TravelerEastWest

"But immigration keep busting people and places because they don’t comform to laws they have little or no hope in comforming to.

I wonder sometimes too if local Thais in CM can be approached by us and asked to consider our plight? And it is a plight, no bones about it. Creative and positive and upstanding foreign citizens are being squeezed away from here. This is paritcularly distressing for those who have married Thais, or who have lived here for so long it feels totally like their home.

Is there room, at least, for a debate about this on this forum??

Ideas and reactions most welcome on this thread. Tried to keep the OP as short as possible!"

You ask for ideas and reactions:

1) I like the tone of your OP - you want to see many people be helped - always good.

2) Work permits are not that hard to get. Sometimes you need a boring day job but it is like that all over the world, in short very normal.

3) There are ways already setup for foreigners to talk to the Thai government - through their own country's foreign service. Time consuming and sometimes frustrating yes, but that is how governments are set up - vote, write your elected representative back home.

4) Even better those foreigners who are married to Thais can have their spouse/partner vote and work within the Thai system. In the end this is the best answer to your post.

5) "And it is a plight, no bones about it. Creative and positive and upstanding foreign citizens are being squeezed away from here."

Sorry I don't agree - upstanding citizens follow laws and try to make constructive changes. For those who just complain little will happen.

6) Foreign media can have an influence - so lets see those artists writing letters and articles.

Again I like your OP and it is a good step but a small one. Lets see those who are harmed by the rules do something in a constructive way and not whine and complain.

We have given map for last five marriage extensions, been told to expect visit but so far never had one, I do know of people who have had inspection, stay cool do not worry

Same experience no visits ever including for the first extension.

I think if you show up with your children, have all your documents and you are dressed well you are most likely not going to have a visit.

The world already buys boatloads of Thai orchids.

A few families control the whole market.

What makes you say that a few families control the market? Is this something new?

20 years ago there were many small orchid nurseries and orchid cooperatives.

Not for exports.

I know one family who have 3 major UK retailers in their list of clients.

I can tell you from past experience as an Orchid importer in California that there were many small orchid nurseries in Thailand to buy from and I think there probably are even more now - but I am no longer involved with orchids so I can't say for sure.

One difference between a small and large grower is that sometimes the small grower does not have a good system for finishing cut orchids but working with a Co-Op solves that challenge.

I just did a quick Google search and found one of the nurseries that we used to buy from: http://www.orchidkb.com/orchid.htm

At the time they had several small nurseries but now they seem to have about 25 acres for dendrobiums alone so they are bigger than in the past.

Anyway I have to thank you for prompting me to look as they are beautiful flowers. Living in Thailand I no longer need a green house and a heater - I just tie the plants to trees.

The world already buys boatloads of Thai orchids.

A few families control the whole market.

What makes you say that a few families control the market? Is this something new?

20 years ago there were many small orchid nurseries and orchid cooperatives.

If your wife is Thai you only need two employees.

If you project a low amount of Revenue then you don't need a VAT license.

You need a good CPA that speaks at least some English.

Lawyers are not needed and may cost quite a bit more than a CPA.

I have to disagree and ask you to link the above. Although the Labour dept can issue a permit with less then 4 that does not mean they will. I can tell you chonburi won't. also vat registration was required in chonburi

I was writing from experience not a link. Also I am not fluent in Thai so I would not be able to cite and explain a link - sorry.

I can also tell you that at first I thought that you needed a VAT registration and signed up for one. Later I realized that if you are below a certain level of revenue a VAT registration is not required.

But often the VAT office will make you wait 3 years before you can unregister.

I have heard that different office's have different policies but the law is clear

As for issuing a wp with 2 workers when you have a Thai wife that is very straight forward if they give you a difficult time just hire a good CPA to do it for you.

Also depending where you are at times you can get a 2 year work permit maybe longer if you are under the BOI rules - here I am guessing as I have never worked for a BOI company.

If your wife is Thai you only need two employees.

If you project a low amount of Revenue then you don't need a VAT license.

You need a good CPA that speaks at least some English.

Lawyers are not needed and may cost quite a bit more than a CPA.

Thai orchids are well known already

Infrastructure has been in place for many years.

For example there is a cooperative orchid center where farmers bring their flowers to be hardened for export.

The process involves putting the orchids in rooms with different temperatures and humidity levels.

