jayboy

Just because the girl comes from a certain family doesn't mean the laws and views need to be applied differently and it seems few people are waiting for facts before assuming she is going to get off without any punishment. She may be a selfish girl who cares little about this incident but she may also be suffering greatly now and for the rest of her life because of it ... how can we know what is going on in her head then or now?

Not to disparage what you have said, as I agree with most of it. If I had been the one driving and caused such horrific devastation I doubt I would have behaved any differently than the 16 year old girl, and we can all be careless and make mistakes. There but for the grace of God go I and all that. However, don't get overly generous here. I think it is extremely unlikely this person will suffer any serious consequences for her behavior. We can wait to be sure, but please don't start trying to convince any of us that someone like this is going to receive the same treatment that your or me or the average Somchai would receive in this situation. She may or may not have the moral character to feel bad about what she has done. We will probably never know.

But I can essentially guarantee that neither she nor whoever authorized her to drive that vehicle will be severely punished for that reprehensible act. There is a 2 tier justice system in this country, like it or not. And if she isn't personally devastated about what she has done, it means that there will be no justice for the victims. I don't like it, but that is the way it is. You are mistaken if you think this is not true.

That is something that should be mentioned, because such a cultural reality is a blight on this country. It is not an overreaction by a bunch of curmudgeons on Thai Visa.

Very sensible post indeed.

Your second para is so accurate.I wonder whether TAWP will be indicating his agreement on this occasion.

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable. I suppose that's the freedom that democracy truly offers, but is unmentionable to a Red Shirt.

The kind of sickening and psychotic thinking behind this post in an ideal world would be very rare.Unfortunately in Thailand it isn't as evidenced by the clearly psychotic social networking response (particularly on Facebook) after the army's violent clearance, e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-thai-social-media-anti-red-shirt-campaigns/

It was obvious to many here last spring that most foreign journalists didn't understand things close enough to give accurate reporting.

It was obvious at the time and increasingly clear since then.

Obvious to you and those who think like you possibly.Most longer term residents (particularly those who have worked professionally here over many years) took a more nuanced and informed view.

I spoke to a Cambridge friend at the BBC who confirmed there had indeed been complaints from foreigners in Thailand.He said it was strange that many of them seemed to have been penned by semi literates who had difficulty in pulling their thoughts together in a rational argument.

My own view is that while there were some legitimate complaints about foreign reporting, it was on the whole quite fair.Much of the displeasure seemed to be because it touched on some home truths that the supine Thai press tended to ignore.Still I agree the Bangkok middle class, Thailand's "useful idiots" didn't enjoy the scrutiny.

I think even Thaksin obsessives realise this government would rather have k. Thaksin stay away than return to Thailand to be apprehended. It's only when k. Noppadon or k. Prompong suggest k. Thaksin will go see some commssion or another that the government starts it's spin again to keep k. Thaksin hopping around, unsettled. No surprise what so ever.

You state a rational position with which I agree.

However on this very forum (the usual suspects of course) there are those who maintained he is bound, for fear of extradition, to hop in a panic from one third world hell hole to another.It's a dreamworld they inhabit, fuelled I agree by the likes of little Kasit, because long ago they lost the ability to think rationally about Thaksin and his influence.

Mind you, some civilised countries choose the next best option: 'no visa'.

That's a very valid point.

Still generally on this subject the public has been fed a pack of lies by little Kasit and others.Many Thaksin obsessives on this forum were taken in.

May be it 's time for me to start to learn English. Can anyone explain to me why PM Abhisit 'admitted' that k. Thaksin is living in Dubai? Did the PM try to hide him there?

Nothing to admit to. He simply stated that it is known Thaksin lives there.

The interesting tidbit is that he stated that the extradition treaty is not good enough in Dubai,

which may have quite a bit why Thaksin has chosen Dubai.

That's possible.

It's also possible that Abhisit was acknowledging extradition is unlikely anywhere given the primary political motivation of any request.He's not going to acknowledge that openly but unlike many who have ranted about this subject the PM is an intelligent man who understands these matters well.No civilised country would extradite Thaksin.

Here's an open question: Who's the biggest liar in this quartet?

