daboyz1

And only a general amnesty will allow that to happen

you forgot to add, until the next time. A general amnesty is a green light to rinse and repeat.

Amnesty???!?!?!?!??!

Are you saying this is not about democracy and holding elections?

Certainly the red mob leaders are not concerned with criminal charges. This would be impossible because nobody would say on a daily basis that "their" people are willing to die for democracy at the hands of soldiers but then not be willing to face criminal charges.

Just look at Thaksin. A lot of people would say he is a coward and punk for running away, from a 2-year sentence that would have almost surely been suspended if he stuck around, but the truth is he went overseas to fight for democracy on a global basis.

I'm thinking that's a joke. You should put a at the end so everyone knows.

Of course, the reds are using this against the yellows, and it appears to in some way be acceptable as an excuse.

Acceptable by whom?

The reds were supposed to be fighting against amongst other things, minority groups forcing their will on a nation (ie yellow's airport protest), and yet are using exactly the same tactics. You can't fight against something that yourself are guilty of and expect people to believe in what you are saying.

So now the yellows take over the train stations? Where does it all end?

That's like me saying me neighbor got away with murder, it must be ok then?

Awful place. No natural sence of right and wrong.

....Sadly, I refer to all aspects of life here.

I'm an engineer here and not a day goes by without me being offered bribes and backhanders.

Contractors always try to cut corners. Theft is rife.

I get short changed and generally ripped off continually,

Even family are a bunch of liars and cheats if I am to be honest.

Everyone has different experiences in life, and is entitled to their opinion. I'm sorry for this poster's sad experiences in Thailand.

When I read some other posts which demand Red blood (often thinly disguised as disgust at Abhisit for being weak), I'm led to wonder whether the sort of bitterness being quite honestly expressed in the above post isnt the underlying pyschological reason for these blood curdling war cries?

Ripped off in a business deal, unlucky in love (or whatever), suffering from a bad economy: none of these are acceptable reasons to come to the conclusion that people should die.

What's happening in Thailand now is not some gladitorial fight to the death in the Roman Coliseum where fans went to excorcise their inner demons. Nor is it a computer game where deaths are virtual.

Thank heavens Abhisit and the generals, if not some TV posters, are wise and measured in their approach to this revolt.

I agree with most of that... I guess. What would you have the govt. do? Go sing songs around a campfire and kiss and make up. I think you're being a little naieve here. The protester leaders WANT violence. That way the poor red farmer can be a martyr to the cause. Sound familiar? Govt. met their demand about the election. After that they change the rules. The protest leaders do not want a peaceful solution, and I honestly do feel bad for the people that follow them. But order must be restored.

How can they solve this problem ? They are not the governement .

The only thing they can do is to protest . Maybe based on 40 years

experience some of the reds do not believe the present administration care much .

Do you blame them ?

Others reds , more moderate ones , like Veera , are willing i think to give Abhisit a chance .

The reds are tanking the economy, that is going to hurt the people they claim to care for, while at the same time not proposing any solutions or projects to improve their situation in life.

So tell me, for all the grief and damage this protest is causing, what are the benefits to those poor, downtrodden masses that it will achieve?

So your solution is that the red should not had protested and kept silent ?

Well in every situation you got pro and cons , you dont make omelletes without breaking

eggs . If more pro then cons they its worth it .

My view is that the reds should go home now and give a chance to the PM to make good on his promises

But I am not thai , I am not a red p[rotester , and frankly i dont know if i am right

They can protest and campaign in favor of a more egalitarian society, programs to help the poor and anything else they desire. If that's what they would be all about I'll be a supporter of them, but what they can't (or shouldn't) do is disrupt the lives of thousands in doing so, promote violence and disunion in Thai society and try to get things done their way not on the basis of having convincing arguments that will sway the vote of the people in a free election, but by the use of illegitimate force and coercion against the rest of the population and the government.

They don't offer solutions, they just want to kick the board and see if they (the leaders and men behind assorted curtains) can reap some benefit when rearranging the pieces.