In the end cut dendrobiums can easily last a month.

Exporters have negotiated discounted rates on airlines.

Thai universities do a good job of training people to do cloning etc.

Overall the Thai orchid market is a good one.

A very interesting thread!

Recently I learned about the Lawa people who are said to have been in Thailand before the Tai people - at least in the north of Thailand.

Just did an extension based on marriage at Chiang Mai.

No witnesses required

One photo at the house number

Just the basic ID forms and bank book etc

They did ask for signatures at immigration not ahead of time and the signatures were to be small to fit inside their stamp.

All very reasonable.

I think house visits and witnesses etc are like an audit they happen but not so often.

Travel East and West,

Firstly I absolutely refute America is a relaxed country. It simply is not anymore. With that said I will say that the process is easy to navigate and acquire all the required documents to bring your spouse. The US Gov Immigration site is easy to use it just takes time and money. Now the spouse cannot just land here and go to work as you are leading people to believe. I have done this process for my wife and have met many others that have. She can enter the country as your wife but until she has all the proper information in the system and in hand she cannot work(legally). Along with bringing my wife here to the states I have brought many Thai nationals over to the US to train on manufacturing processes and know the H1/2 Visa process well.

Now I absolutely agree with you, you do not need an attorney to do this its a waste of money. I also agree you can start much of the process in Thailand. But a VISA stamp in a passport is nothing more than a VISA stamp to be here(unless she has an H1/2). She has quite a few things to complete here prior to launching off into the wild west.

JAFO,

I repeat:

3) Immigration stamped my wife's passport as eligible to work the moment she received her immigration entry stamp.

Please read carefully I did not say that the VIsa was what made working allowed I said the immigration stamp (at the airport)

4) SS cards are easy to get at the same time as your visa - so your comments about needing a SS card are a non issue. Even if you forget to apply for a SS card before going to the US it only takes a few minutes to apply. Having a SS number or TIN for noncitizens does not allow you to work - it is your legal immigration status.

Again a SS card is a non issue - why wouldn't you get it at the same time as the marriage visa? So your visa and SS number are in the system before you arrive in America. Immigration reviews at the airport upon arrival and stamps your passport as eligible to work.

As for America being a relaxed country you are entitled to your personal opinion which I respect - for me tax returns visas etc are simple as they are in English and that is all I need. For a complex tax return you have a CPA prepare the return.

In summary I am 100% certain that what I described is what my wife experienced - end of story - has the rules changed maybe I don't know...

A "green card" visa was simple a few forms, medical test and a fee - done - citizenship as soon as 2 years later contrast that with Thailand and other countries... it is like night and day - America is very relaxed about this subject. How much easier can it get?

Most likely her passport got a I-551 stamp, which is a temporary stamp. It is a 1 year stamp in the passport proving that the passport holder is a permanent resident while they await their permanent resident card. It is considered valid from List A of the I9 form for both proving identity and work authorization. I see them from time to time when verifying employment for kitchen workers, and can't recall if it says valid for work on the stamp.

I am not sure if they stamp all spousal visa's with them or not as my wife entered on a fiancee visa, since we were not married at the time. It would make sense they stamp the passport since they mail the GC to you after you arrive, and that can take some time to get.

As for citizenship it is 3 years from the date of the PR card not 2. You can file at 2 years 9 months, but cannot take the oath until you pass the 3 year mark.

@ Travel East and West

I guess the reason why I push back on your posts is because they tend to leave out some important pertinent information. I attempt to post factually to assist others. I am not saying I am always right but I do try to post with specific references.

I also respect your opinion. I just know it is not lax here to just walk on in. Its an arduous process. Lots of paperwork, verification, appointments, fees and final visits.

@ AaronLV

Yes I concur, she must have got the stamp you referenced. I was trying to dig it up. Thanks for the point on the 3 year comment posted by Traveling East and West stated, you can apply at the 2 year 9 month mark if you want to become a citizen. The green card conditions are similar with the caveat best not let it go past the 2 year mark or risk her card being pulled and void. Its best to apply right at the 1 year 9 month mark with the fees. If your "Appeal for conditions to be released" and info you sent along with it is accepted you will receive a 1 year extension until the appointment for biometrics is done and the interview is complete.

JAFO,

It was a long time ago and the details about green cards and citizenship may have changed for example if you are in the military the requirements are easier I believe even now.