Amsterdam, Noppadam, Thaksin or Jatupon?

I know it's a tough question, so don't bother wracking your brain for an answer.

Anywho, the more I hear about this 'leaded' report (particularly with Jatupon's name attached to it), the more it smells like sewer gas. How hard would it be for an insider like Jatupon to get some documents which looked official (from DSI or some related agency), and simply doctor them up a bit to suit his agenda? His agenda being to besmrich the government by any means, with no concern for truth. Have you ever doctored or fudged a document? I have. It's the easiest thing to do, with scissors, a smidgen of glue, some white-out and access to a copy machine. What's the worse that could happen to Jatupon if charged? ....not worse than the legal charges he would face without the parliamentary immunity he already flaunts.

But the awkward fact remains.Unarmed civilians were shot in the streets of Bangkok by the army.Most fair minded people recognise that the army acted generally professionally in a difficult but necessary task.However the deaths of civilians (and others) needs to be properly investigated. Politicians and generals need to be made accountable.This has not yet happened nor in my opinion is it likely to.

One can reflect on these points and consider their implications.Alternatively one can rant hysterically (forged documents, pleaaaase...) about Amsterdam,Jatuporn,Thaksin etc... anything other than contemplate the reality rather than the means by which it became generally known.

The fact that you believe the DSI chief over Reuters says enough I think.

Snarky comment...? And how did Reuters know for sure they had received the report from a genuine member of the DSI?

Just another case of reds distorting the truth to spread hate.

I suggest you re-read your post.

You make a highly speculative and unsubstantiated comment, and then proceed to draw a conclusion from it.

Analogy? I only say I do not condemn people or current organisations for the wrong done almost a generation ago.

As for ISOC not having changed, your opinion to which you are entitled

(totally of topic, but 'easily the best armies'?. You're a friend of Rich Lott I guess )

You miss the point.ISOC essentially hasn't changed.The others you mention have completely.

Who is Rich Lott?

I am quite interested in the comparative strength of the military in WW2.Although the Russians made the greatest contribution I think the German army - possibly just ahead of the Japanese army - was man for man the highest quality.There are some troubling questions about the British army performance (and even more troublingly the abysmal Australian performance) and Max Hastings has written interestingly about both these subjects.Americans began poorly but quite formidable at the end.Rommel thought the New Zealanders were the best troops he had to face.

No offence, but stupid question. Of course I'm aware of what the ISOC in it's previous incarnations has done, just google/yahoo a bit and you can read about it. I try to ignore nothing, not even provocative remarks.

Ah so the question is stupid.The vehemence (and silliness) of that comment suggests I have struck a raw nerve.

The ISOC is an organisation with blood on its hands, and still has the same repressive and if necessary murderous profile it always did.I would have thought that was a point you might have mentioned in your generally benign remarks on it.But perhaps you hadn't started googling then.

Well at least you started to reply to the contents of the post.

Just as I do not condemn Dr. Weng and a few others for being communists in the 70's, I do not want to hold 70's/80's repression against the ISOC of today. I've even forgiven the current generation of Germans for what happened in my country in 40-45. That's how benign and forgiving I am

Analogy doesn't really work I'm afraid.Germans as with the Japanese have abandoned their martial past (easily the best armies in WW2).Thai commies have become standard harmless lefties or metamorphised into capitalists.As for ISOC nothing has changed and it remains committed as ever to a repressive role and defending the indefensible, attack dogs for the greedy elite (I would have said entrenched a year or so ago but clearly its days are numbered).

No offence, but stupid question. Of course I'm aware of what the ISOC in it's previous incarnations has done, just google/yahoo a bit and you can read about it. I try to ignore nothing, not even provocative remarks.

Ah so the question is stupid.The vehemence (and silliness) of that comment suggests I have struck a raw nerve.

The ISOC is an organisation with blood on its hands, and still has the same repressive and if necessary murderous profile it always did.I would have thought that was a point you might have mentioned in your generally benign remarks on it.But perhaps you hadn't started googling then.

ISOC is especially setup to safeguard Thailand. ISOC falls under and reports to the office of the PM.

