mauGR1

The problem with words is that one can be easily misunderstood, and one can misunderstand others. For that very reason, i tend to trust my inner feelings as much as words that i hear. Should i go into a church, or a temple, I would not trust everyone there to be a believer... perhaps I have more chances to meet a believer by the river, or on the top of a mountain.

Actually it's an interesting variation of the "liar paradox ' , which is probably as ancient as humans. Here's a definition: philosophy and logic, the classical liar paradox or liar's paradox or antinomy of the liar is the statement of a liar that they are lying: for instance, declaring that "I am lying". If the liar is indeed lying, then the liar is telling the truth, which means the liar just lied.

Btw, i have to say that i don't consider myself a "believer " in a strict sense. ..perhaps 50% ???? I am born cynical apparently, and, should I discover one day that :" I don't really believe in anything ", i would not be really surprised.

Do you really believe that Buddha said those exact words, accurately translated from Sanskrit or Hindi, when the scriptures were not even existing, or confined to a small elite of Brahmins. .. or perhaps you justt like the thought expressed.. Which is a paradox btw... And do you think that adding one of the several artistic renditions of the Buddha ( I suppose he's Sakhiamuni Buddha) makes it more credible? Imho, "question everything " sums it up pretty nicely.

That's interesting. What you mean for "the guerrilla " ?

Ok, it's just an analogy to explain how difficult is to prove the existence of the spirit to those who cannot perceive it. Another analogy ? Of course you identify with your physical body , but also with your dreams, your thoughts, your set of morals. Now, if one hits your body, you feel a physical pain, if one offends your morals, you'll feel pain in your soul. Does your soul exist or not ?

If it was spiritual, you would not see or hear it. I hope you understand that's just an analogy. As a personal curiosity, how would you explain colors to a blind person?

Well, for me, having experienced altered states of consciousness, and I'm not referring specifically to drugs and the such, it's just obvious. Yet, I think I can understand your point of view, and i admit that it's difficult, if not impossible for me to explain "how" matter is a projection of the spirit, so i will add a quote , which might or might not be useful to you: "We must, however, be clear that all that makes itself visible to our eyes derives from the spirit. There is no material thing that does not have a spiritual basis. Now for a more frequently-used analogy. A child shows us some ice. We say, “This is water in another form.” The child will then say, “You say that it is water but yet it is ice.” Whereupon we will say, “You do not know how water becomes ice.” So it is for him who does not know that matter is condensed spirit."

Sure ! And you should know already. Thanks in advance for your umpteenth negative reaction ???? i said a thousand times that spiritual (consciousness) and material ( brain) co-exist, in different states of reality, or realms. To state that consciousness originated from the brain is as true as saying that brain originated from consciousness.

555 sorry, perhaps I'm confusing the posts, moreover it happens that, thinking about the highest principles, i confuse myself too ????

Well, perhaps you mean these are the questions which i left unanswered. I cannot answer for all believers, obviously. I would say that everyone, believers, non believers and doubters have multiple purposes, and priorities, so i guess we are somehow in agreement. Again, when i was talking about purpose, my doubt was referring to the purpose of intelligent design, for those who believe in it. It's surely of interest to discuss every individual's purpose, but in this case I was talking about the God's purpose.

Surely I'm willing to answer those questions, and I'm surprised I've missed them. Pls, can you redirect me exactly to which post, or which questions i failed to answer ?

Of course i don't agree, but that's the crux of the matter. One can say the sun shines and the earth go round because of the brain, without fearing to debunked. If there was no brain to detect reality, reality would not exist. That's fair enough, i think . Yet, my safe bet is that some sort of reality would exist regardless of humans. Some go as far as saying it would be better ????

I got insulted countless times on this thread, just for inviting folks to think about it, so it must be true. It's difficult for me to say which mammals are higher on the hierarchy, but i would bet on elephants.

Perhaps better watching TV eh ????

Angels have an individual consciousness too, oh, but you don't believe they exist. Dogs, cats, the most evolved mammals, have a "collective I " and you can easily find out just observing the limited range of their possible behaviors. ...pls stay assured that i don't want to convince you of anything, I'm just free to state my opinion as much as you ????

Well, i tend to believe the different experiences told by some spiritual masters, although those experiences could be subjective. Imho, they have no reason to tell lies. R. Steiner, who is considered a master by accredited Indian yogis, used to call the state of sleep as " little death ", so comparing the waking state to the sleep state is perhaps useful.

Instead of calling me arrogant, why don't you try to look and understand the living beings around you ? That way, at least you won't have so much time to embarrass yourself with silly remarks ????

I don't know, but according to many respected masters who have been investigating the issue, several lives are needed to achieve freedom from the cycle of life and death. Apparently, Buddha himself vowed to come back here periodically, until the last sentient being is freed.

Investigating the "I " is surely interesting on the way of spiritual development. While the "I " can be sometimes a burden, it's in fact a sort of a gift to humans, if we look at the other animals living on this planet. Some believe in suppressing the "I " as the goal, but imho, the "I " is like a multi faceted object which is to be polished, to get rid of useless parts. Perhaps the goal is to make of our "I " a beautiful work of art. I am also suspecting that planets, as much as stars, are self-conscious beings. What is the solar system if not a giant atom, and what is an atom if not a minuscule solar system? Space-time could be, after all, just an illusion, which exists as long as our "I " is tied to a human body.

Yes, what you say makes sense, and i have to concede that sometimes the words 'drive' and 'purpose ' may be interchangeable. However, I think that 'purpose ' is more associated with reason and logic, while 'drive ' is biological. By the way, when I brought 'purpose ' in the debate, it was intended as the purpose of the existence of the samsara, which of course has connections to our personal, individual purpose.

There is a subtle difference even between 'drive' and 'motive'. However, reproduction is a 'drive', but 'purpose ' can overcome the 'drive' if there's a 'motive'.. As an example, i may have a 'drive' to drink 1 more beer, but if my 'purpose' is to have longer life, 'purpose' will be at odds with 'drive'. Sometimes 'purpose ' will win, sometimes it will be defeated by 'drive'.

There's a difference between "being driven " and "having a purpose ". Do i really need to explain it to you ? Well, no, pls try to find out by yourself ????

Ok, so after praising yourself and your atheist friends as the true pillars or society, you are saying that most of the dumb, biased believers couldn't be further from truth and reality... That sounds so unbiased, why didn't i think about it before... Oh well, perhaps I should consider becoming an atheist then ????

Have you ever seen pictures of planet earth taken from different altitudes, there are a few taken from the moon too. Well, it's not that difficult to imagine the planet as a unity, with all its living beings. Some could say it's a wonderful work of engineering. As for the individual sense of purpose, yep everyone is different, sometimes extremely complicated, , as a great master said, every single human, in a way, is a species himself.