jayboy
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Posts posted by jayboy
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However, I will try my best to get it this year by having people pester the Ministry on my behalf on a regular basis.
That will work.
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I see the same old idiots every time decrying everything good to do with red shirts, even after they win the upcoming election these same people will still be denying it, and then rejoicing when the army stage yet another coup as they don't want the reds running the country, democracy my arse.
The polls are generally showing that it will be a reasonably close race between PTP and Dems with PTP probably getting the most MPs, but not a majority.
That leaves the smaller parties to decide who will form government, with the likely hood, IMO, that the coalitions will stay the same, putting the Dems back in government.
If the PTP get enough support and are able to form government, once again IMO, the military won't step in until the PTP start trying to change laws to whitewash Thaksin's crimes.
If you think democracy is about ignoring crimes that have been committed, up to you.
Where does one begin with this?
First off , I agree with the sensible summary in the first two sentences.
Then it becomes problematic,though are we are in a subjective area.My view is that if the PTP is able to form a government the elite will be looking for a way to overthrow it.There is a track record here which has to be taken seriously,namely the willingness to take action and the contempt for democracy.Within the army there are those who would achieve this through a coup, but I'm guessing that the hotheads will be held in check by wiser counsel given the horrific damage done to the country by the last coup..There's no need to rehearse alternative strategies because there's already a body of evidence what these might be.Let's just say the judicialisation of Thai politics would continue apace.
There are many crimes that have been committed which have not been punished, most notably the criminal military coup where the ringleaders awarded themselves a post facto pardon, the killing of unarmed civilians in Bangkok last year, Tak Bai massacre etc.PTP can't change laws but if hypothetically Thaksin was awarded a legal pardon or partial pardon, it's none of the Thai army's business.It would be better employed investigating and dealing with its own crimes mentioned above.
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Further discussion on this aspect would be superfluously redundant AKA bickering.
I take it that's your way of conceding defeat, having had your position demolished by the HRW report.
Incidentally you did misread (I am being charitable) my earlier post which you have just truncated so the meaning was obscured.To refresh your memory:
"Sorry that's a lie propagated by the military, nor is there any evidence of public complaints.There are hundreds of unlicensed community radio stations in Thailand but only those sympathetic to the Red shirts were shut down."
In other words the lie was the manafactured excuse to close down stations the military doesn't like.As to the public complaints, I simply said I had seen no evidence.
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Thank you for reconfirming that HRW report never said it is a lie that residents complained about illegal radio station broadcasts.
Hopefully now that has been put to rest.
Nobody's fooled.
The "complaints from the public issue" was never the main point of contention, and in any event arose from your misreading of my earlier post.
The HRW release confirms the political interference, dishonesty and political opportunism I had drawn attention to previously.
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If you don't understand the reference to Thaksin's "Minister of Culture" I suggest you read up on the topic. To many people it shows exactly where Thaksin's true conservative political leanings were (and I suggest still are.) In your entire post you didn't actually address any issue, just took 3rd person shots
Oh I get it, the main objection to Thaksin was Purachai's curb on the night life (in practice welcomed by many worried Bangkok parents.)It may have escaped your notice but actually most Thais are socially conservative.Some foreigners mainly here for the night life (whatever other excuse they peddle for being here) don't get around enough to understand this.I have no idea whether this applies to you or not but in any event the introduction of the Ministry of Culture reference was completely irrelevant.
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why don't you quote them Jayboy?
i believe its a requirement when posting on TV to justify the sources of your remarks
its a reportable to mods offense to propagate lies on TV as fact
when confronted its your job to quote the quote, not ours to find
is that too confrontational for you?
am i picking a fight?
Yes it's fairly confrontational.I'm not too bothered about that since it's devoid of relevant content. You might want to take better advice on forum rules.
On the matter at hand, the redshirt stations were closed down by ISOC.The excuse it provided was complaints from the public on wavelength confusion.That was a lie.If you contend otherwise you are suggesting there was no political motivation in the action.No other unlicensed stations have been closed.That's all folks.
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Now then, how about those quotes/links from sources, other than yourself, that say it is a lie that complaints over illegal radio stations were ever made?