The ISOC is modeled along the US Homeland Security Department setup.

As a matter of interest are you aware of ISOC's appalling record, including atrocities against civilians over several decades (particularly in the 1960's and 1970's) as well as as more recent abuses? Or are you aware and just prefer to ignore it?

Maybe Khun Korn should respond to the actual viability and reality of these 'claims'.

Well perhaps that would be problematic given that he is energetically promoting very similar programmes - and for the same reasons.

Actually I wouldn't mind if Jatuporn is one of the main people presenting this, as it would then be more likely to be discredited and/or dismissed.

Exactly.

Amid all this predictable (and frankly rather commonplace ) ranting about Jatuporn, the mor interesting and relevant question of reliable sources has been exposed rather brutally by recent Wikileaks revelations.It now appears certain that the Thai establishment has been lying through its teeth on a whole range of matters to the Thai people - putting little Jatuporn in the shade.Still as has been often observed, against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.

And will we ever get ANYTHING on the Red Shirts part?

Depends who you mean by "we".

That si the job of an opposition. Hopefully they will do it well with clear cut evidence. The coutnry has seen enough of lies and inuendo. Hopefully they will also find someone other than Jatuporn to present the evidence, so it doesnt start as tainted.

Hammered

If clear cut and indisputable evidence is presented then surely it doesn't much matter where it comes from - Jatuporn,Robert Amsterdam, Wikikleaks or Rupert the Bear.

I think it's too easy to write of information because the source is seen to be "tainted" in some way.

After all what's source for the goose is source for the gander.(Sorry, couldn't resist it..Happy Christmas)

The source does matter. Many people rule out The Nation as a source (and without any verification from other sources I am not too sure I blame them!) If someone repeatedly lies and gets caught lying then they will be discredited out of hand. (Producing doctored youtube stuff to play over and over .... well .... can you trust him?) Similar to the "Boy who cried Wolf!"

I think it's fair to say that a dubious source (you mention PTP) needs to be treated with scepticism.My point was however that sometimes truth emerges from the most unlikely quarters, particularly in a climate of censorship and self censorship such as Thailand.

That si the job of an opposition. Hopefully they will do it well with clear cut evidence. The coutnry has seen enough of lies and inuendo. Hopefully they will also find someone other than Jatuporn to present the evidence, so it doesnt start as tainted.

Hammered

If clear cut and indisputable evidence is presented then surely it doesn't much matter where it comes from - Jatuporn,Robert Amsterdam, Wikikleaks or Rupert the Bear.

I think it's too easy to write of information because the source is seen to be "tainted" in some way.

After all what's source for the goose is source for the gander.(Sorry, couldn't resist it..Happy Christmas)

It isn't a matter of fawning, Kuhn A. -- it is just that they are in charge; you aren't...

If the Thai IMM policy makers are so oblivious to what would really be in the Kingdom's best interests, maybe those best interests as YOU see them have not been packaged properly by those who might have some influence on such misguided persons whose policies are now configured -- in your humble opinion -- to have Thailand remain an Asian backwater.

As far as long-term alien resident rights in Thailand go, the #1 volume poster on the ThaiVisa Finance Forum refers to US Government officials as 'our jailers' who deny US citizens their fundamental Constitutional Rights so I guess you cannot win.

BTW as far as robust debates go I would say the attention span of the average TV reader is about 2 sentences ... and they are far more interested in how to comply with the IMM regulations as they exist today rather than your robust opinion on what you think the regulations should be ...

Arkady can and no doubt will speak for himself, but I think you have completely missed the point.It is not a question of what we as foreigners think the regulations should or should not be.In brief an anachronistic situation has developed where a very large number of foreign retirees on modest incomes, and on short term visas have settled permanently in the Kingdom.There was no government policy directive underpinning this and the Thai authorities have regulated with a light hand but on an ad hoc basis.Given the rapid economic and social transformation of Thailand it is logical that a long hard look at this sector will be undertaken.It cannot be ruled out that such an overhaul would involve a very substantial increase in financial criteria.This is not just speculation:the trend is already there to see - for example the large increase in fee for successful PR applicants (and these are people who unlike most retirees are well educated and relatively well off).