I was born under a dictatorship that lasted over a decade, at some point peaceful (as in no riots, threats of burning down cities or leveling government buildings, banks and religious places) protest and campaigning brought enough pressure to force the military junta to call a referendum. They made demands that were hard to swallow, banned a political party from taking part and asked for amnesty in return; all was negotiated for the greater good of returning to democracy. For the first few elections cycles some things were shaky but everybody kept working for change and better democracy from within the boundaries of legality so that after 20 something years now the democratic institutions are the strongest in the region.

If the red shirts would be campaigning within legal parameters they could actually do more to improve the lives of the people they claim to be representing. Distribute leaflets, make political rallies to explain what they want to do, cater for voters by showing how they plan to make their lives better and how they intend to give them a voice in the halls of government.

They asked for anticipated elections, they got that but then refused; if they are truly the voice of the people, the majority, if they are so sure of the righteousness of their cause why not have people vote yes or no for what they propose? Abhisit suggested having a referendum for that, but they also said no, so how can they be trusted when they say they want democracy when they have refused all the offers to democratically put their position to the test of the electorate?

Have them call in a referendum, see if the majority of people in the country want to see parliament dissolved, the constitution revoked and the red shirts leaders given amnesty. Because that's how things are done in a democracy, people vote (freely) to make this sort of decisions. Then I'll believe that the red shirts are fighting for democracy.

Great Post!!

It almost makes me wish Thaksin would come back. For all his flaws, indecisiveness was not one of them.

I take military rule before a corrupt and power hungry politician any time.

I second that.

I told you yesterday: Even though it's affecting our well being in daily life and to our frustration, you must admit that the Reds are doing a great job, keeping on fighting for what they believe in. That teaches the government that they are being challenged and that oppositions do not back down easily like in a video game where you just press reset button to start all over again...

What exactly do they believe in? They wanted early elections. Abhisit said fine. The they changed the goal posts with this Suthep stuff. I don't think they know what they believe in. Only thing I can tell is they want parliament dissolved immediately. That's not gonna happen.

Its just that the list is so long now that we tend to forget many of their violent and illegal actions when responding to supporters of this violent mob.

I mean what about

1) Storming Parliament

2) Storming EC HQ

3) Refusing police requests on where to protest

4) Beating police

5) Throwing fire bombs at police

6) Stealing weapons

7) Putting 60k+ people out of work

8) $_____ of damage to the economy

9) Storming a hospital

10) Closing down and holding hostage an entire commercial district

This is just a start ... there is so much more and would love to be able to cut and paste the list as response to people somehow justifying their actions.

So, please feel free to add to this list.

I think the problem is that the yellow shirts have set an example and the army/police back then have shown that it's okay to do it and they won't do anything about it. Neither has this government, in over 1 1/2 years in office, done anything to bring the yellow shirt leaders to justice for their actions, which are:

1) Storming parliament.

2) Holding parliament hostage for 8 months.

3) Storming 2 international airports.

4) Holding 2 international airports hostage for 10 days.

5) Holding airplanes hostage, which took days to be released.

6) Beating police and army during street protests.

7) Using firearms to shoot at police and army during street protests.

8) Attacking the airport terminals with grenades.

9) Preventing hundreds of thousands of tourists from leaving Thailand.

10) Causing billions of Baht in damages.

Feel free to add to the list.

You see, the problem is that the government hasn't done anything to bring the yellow shirts to justice, which shows the red shirts it's okay to do it and get away with it. In their view, it's a perfectly acceptable method of pushing a government out of office. It was okay for the yellow shirts to do it, so why shouldn't it be okay for the red shirts to do it too?