Thank you.
I have already (actually quite a few times) given sources.Read the HRW and AHRC comments.
I have read those comments, but never came across them saying what you are saying, which is, that it is a lie that residents complained about illegal radio station broadcasts.
Please read my posts more carefully.I have made my position clear on the ISOC lies - the complete dishonesty in the excuses for closing down the red shirt stations.
If you have read the HRW comments the position should be clear to you.
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Do try and focus on arguments and facts, rather than personalities.
It would a pleasant and most welcome change if you could follow that advice.
Please don't try and pick a fight.There are serious issues under discussion.
More good words to live by.
Now then, how about those quotes/links from sources, other than yourself, that say it is a lie that complaints over illegal radio stations were ever made?
Thank you.
That's a prescriptive definition which stands out like a sore thumb.Who knows what the ISOC goons have done to "justify" their action: there are always military cheerleaders around so I wouldn't rule out ventriloquised "complaints".Odd though that nobody has "complained" about the many unlicensed non-redshirt stations.
The big lie is of course nothing to do with "complaints".Thats just the military dishonesty about its real motives.
I have already (actually quite a few times) given sources.Read the HRW and AHRC comments.
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Do try and focus on arguments and facts, rather than personalities.
It would a pleasant and most welcome change if you could follow that advice.
Please don't try and pick a fight.There are serious issues under discussion.
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I didn't accuse you of dishonesty at all, just queried your "mates" understanding.
Certainly Rugby is one of the great Public Schools, a place where traditionally the offspring of nouveaux riche manafacturers went to have their ugly provincial accents removed, by surgery if necessary.Just kidding:it's a wonderful school.
There is no top of the class concept at these schools.If you are saying the kids recognise who is the brightest, that's certainly true.
Winchester doesn't use common entrance:it has its own exam for the little geeks who are bright enough to take it.
You've mixed up Abhisit and Korn.The latter went to prep school and the Winchester.I believe Abhisit had a shorter than normal period at Eton.
korn attended Somtavil and Satit Pathumwan Schools in Bangkok until the 6th grade, when he attended Winchester College boarding school in England. He read politics, philosophy and economics (PPE) at St. John's College, Oxford University and graduated with honours.[4] While at St. John's College, he was a classmate of Abhisit Vejjajiva.[5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korn_Chatikavanij
Admittedly, 6th grade could be Bor 6.
I understood that Abhisit was a Kings Scholar at Eton, so attended the full period.
I thought Korn attended a prep school in the West Country, The Old Mill or something like that.
If Abhisit was a colleger (KS) you are right he went to Eton at 13.
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as opposed to the pack of lies Robert Amsterdam version he is going to present to the court?
''Another example of this high-stakes form of negative public relations strategy involved the evacuation of Chulalongkorn Hospital in Bangkok on April 30, 2010. It was widely reported that the evacuation was prompted by an invasion of Red Shirt demonstrators searching for snipers. In fact, the incident was planned in advance by the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership, in collusion with certain members of the Thai media and certain members of the board of Chulalongkorn Hospital. After members of the press challenged Red Shirt leaders to back up their claims that Army snipers had fired shots from atop the hospital,hospital management immediately ordered the evacuation. There was never any genuine belief that the Red Shirt leaders presented a threat, and the orders to evacuate were given in order to heighten tensions and reinforce the false impression that the Red Shirts were violent and a threat to the Monarchy.The Government Leadership’s postponement of the beginning of the school year in May 2010 was also part of this anti-Red Shirt public relations strategy. The decision was not based on any actual or perceived threat from the Red Shirts, but was designed to create the illusion that they were dangerous.''
I give HRW much more credence than Robert Amsterdam, particularly because as well as having a fine track record it is independent.Amsterdam isn't given that he's paid by Thaksin.
Also on HRW generally I don't succumb to the hypocrisy of invoking it when it supports my political position and belittling it when it doesn't.
On Amsterdam I prefer to look at what he has to say rather than abuse the man personally
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I know plenty about their careers, Don't worry, I have a couple of mates who went to school with both of them. They held their own but weren't actually top of the class at Winchester or Eton. That said, they both passed with flying colours.