But as for being easy to get a "wife" visa that allows working on day one of entry to the USA it was easy and I don't think I left out much as there was not much to it. a few forms, fees a medical test and that's about it. Often no interview is needed.

I believe you that the experience was more difficult for you and your wife but not for my wife and myself and everyone else who has spoken to me about the experience. So with all do respect please keep your comments to your own experience and not about others.

I don't remember the cost or timing of citizenship but I do remember it was very easy - show you can speak English and have a basic understanding of US history. actually like the timing of citizenship there are a number of variables and as I recall in certain situations such as the elderly they will waive the language requirement- not sure about the history requirement.

Immigration is so easygoing that while they will ask you to attend a group citizenship ceremony at a later date if you need to leave the US early they will give you a citizen ceremony right away by yourself.

Compare and contrast to the requirements of an American to get Thai citizenship - case closed.

There certainly may be countries that are easier to navigate paperwork in but I don't know of any.

Travel East and West,

Firstly I absolutely refute America is a relaxed country. It simply is not anymore. With that said I will say that the process is easy to navigate and acquire all the required documents to bring your spouse. The US Gov Immigration site is easy to use it just takes time and money. Now the spouse cannot just land here and go to work as you are leading people to believe. I have done this process for my wife and have met many others that have. She can enter the country as your wife but until she has all the proper information in the system and in hand she cannot work(legally). Along with bringing my wife here to the states I have brought many Thai nationals over to the US to train on manufacturing processes and know the H1/2 Visa process well.

Now I absolutely agree with you, you do not need an attorney to do this its a waste of money. I also agree you can start much of the process in Thailand. But a VISA stamp in a passport is nothing more than a VISA stamp to be here(unless she has an H1/2). She has quite a few things to complete here prior to launching off into the wild west.

JAFO,

I repeat:

3) Immigration stamped my wife's passport as eligible to work the moment she received her immigration entry stamp.

Please read carefully I did not say that the VIsa was what made working allowed I said the immigration stamp (at the airport)

4) SS cards are easy to get at the same time as your visa - so your comments about needing a SS card are a non issue. Even if you forget to apply for a SS card before going to the US it only takes a few minutes to apply. Having a SS number or TIN for noncitizens does not allow you to work - it is your legal immigration status.

Again a SS card is a non issue - why wouldn't you get it at the same time as the marriage visa? So your visa and SS number are in the system before you arrive in America. Immigration reviews at the airport upon arrival and stamps your passport as eligible to work.

As for America being a relaxed country you are entitled to your personal opinion which I respect - for me tax returns visas etc are simple as they are in English and that is all I need. For a complex tax return you have a CPA prepare the return.

In summary I am 100% certain that what I described is what my wife experienced - end of story - has the rules changed maybe I don't know...

A "green card" visa was simple a few forms, medical test and a fee - done - citizenship as soon as 2 years later contrast that with Thailand and other countries... it is like night and day - America is very relaxed about this subject. How much easier can it get?

10k deposit is all that's needed usually.

Land office survey can be done in 5 days if you pay them extra.

Contracts mean nothing in Thailand, very risky to pay this much.

I would walk away, probably something wrong with the land or title, and they are hoping for 15% free money.

Or somebody setting foreigner up for a scam. (gf/wife and seller agree a 50/50 split, etc.)

Nobody else will buy without the survey.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Some land offices such as the one you are thinking of are probably not so busy but everywhere we have bought it is a month to 6 weeks for a survey with no possibility of anything quicker.

The fast surveys are normally after hours and not official so not worth much.

You can always pay to queue jump.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/777857-bribe-checks-on-land-offices-in-thailand/

Anything is possible anywhere but not in our experience - the unofficial surveys can be done quickly but not the official ones as there is a schedule made day by day.

The only valid reason I can see for paying more than a token deposit of a couple of thousand Baht would be if the property is such a bargain that potential buyers are beating each other to death with big sticks on the doorstep to snap it up.

And how likely is that in Thailand?

In this case the value is about correct for the price, but the location is very valuable to us for a variety of reasons and it could take 6 months to a year to find similar land.

There is no website listing or even a sign for this property.

If there was, there may be a number of interested buyers to be concerned about - no big sticks though...