Just showing you where it's coming from. I keep seeing people mentioning that Thaksin killed 4,000+ suspected drug dealers while in office. Why hasn't Abhisit done anything in 1 1/2 years in office to prosecuted the officials responsible for carrying out these acts? Even the Human Rights Watch has mentioned that Ahisit hasn't done anything. Here is an extract from the Human Rights Report:

Human Rights Watch commends your government for initially supporting the reopening of investigations into the 2,819 extrajudicial killings that allegedly accompanied former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's "war on drugs" in 2003. However, we are concerned that progress has stalled in holding accountable all those responsible, particularly because of strong resistance by the Royal Thai Police, which was implicated in many of these killings. We urge the government to redouble its efforts to bring perpetrators of these killings to justice, to dismiss those individuals involved, and to end systematic police brutality and abuse of power in drug suppression operations.

Same old red arguments. Yellows did it first yellows did it first.

Guys can you grow up and take responsibility. Two wrongs dont make a right.

Dont even know why I bother even replying to this red rubbish. Like kids in the school ground they cant get past pointing at the other kid and claiming everything they do is ok because the other kid did it first

Is there a red supporter out there who can put a good case which doesn't start with yellows did it first. Please anyone?

NO there's not. They are just a bunch of immature school children being lead around by Mr. T who could care less about them or Thailand. Maybe I don't get it. But it sure seems to me that he is supporting all this financially so he can get his money, and get his charges dropped. Maybe his power back as well. If he REALLY cared about the reds, he would be up on stage spewing the same ignorance as the rest. Instead he hides out in his Aircon suite in Dubai while his "supporters" roast on the streets of Bangkok.

Maybe you didn't read my posts. Please let me explain what it says.

1. My post doesn't address Samak or Thaksin not does it say anything about Parlimentary elections of a PM. It merely points out that with interrventon of the court that the Thai citizens were given no voice in the election of Abhisit.

2. I didn't say anything about who fired first. I merely pointed out that the Thai government used its army to kill fellow Thai citizens.

3. I don't see what any party affiliation has to do with my post. I merely pointed out that the UK government was capable of making a peaceful transition of government to an opposition party in a very short period of time contrary to the contempt that has been demonstrated by the Thai government.

4. I was only pointing out that the government made many public pronouncement in media about ahhving told so and so to do such and such. I was reflecting on how their communication was largely ignored. You seem to have an axe to grind but it doesn't apply to my post.

I hope it is clear what I said now. If you want to rebut a statement please try to rebut what is posted and not what you want to rail about.

Nice backpedalling, but you still left a few strings.

1. NOW you are blaming the courts. Before you didn't mention them. Elaborate a bit, your answer is a bit ambiguous.

2. So it's wrong for a nation to defend itself against an armed insurrection?

3. Yes, the British did things the democratic way - through voting, not by holding a city hostage, holding voodoo blood rituals (talk about shaming Thailand in the eyes of the world!), forcing the evacuation of hospitals, threatening to destroy the transit system and lying to media and the government.

4. No sources? Shocking. Not.

Then why Abhisit did not do it the democratic way , same as the british , through general elections ? What choice left to the reds tell me ?

Man this is getting old. Two things. First a new election isn't due until late next year I believe. Second, all the reds/PTP have to do is call a no confidence vote. They wont do it because they know they'll lose. So in order to get their way, they take Bangkok hostage.

Have a fun read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand_Government

1. Its a coalition, if the MPs were unhappy, or their constituents were unhappy with Abhisit, they would vote for no confidence. MPs often vote against their coalition in other governments, and this would also give the coalition partners a chance to switch sides if they were unhappy with Abhisit. After all the PTP/UDD have told us Abhisit is a horrid murder, with blood on his hands and bloodthirsty for more and the majority of Thai people support the Reds. Surely if this was remotely true, a no confidence vote would pass, with either whole parties abandoning the coalition, or individual MPs voting against the wishes of their party bosses.

2. Even if the no confidence vote fails, it allows the PTP to show the world and the people of Thailand all of Abhisit's crimes to put pressure on him to resign or possibly justify working outside the system (legal protests).

Other Parliamentary governments use no confidence votes all the time. The tool is there, the question is why the PTP/UDD don't work within the system, instead of resorting to extortion and violence?

In this case the PTP/UDD haven't even tried to work within the system, and are actively opposed to allowing the people to vote on reforms to the system via a referendum.