I just challenge the premise that being a successful banker makes you a successful finance minister or PM.
I do not for a moment suppose that you are personally familiar with the great English public schools , but the concept of being "top of the class" is non existent in them, nor does any British public school boy "pass with flying colours" since there is no equivalent of the American high school graduation.
I suspect your "couple of mates" have been nowhere near Eton or Winchester.
On the basis that you accuse me of lying, I will leave you to judge whether Rugby is considered one of the great English public schools. As one of the original nine, I think it gets in there. If you want the names of my mates who went to Eton and Winchester, please PM me, I will be only too happy to name them to you. I don't know where you get the idea that being top of the class is of lesser meaning in a British public school.
On average particularly at a place like Winchester which is academically extremely high, the kids among themselves know who is the absolute cream of the crop in their line of subject. We all knew who were the strongest mathematicians, economists, linguists, musicians in the year. My understanding of Winchester was that kids finished all there GCSE's a year early and many kids took at least 4 A levels. I understand that Korn only went there for 6th form.
Not all of these kids get to go to Oxford and yet the vast majority get very good results. Not all A's are created equal. As for passing with flying colours, this is simply a phrase to state that they passed with very good results in comparison with the national average. But then with an common entrance entry level set as high as Eton or Winchester, if you don't get 3 A's I would consider that the school has failed the child.
I didn't accuse you of dishonesty at all, just queried your "mates" understanding.
Certainly Rugby is one of the great Public Schools, a place where traditionally the offspring of nouveaux riche manafacturers went to have their ugly provincial accents removed, by surgery if necessary.Just kidding:it's a wonderful school.
There is no top of the class concept at these schools.If you are saying the kids recognise who is the brightest, that's certainly true.
Winchester doesn't use common entrance:it has its own exam for the little geeks who are bright enough to take it.
You've mixed up Abhisit and Korn.The latter went to prep school and the Winchester.I believe Abhisit had a shorter than normal period at Eton.
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Robby nz posts the truth...
complaints from local residents about the illegal radio stations' frequencies interfering with regular radio broadcasts
Even Bucholz must understand why quoting a lying ISOC goon might not satisfy most people.But perhaps not.
timekeeper, on 2011-05-04 18:58:50, said:jayboy, on 2011-05-04 18:48:22, said:Robby nz, on 2011-05-04 18:06:59, said:robby The radio stations were shut down because they did not have licences and the public had complained that they were interfearing with the broadcaste of licenced stations not the content of what they were broadcasting
gayboy Sorry that's a lie propagated by the military, nor is there any evidence of public complaints.There are hundreds of unlicensed community radio stations in Thailand but only those sympathetic to the Red shirts were shut down.
timekeeper where are the sources of your claims Jayboy?
wheres the evidence ?
or is this just a lie propagated by you?
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you started it Jayboy by calling them liars and are still doing so
however you have failed to answer a request for your sources or justify your own speculation that they lied (as usual)
you will forgive us cynical TV members, if you we choose to believe a genuine source with a name who can be held accountable for lying rather than an anonymous red sympathizer on a forum who has no basis for the accusation but himself
i think we should start to refer to these quotes from you as ''jayboyisms''
it can be known as a general term for things that look to be true, as they are eloquently written but aren't ............
I have already pointed out sources including HRW and AHRC.Unusually the matter was well covered in the press.
I have not suggested any member was dishonest, in the way you speculate about me.
Do try and focus on arguments and facts, rather than personalities.
If you don't understand the reputation and history of ISOC, I suggest you do some research.