The Navy yesterday deployed its aircraft carrier and an amphibious landing ship to help flood victims in the South.

Good to see that that monstrously expensive, unjustified, absurd and vainglorious aircraft carrier purchase being applied to some useful purpose.

Still if the cost (and the corrupt pockets it helped fill) had been applied to disaster relief decades of funding would have been available.

How the Spaniards must have laughed behind closed doors at the useless Thai tossers responsible for military procurement

The Democratic Party screeched to high heaven about these very policies when Thaksin suggested or enacted them. Yet now Abhisit and the Dems enact these very same policies they wept crocodile tears about.

I can see how the Reds are cynical and disdainful of that. I also understand how many here, blinders firmly attached, have no clue as to what the fuss is about.

I think if you look at the detail, the policies are different.

Popular, yes, but not simply cash handouts, or unfunded or unsustainable spending.

Can you demonstrate exactly how?

Or is it just another example of bending the truth to fit a political agenda?

To begin with it is a Nation article.

That in it self lends very little credibility to the article.

That being said. What is the truth.

From my vantage point it is a group of armed peace lovers going on a camping trip in down town Bangkok and to maintain the camping experience they stopped thousands of honest innocent citizens from making a living. All so they can camp out and get a pay check from out of country.

When the Government asked them to move out they resisted. They also refused to negotiate. They just said I want and would excepted nothing else. In the end the Government had to use force and they retaliated with weapons. There by turning a peaceful camping trip into a armed conflict.

Why is every one so down on the government for stopping them. There refusal to negotiate gave the government no choice. If any thing they should be down on the government for letting it go on so long.

The government did no wrong. Don't any body even try to say they were firing on unarmed civilians. They like in many wars were the support for a armed conflict they knew what was happening and choose to support the conflict.

In any war there is a large civilian support system that gets killed. This was no different. Time to accept the reality of what happened and move on.

Thailand did not deserve what the red shirts choose to give it and they do not deserve to have to nit pick over it to no concevable good. All they do is divert energy away from beneficial projects.

Interesting how agitated some become whenever the events earlier this year are scrutinised, "nitpicking to no conceivable good.... the government did no wrong.... time to move on" etc.I doubt whether many pay much attention to jayjay's hysterical agitprop but one lie has however to be nailed because the army, notwithstanding its overall professional behaviour, did fire on unarmed civilians.One could in addition as plausibly argue that the red shirts did not deserve their treatment.The reality of course is that no side was blameless.Nevertheless it is the responsibility of Abhisit to ensure a proper accounting for the death toll.And The Nation is quite right to call for this.

Are you trying to say that the complain has never been uttered by the Red Shirts before or that it is common for PM's to run to other nations diplomats and make complaints along the line of 'Mommy, they are bad to me!'?

I entirely take your point that Samak had a bee in his proverbial.

But what's emerging is multiple sources, quite distinct from Samak.

If you agree, I think we should close this necessarily oblique exchange down.

Latest wiki leaks post by the Guardian has explosive revelations - Samak committed LM.

Superb! You have managed in your reference to Samak's alleged LM headlined the most uninteresting and least relevant of the revelations.

Eh, no, his complaint IS the most important aspect.

As the allegation is already known, has been murmured for years now, and not proven.

However, that a PM would go to US diplomats and complain about it - unheard of.

And to point out again: Just because he complains about it doesn't make it true. Hence, his allegation has equal value now as when they were first surfacing years ago - i.e. not much.

I'm not often speechless on this forum.This is one of the few occasions I'm lost for words.

Do you have a hat? Will you be prepared to eat it?

again I find myself agreeing with Jayboy.

Scary!

Wonders will never cease.But actually I'm always ready to engage in a give or take discussion.I've never claimed to be omniscient and have learned a lot from people like you with whom I usually disagree.I think what pisses people off is not my views but my hauteur.I'm working on that!

Latest wiki leaks post by the Guardian has explosive revelations - Samak committed LM.

Superb! You have managed in your reference to Samak's alleged LM headlined the most uninteresting and least relevant of the revelations.