoughts or concerns with the Thai Justice System.

Really I haven't seen any such comments.Did you make them up?

I have seen a lot of concern however at how wealth and privilege in Thailand often evades justice.Whether this is a factor in this case is hard to say (let's see how the investigation pans out), but it's clear most Thais won't tolerate poor behaviour by the elite anymore.To his credit the PM has emphasized the law is blind.

I detest censorship, don't get me wrong. But when my innocent and valid comments are censored on Huffington Post and New Mandala and all these places in league with guys like Pravit and Thaksin and Amsterdam...who are all simultaneously bleating concerted cries demanding the end of the repressive Thai media censorship (whilst they ruthlessly censor the portals on which their cries are published)....well, I think it's probably evident these are not the people who have any legitimacy to be making what might well be an (otherwise) valid argument.

So (considering the quoted extract from your last post) you have decided to abandon reasonable argument and joined the ranks of the crazies?

Yes Jay, that is correct.

I have thrown myself onto the altar of insanity when I refuse to accept as valid / legitimate, the coordinated bleating for the 'end' of oppressive censorship which isn't *really* existent (definitely not in any way they claim, that's for sure - and definitely never applied as unjustly as they (themselves) apply censorship to avoid having to respond to pesky considerations they're much rather just ignore.

I expect imminent sectioning and buxom nurses and delightful medication...one time.

Sectioning not appropriate really and I would suggest stick with the nurses and delightful medication.Happy New Year.

It's not like reckless Van drivers are unknown in Thailand. The girl looks like she's for certain guilty of driving without a licence, but neither that, nor her parents' station makes her at fault for the accident. Let the investigation play out.

No reasonable person would disagree with what you say and one would have to be crazed to believe anybody's status makes them "at fault".However the context behind the wide spread anger is that people of this "station" in Thailand get away with motoring crimes on a regular basis through influence (to use a charitable expression).What's fascinating is that the climate is changing and even the PM has felt it necessary to point out the law is blind.Thais seem no longer prepared to tolerate the abuse of a privileged background.Still I suggest we make a diary note to check the status of this incident in say 12 months time.How the investigation plays out, to use your expression, will be fascinating.To date amidst the welter of speculation, much of it very foolish, nobody - apart from the police officers responsible - really has the faintest idea of the relevant facts.If I could single out one particularly stupid criticism of the poor girl it would be that she hasn't shown sufficient empathy for the victims.

[/font] I detest censorship, don't get me wrong. But when my innocent and valid comments are censored on Huffington Post and New Mandala and all these places in league with guys like Pravit and Thaksin and Amsterdam...who are all simultaneously bleating concerted cries demanding the end of the repressive Thai media censorship (whilst they ruthlessly censor the portals on which their cries are published)....well, I think it's probably evident these are not the people who have any legitimacy to be making what might well be an (otherwise) valid argument.

So (considering the quoted extract from your last post) you have decided to abandon reasonable argument and joined the ranks of the crazies?

And Jon Russel has a good post up about the happenings: http://asiancorrespondent.com/45000/social-networks-get-ugly-in-thailand-malaysia-and-indonesia/

I tend to agree with much of what Jon Russel says here including, and I quote:

"It has been suggested that disillusion with the system – and principally how her family connections may help her escape punishment – and lack of faith in the media to accurately report the news – an article The Nation suggesting that the girl’s age would acquit her of charges hardly helped – are chiefly responsible for the reaction and it is easy to see how and why people are emotional about the events, but the ugly side of social media paints Thai society as a savage, revenge-seeking mob."

It is this perceived culture of impunity that drives much of the anger, but it is a destructive and unhelpful process.I was equally disgusted by the ugly way the social media was used after the civilian deaths earlier this year.