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Tensions increased throughout the day, as the afternoon brought news of increased fighting
in northern Thailand. Several explosions were heard outside the hospital. Later that day, the
protesters extended a clear plastic tube from one of the propane tanks toward the hospital
basement and, according to two witnesses, threatened to burn the building down. They later
withdrew the plastic tube after negotiating with hospital security guards. That evening
protesters returned to the emergency room to look for soldiers and police officers. They
spoke lewdly to physicians, nurses, and other hospital staff, and threatened to return the
next day to take them hostage.122
The next day, April 29, at about 6 p.m. UDD leader Phayap Panket and some 25 Red Guards
appeared at the gate of the emergency department with more than 100 protesters, some
carrying sharpened bamboo stakes, to demand they again be let in to search for police and
soldiers. UDD protesters shouted threats and obscenities, and grabbed the shirts of several
hospital guards. The protesters refused to believe the senior administrators' assurances that
soldiers were not permitted in the hospital. Hospital administrators called police, who had
not yet established a formal presence nearby.123
UDD leaders persisted in their demand to search the hospital. Hospital administrators felt
compelled by the large number of protesters to acquiesce, although requested a limited
number of searchers participate. However, several hundred stormed the hospital compound
and began to search two of the previously evacuated larger buildings. When police arrived,
they accompanied UDD leaders in their search of other hospital buildings, while other UDD
protesters walked throughout the hospital and surrounding grounds in small groups.
Physicians and nurses expressed shock at the brazen attitude of the UDD protesters. One
doctor told Human Rights Watch, "We are neutral.… Maybe they don't understand the
principles of the Red Cross."124
For safety reasons, the hospital administration decided that evening to close the emergency
room and pharmacy and moved most hospital staff to buildings further from the UDD
encampment. Hospital administrators held an emergency meeting and decided to evacuate
the entire hospital early the next morning. By 7 a.m. on April 30, staff began to transfer and
discharge the remaining 600 patients. By that evening only the Supreme Patriarch,
Thailand's most revered Buddhist monk, remained as a patient in the hospital. After he was
transferred the next day, the hospital had no patients.
The rush to move patients out of the Chulalongkorn Hospital was widely reported, with live
images of terminally ill patients being carried or wheeled out from the hospital buildings.
Among those patients, Thuanthong Vitthayacheewa died of heart failure on May 4 as his
condition worsened during the transfer.125
Several Red Shirt leaders soon apologized for the raid, calling it a mistake. Weng Tojirakarn,
a physician and protest leader, was quoted as saying, "The situation got out of control. It is
not our policy to obstruct hospital operations."126
Many Thais were outraged by the incursion into the hospital, leading even some sympathetic
to the UDD to question the methods and the judgment of their leaders.127
I am really interested in knowing if any of the red apologists in here can twist this fact and justify this terrorist action? Any takers? No? I didn't think so...
i am sure jayboy will be along soon with another of his ''jayboyisms'' to pick the holes in this and twist it around to defend the red revolutionists actions..........
No.It seems a very fair summary of that incident.
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I know plenty about their careers, Don't worry, I have a couple of mates who went to school with both of them. They held their own but weren't actually top of the class at Winchester or Eton. That said, they both passed with flying colours.
I just challenge the premise that being a successful banker makes you a successful finance minister or PM.
I do not for a moment suppose that you are personally familiar with the great English public schools , but the concept of being "top of the class" is non existent in them, nor does any British public school boy "pass with flying colours" since there is no equivalent of the American high school graduation.
I suspect your "couple of mates" have been nowhere near Eton or Winchester.
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Certainly there are some scholars who argue that the established Thailand elite includes businessmen who rely on monopolies and protection while strongly resisting globalisation, whereas Thaksin and his allies stand for a more open economic system.To say that different elites are basically fighting for economic advantage is the starting point.But can you finish what you started?
You seem to be asking me to make YOUR argument for you.
I don't think that Thaksin and his allies stand for what you claim at all. Thaksin was as protectionist as anyone else imho (The only exceptions possibly being in his unilateral decision to change some laws that benefitted only his businesses.) His minister for culture etc certainly didn't show any of what you are asserting. His attempts to break up some government monopolies/businesses weren't (again imho) intended to do anything more than let him get his beak into PTT and EGAT etc ... although I did personally benefit from PTT.
What I started ends with the simple statement I made above. 2 groups of "elite" battling for their place at the trough and any thin milk offered to the rural poor simply being what was left over after the regional power families skimmed off the cream via construction, brokerage etc.