This sounds very unlikely in Thailand. Owners here are usually out to get every last possible satang for their property, and you don't do that by keeping the sale secret.

It may be unlikely but the same situation happened to us in that we bought a property that had been up for sale before but was no longer advertised by the owners. Relatives of ours knew this and when my wife and I started looking around for this type of property, they asked the owners if they still wanted to sell the land. They did and we put a down payment through our relatives since we live in the US and wouldn't be in Thailand for 3 months. We had until the end of 3 months to make the final payment at the land office which we did. On the way to the land office, the owners said that since our deposit someone else offered 250,000 baht per rai more. But since we had an agreement we ended up with the property.

Actually, it is very likely in Thailand the last 3 properties we bought were not advertised - example one in town house was empty for years researching through a bank we found the owner and bought the property.

The next property was a rice farm there was a sign that had fallen down into a ditch and was covered with a bush - we saw and then bought the land.

This land has no sign or listing but a person in the village found the owner for us.

Interestingly a lot of rich Thais buy land and hold it for years but will sell for the right price.

It could be stolen by bank employees but very, very low chance.

Best method of protection is to open an account without an ATM card and with ZERO involvement of any Thai g/f, wife or partner you may have.

If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers.

The best alternative is the 65,000 Baht a month option via affidavit from the U.S. Embassy.

Last year I forgot to keep money in a Thai bank just before my extension and the required amount was around 40,000 per month.

I am American has something changed to require 65,000 this year for a visa extension? Or is that amount for your work permit?

@OP,

Couple of comments.

The US does not honor your Thai marriage. So you coming over with her and being married in Thailand means very little. You need to complete the process in the US. It makes EVERYTHING way easier.

TravelerEastWest stated she can immediately come and work in the US. That is not true. She cannot. She does not have a SSN and greencard in hand and both are absolutely required to work legally(I used the term "legally")

As for tax purposes. You cannot claim your wife or child until they have a SSN. You need to apply for all of that once you have immigrated here. That is part of the naturalization process. While the US is noted for just giving out money, they are not going to blatantly just allow people to claim dependents on your tax return with out some sort of number. If they did expats would claim they have a family of 20. This is why my wife and I married here in the states and did not in Thailand. It had no benefits whatsoever to get married in Thailand. Eventually when we move back we will do a Thai wedding to appease the Thai family side.

Best is to apply for a Fiance Visa and start the process. No lawyer needed. Just us the US Gov process.

Best of Luck

JAFO,

Are you saying the laws have changed recently? Quite possible as I posted.

However, unless the laws have changed when you marry in Thailand as I suggested and then get a wife visa to live in Thailand - from the moment she arrives in America and gets her passport stamped by US immigration can work. This is a fact (or at least was a fact)

I base my statement on real life experience.

TravelerEastWest,

"when you marry in Thailand as I suggested and then get a wife visa to live in Thailand"

^Not sure what you are saying above

She cannot work in the US(legally) without a TIN (Tax ID number). Having her Thai passport stamped at customs means little for employment. All companies now require an i9 form be filled out with copies of her Greencard, SSN or H2 Work visa permit for which is proof of residency and or citizenship. These go hand in hand with a W4 on her first day of work. Now if she is a citizen of the US she would already have a TIN as it is part of acquiring a US Passport and becoming a citizen.

JAFO<

I am certain you and others mean well but all these visa and tax issues are very easy to work through typically without a lawyer and while overseas.

America is a relaxed country.

1) Marriages that are registered Thailand are 100% valid in the US. Note registered does not mean a monk wedding it means registering with the Thai government - only a few minutes and a low fee perhaps 500 baht - worth it for the colorful certificate alone.

2) Customs has nothing to do with the ability to work

3) Immigration stamped my wife's passport as eligible to work the moment she received her immigration entry stamp.

4) SS cards are easy to get at the same time as your visa - so your comments about needing a SS card are a non issue. Even if you forget to apply for a SS card before going to the US it only takes a few minutes to apply. Having a SS number or TIN for noncitizens does not allow you to work - it is your legal immigration status.

From the SS website:

@OP,

Couple of comments.

The US does not honor your Thai marriage. So you coming over with her and being married in Thailand means very little. You need to complete the process in the US. It makes EVERYTHING way easier.