To add to that, Abhisit has offered to call elections one year early, which is what they wanted. When he gave them that, they came up with all this Suthep business not reporting to the right agency etc. I would guess that if Suthep reported to the agency they wanted, the reds would come up some other frivilous demand.

They don't want elections. They want Mr. T back and acquitted of all charges, and put back in palace as PM.

If the case against Abhisit was so strong, the proper action would be to hold a no confidence vote, which would allow the PTP to put Abhisit "on trial" and show the world all the evidence of wrong doing they have on him. However the PTP (the political branch of the UDD) has said they will not seek to hold a no confidence vote.

It doesn't help seeking a no-confidence vote if the majority in the parliament are part of the coalition that still support Abhisit. Or are you suggesting that Newin will vote for Abhisit to leave? No way, because he knows when Abhisit leaves, so will he.

Thanks for spelling it out for those who may have thought you were pro-democracy.

Yawn, I know I shouldn't feed him, but I just HAVE to respond to the first point.

1. Intervention of the courts didn't give us the current PM. Abhisit became PM because the coalition partners of the PPP/PTP jumped ship and formed a new coalition with the Democrats.

yeah I'm done beating my head against the wall.

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

The rest of the world has observed as the UK has now installed a new PM after holding their election in a civilized manner while the Thai government has continued to delay the disolution of the parliment and hold a new election. The rest of the civilized world has watched as the Thai governement has used lethal force on Thai citizens and refused to respect the claims of Thai citizens for a legitimate election. The Thai government continues to threaten Thai citizens to try to coerce them into allowing the current government to treat them as inferior people without the human rights that should be accorded to all Thai citizens.

The current Thai government has irreparably damaged the reputation of Thailand in the community of soverign nations. They may hang on for a while but they will always be remembered for their disenfranchisement of many Thai citizens and the use of the Thai military to kill their friends and neighbors.

yawnnnnnnnn

when are you red sympathizers going to come up with some new material?

please give us some sort of challenge and not just post the same dribble that has been shot down so many times here.

I calmly read your post. It said nothing.

Facts which I included:

1. The Thai people had no voice in the election of Abhisit.

2. April 10, 2010 will be a day of infamy in Thailand as the The government ordered its soldiers to fire on their friends and neighbors and fellow Thai citizens. Hopefully there will be time for a trial in the Hague sometime in the future.

3. Uk has demonstated how a civilized nation transitions peacefully to a new leadership. They showed real class while Thai goverment only showed contempt for its citizens.

4. The current government has made many public requests of other nations to help them which have been ignored and have made no diplomatic requests that have been acknowledged. This speaks loudly about the pitiful reputation of the current Thai government.

Sorry you were unable to rebut anything.

I'm not sure why I bother responding to this, but I will anyway.

1. The Thai people DO NOT directly elect the PM. MP's elect the PM. I doubt you were crying for elections when Samak took over for Thaksin, and then Somchai took over for Samak. No elections then.

2. Someone from the crowd fired first. Soldiers died. They were defending themselves.

3. Thank you for pointing this out. See point 1. You dont see the Labour supporters taking over London because they didn't win.

4. Why should the Thai government ask for foreign help on a domestic matter? When the US had their election issues in 2000, You didn't see them asking Thailand or any other country for help mediating that. It was settled by the courts.

Game, set, match. I suggest you understand how a consititutional monarchy works before you post again. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand_Government

Happy reading.

The rest of the world has observed as the UK has now installed a new PM after holding their election in a civilized manner while the Thai government has continued to delay the disolution of the parliment and hold a new election. The rest of the civilized world has watched as the Thai governement has used lethal force on Thai citizens and refused to respect the claims of Thai citizens for a legitimate election. The Thai government continues to threaten Thai citizens to try to coerce them into allowing the current government to treat them as inferior people without the human rights that should be accorded to all Thai citizens.

The current Thai government has irreparably damaged the reputation of Thailand in the community of soverign nations. They may hang on for a while but they will always be remembered for their disenfranchisement of many Thai citizens and the use of the Thai military to kill their friends and neighbors.

yawnnnnnnnn

when are you red sympathizers going to come up with some new material?

please give us some sort of challenge and not just post the same dribble that has been shot down so many times here.