Ah well.He can't justify his own position other than by unsupported assertions.His reference to the Minister of Culture is baffling.He now talks of "two" elites but apparently can't distinguish between them other than one represents "regional power families".Nor does he explain (nor I suspect understand) what the competition might be about.I suspect he has picked up some half digested ideas about patronage but can't quite figure out how it really works.
I don't incidentally see how I'm asking you to make my own argument since I don't believe what you are suggesting as I would have thought was obvious from my earlier post.
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Robby nz posts the truth...
complaints from local residents about the illegal radio stations' frequencies interfering with regular radio broadcasts
Even Bucholz must understand why quoting a lying ISOC goon might not satisfy most people.But perhaps not.
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It's about time someone realized that it's the elite that is destroying the country and NOT the rural folk. Just like every other country, the rich get richer.........
What pisses me off is to see the many farang that come on TV here and think that THEY are the elite and support these elite yellow shirts. These farang elite really do think that their rice does come from the supermarkets.
destroying the country?
wasn't that the reds?
burning everything?
attempting a revolution in support of the criminal Thaksin?
aren't the reds the representatives of the poor and uneducated that includes the rural folk?
in every society there are chiefs and Indians, its nothing new
nor is it unusual for the occasional upstart Indian to want to become a chief even though he is not qualified
if there were no chiefs there would be myriads of Indians wandering around looking for someone to tell them what to do, that's life.
personally i like the present administration where you have two of the countries most educated men steering the ship through difficult waters
either man could earn millions of $US a year working in the financial sector in neighboring Singapore
Korn and Abhisit deserve to be chiefs, they have earned it.
the Thais will prove their own stupidity if they bring back the corrupt, criminal Thaksin instead of keeping these two valuable assets on board .............
I don't mind that they have public school and Oxford educated people running the country. I do question the fact that they could earn a fortune in the financial sector as being a qualification to run a country. I think there are a few countries in the world bemoaning the fact that the separation between banking and politics wasn't maintained far enough.
If one considers that Broon and Fred the shred were all pally pally for 10 years on the way up to the crisis, I would suggest that placing politicians and bankers on other sides of the universe wouldn't be far enough apart.
Actually the premise is wrong.Korn would certainly have major earning power (although in his business career he made most of his fortune by selling the investment bank he started,) Abhisit's different and has no financial career behind him, more of an academic economist.Although with his excellent brain he would presumably do well at whatever he put his hand to.
Incidentally I'm always amused by the implication that someone who attended one of the best schools and one of the best universities is perhaps unqualified for office.One often comes across this in the UK but less so in Thailand (except among expat Brits)
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The radio stations were shut down because they did not have licences and the public had complained that they were interfearing with the broadcaste of licenced stations not the content of what they were broadcasting
Sorry that's a lie propagated by the military, nor is there any evidence of public complaints.There are hundreds of unlicensed community radio stations in Thailand but only those sympathetic to the Red shirts were shut down.
Sorry Jayboy it was the broadcasting authority that shut then down not the military and the broadcasting authority said they had a long list of unlicenced stations around the country and would be visiting them soon.
They started in BKK because that is where their office is.
So now you have to prove to us all that the stations shut down did have licences and there were no public complaints and that they were only shut down because they were sympathet to the reds (as you are).
I note that a mob of reds stopped the broadcasting authority entering one one unlicenced station and prevented them doing their job.
I call that civil disobedience and those who did it should be punishable under the law.
What do you call it?
I call it a disgraceful attempt to influence the pre-election environment by military goons. ISOC, took the action under orders from the military high command.Human Rights Watch have the details, and are highly critical.Actually the local English language and Thai press have also covered this scandal quite well.
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Simply put --- comparing Thailand to England in the 17th century is a fallacious argument, much as suggesting that what the redshirt leadership wanting as being different than the other group of "elite" wanting is. The redshirt leaders want a pretense of a "class struggle" because it (obviously) snows so many (western) people. The simple fact remains that it is one group of elite fighting with a different group of elite .... for the money ... and everything else is just window dressing.