TravelerEastWest stated she can immediately come and work in the US. That is not true. She cannot. She does not have a SSN and greencard in hand and both are absolutely required to work legally(I used the term "legally")

As for tax purposes. You cannot claim your wife or child until they have a SSN. You need to apply for all of that once you have immigrated here. That is part of the naturalization process. While the US is noted for just giving out money, they are not going to blatantly just allow people to claim dependents on your tax return with out some sort of number. If they did expats would claim they have a family of 20. This is why my wife and I married here in the states and did not in Thailand. It had no benefits whatsoever to get married in Thailand. Eventually when we move back we will do a Thai wedding to appease the Thai family side.

Best is to apply for a Fiance Visa and start the process. No lawyer needed. Just us the US Gov process.

Best of Luck

JAFO,

Are you saying the laws have changed recently? Quite possible as I posted.

However, unless the laws have changed when you marry in Thailand as I suggested and then get a wife visa to live in Thailand - from the moment she arrives in America and gets her passport stamped by US immigration can work. This is a fact (or at least was a fact)

I base my statement on real life experience.

I am wondering do such things as 3rd party accounts exist for safely transferring money and land titles in Thailand?

​In the end we did find a bank - I think it was K bank that does have an escrow account for houses from some sellers but not for land transactions like ours.

The seller ended up being very friendly and the deposit was not needed and all is going smoothly.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

If they run away with your deposit your only remedy is to go to court; if they have no money then you won't get any money back.

I would normally suggest just going together to the land office and exchanging; no contract, no deposit.

If however, you're expecting them to wait whilst you gather funds etc then you have to agree a deposit/compromise based on your view of the people concerned.

They have lots of money.

We are expected to wait for the survey which we always without exception require.

The challenge is that the land could easily be sold for a higher price by the time the survey is done.

Who has asked for the land survey and why?

I have paid 50% in the past, but that was because I wanted time to close.

Problem is that the more you pay, the harder it becomes to walk if things go south. You'll have to assess the risk yourself, and/or bargain a better deal, or just pay it to secure it if it is a screaming deal.

We asked for the survey.

Your comments make sense.

We always pay cash - no loans - so we can close at any time.

In the end we spent some time talking and the buyer waived the deposit and we agreed to 50% of the transfer costs.

Make the deposit payment as a crossed cheque, and get the seller to collect it from your lawyer after signing the sales and purchase agreement, and handling the land title deed to your lawyer for safe keeping.

This would prevent the seller to sell it to a higher offer during the waiting period.

Thank you for your suggestion - yours is the first real idea so far.

The seller is not close by and very wealthy so would not consider but thank you.

The only valid reason I can see for paying more than a token deposit of a couple of thousand Baht would be if the property is such a bargain that potential buyers are beating each other to death with big sticks on the doorstep to snap it up.

And how likely is that in Thailand?

In this case the value is about correct for the price, but the location is very valuable to us for a variety of reasons and it could take 6 months to a year to find similar land.

There is no website listing or even a sign for this property.

If there was, there may be a number of interested buyers to be concerned about - no big sticks though...

10k deposit is all that's needed usually.

Land office survey can be done in 5 days if you pay them extra.

Contracts mean nothing in Thailand, very risky to pay this much.

I would walk away, probably something wrong with the land or title, and they are hoping for 15% free money.

Or somebody setting foreigner up for a scam. (gf/wife and seller agree a 50/50 split, etc.)

Nobody else will buy without the survey.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Some land offices such as the one you are thinking of are probably not so busy but everywhere we have bought it is a month to 6 weeks for a survey with no possibility of anything quicker.

The fast surveys are normally after hours and not official so not worth much.

Are you concerned because you fear to lose the money because the due diligence will make you run away from the deal or the seller to run away with your money?

Not sure what you mean by due diligence making us run away. The land value research has already been done and the location is a very good one.

My concern was for someone I have not done business with before possibly changing the price at the last minute and then when I say no - he might keep all the deposit.

I use 3bb 5/1 premier no VOIP problems before I used True lots of problems...

How risky is a 15% deposit for a land purchase? How can the risk be minimized? Note the seller has assets and a contract drawn up by our lawyer would be used.

I am wondering do such things as 3rd party accounts exist for safely transferring money and land titles in Thailand?

The reason for the deposit is a request by a seller so as to hold the land while we are waiting for the official land department survey (around a 6 week wait)