Exactly. The defense of these terrorists is growing old.

On another note, who's been feeding the fish at the aquarium in the basement? Could be a lot of hungry sharks waiting for a taste of red meat once this is all over.

Where's Veera?

He's sleeping with the fishes?

The redshirt movement always was a very fishy one, and the shark in Dubai certainly has his hooks in them. If their food supplies are cut it will be aquarium supplied fish suppers all round. I wonder if the idiot Aussie on stage will be charged the farang rate when he goes in to catch his?

This was started by the yellow shirts now the reds don't like it if the reds win the yellows won't like it just dissolve parliament forget the government put the military in charge of the country if they can't be civilized and wait in the hope the goverment changes from time to time don't give them a choice no more bickering. Let them bicker about the military junta. Problem solved no yellows no reds only green. seems to be the peacefull solution not a nice one but a solution

Finally.

Could have been done weeks ago.

Agreed! It's about time.

The US should have sent a formal statement through the US Ambassador or embassy. NOT try to have some 'breaking bread' breakfast expecting the anti-government protesters and government to sit down together. How idiotic can you be? Daddy USA would like the two fighting siblings to come to the table and eat? It's like giving the so called 'terrorists' recognition. That's why the democrats didn't show up. The Abhisit administration is the government (whether we like it or not) and if the so called communication lines of diplomacy are to be honored, than the US should have shown it by making a statement through the US Embassy directly to the current Thai government.

I bet the breakfast was held at Burger King.

The title is more than a little misleading....

I doubt any of the people he met with are living at the protest site. They aren't top tier protest leaders. Apparently he came and said "The US thinks Abhisit's plan is a good deal and you should take it."

Probably good advice. The mention of people trying to derail things was certainly aimed at Sae Daeng --- another of Thaksin's lackeys. So ... He comes .. meets with some senior Thaksin lackeys .. says :take the deal and control the violent end of your movement" --- all in very polite diplomatic language that doesn't cost anyone any face.

You can assume that the Dems knew what would be discussed and rather than be there ... they cgose to avoid recriminations and bad blood and having the Thaksin Lackies lose face by not being there.

(Read the article a little more closely and stop being knee-jerk reactionaries!)

Regardless of the reasons why, good or bad, the US still has no business getting mixed up in this. No knee jerk reaction there.

Could you imagine Kasit mediating the health care debate in the US?

The US government has a long time rule never to discuss or negotiate with terrorists. So why is the assistant secretary of state making an exception now? Is it because these terrorists are not threatening the US? Not only Thailand has double standards.

\\

Amen and amen! My brother, who still lives in the states, has been trying to tell me what a disaster this administration is. Now it does this! On behalf of Americans, I apologize for my indescribably stupid government's actions!

I second that on the apology.

Be a bit firkin daft NOT to talk to the reds, considering many/most people think that they would win an election right now.

May be your maid thinks so, but certainly not the majority of Thais

Be a bit firkin daft NOT to talk to the reds, considering many/most people think that they would win an election right now.

They haven't won anything yet. Until they do, the US has no business getting involved.

What a hypocrite! I can't believe the guy would even talk to these red terrorists.

maybe check out the asiatimes online article by Shawn Crispin it lays a how the USA may be involved.

Interesting article. The US seems to have their dirty paws on everything. They should stay out of it.

Disclaimer:

I'm American.

What a hypocrite! I can't believe the guy would even talk to these red terrorists.

Hmm ...3 anonymous forum posts claiming the red shirts are terrorists. US Assistant Secretary of State seems to think otherwise. Hmm, who should I believe. Who's more credible ...hmmm, such a tough question!

Yeah you figured it out. It's a yellow conspiracy. Good job.

What a hypocrite! I can't believe the guy would even talk to these red terrorists.

Did they raid the pharmacy while in the hospital? These guys have to be on drugs to start blaming the hospital.