The point I was making was that powerful and rich people throughout history have had different visions of how society should be ordered.They can't be typecast.In Thailand while there are regional power bases the fount of all power is Bangkok where the elite is primarily based.Now, whether unwittingly or not, your last sentence is quite interesting.In fact it reflects the view of a famous British historian, Sir Lewis Namier, when describing aristocratic factions (Whigs and Tories) in the eighteenth century.But can you develop this theme with arguments and examples? I don't think it fully works in Thailand (and I don't think it really worked in eighteenth century England) but it would be interesting to see someone argue this through rigorously.Certainly there are some scholars who argue that the established Thailand elite includes businessmen who rely on monopolies and protection while strongly resisting globalisation, whereas Thaksin and his allies stand for a more open economic system.To say that different elites are basically fighting for economic advantage is the starting point.But can you finish what you started?
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The radio stations were shut down because they did not have licences and the public had complained that they were interfearing with the broadcaste of licenced stations not the content of what they were broadcasting
Sorry that's a lie propagated by the military, nor is there any evidence of public complaints.There are hundreds of unlicensed community radio stations in Thailand but only those sympathetic to the Red shirts were shut down.
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I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.
"Elite" is usually used by red shirt supporters specifically as the rich people in Bangkok who have certain connections, and these "elite" are specifically blamed for keeping the poor farmers and their families poor and uneducated.
What the red shirt supporters fail to consider (conveniently, I might add, as it doesn't fit the propaganda that they put out) is that the rich people upcountry (usually red shirts) who have their own connections do as much or more damage to the farmers than the "elite" in Bangkok.
It's far more than red shirt supporters - a whole range of credible scholars, academics and commentators - both Thai and foreign.
In response to jdinasia there are elements of class conflict in Thailand's current politics whatever state of denial he is in, but it's also more complicated than that.
To be honest I find his position a bit simple minded.It appears for him that anyone rich and powerful is part of the ruling elite.Take Thailand out of it and consider the English civil war in the seventeenth century.It is now clear that the key movers came from very similar landed gentry backgrounds on both sides, and yet what each side wanted for their country was completely different.
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Your misunderstanding of the use of the word "elite" is an issue I just can't help you ...
I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.
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It's about time someone realized that it's the elite that is destroying the country and NOT the rural folk. Just like every other country, the rich get richer.........
What pisses me off is to see the many farang that come on TV here and think that THEY are the elite and support these elite yellow shirts. These farang elite really do think that their rice does come from the supermarkets.
I don't think anyone is blaming the rural folk for ruining the country. A few are blaming the red shirt elite, such as Thaksin and the red shirt leaders.
I certainly haven't seen any TV posters claiming to be the elite. And very few support the (elite, middle class or poor) yellow shirts. Quite a few are anti-Thaksin/PTP/Red shirt, but, as is stated on a daily basis, that doesn't make them yellow shirt supporters.
I think Yenoormit does hit on one truth that has sometimes puzzled me, namely why some foreigners (let's call them the military cheerleaders as a convenient label) identify so strongly with feudal/yellow shirt/reactionary interests in Thailand when they would not dream of doing so in respect of such extremists in their home countries.Going further it's clear from internal evidence (over time it's amazing how much information many unwittingly reveal on education, social class etc) that many are of lower or lower middle class origin but identify strongly with the ruling class in Thailand, whereas they could not identify with posh boys like David Cameron (a mirror image of Abhisit).All very puzzling.
Of course (reality check) it doesn't matter really what Thai Visa members think though it's interesting to exchange views.On political matters the numbers involved on a regular basis are tiny, so I'd be cautious about drawing conclusions in the way whybother does.Let's be honest there's a a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Thailand Can No Longer Celebrate Freedom Of Speech
in Thailand News
Posted
The HRW report is even handed giving no comfort to extremists from either side, whether from the far left or miltary cheerleaders.The thought processes behind your post are so obscure that it's difficult to respond.I gather however from your agitation that you are uncomfortable with some home truths being addressed.That is what I would have expected.However on a point of detail you are completely wrong namely that while the report quotes a single source it does not draw general conclusions from it.
Next step I suppose is to accuse the HRW of being in the pay of Thaksin!