Tejas

It is clear that the "mastermind" of this mess (who currently lives abroad) is intent on provoking the military/police to take massive action.

I wonder if the govt. will seize all (not half) of his money/assets/property left in Thailand to pay for the economic chaos the Reds have caused.

The govt. has done everything in its power to prevent bloodshed.

The Reds are not going to walk away (foolishly thinking they are actually winning).

I do not see a happy ending for the Reds.

I am certain that the govt. will not allow this situation to continue.

GLOBAL WARMING

You are correct, but there is nothing funny about it.

And it will only get hotter in the future.

Something tells me that will not be good for tourism, farming, etc.

Both the Hard Rock Cafe in Siam Square and Duke's Express in the Emporium Shopping Center offer large burgers...

HRC has a couple of 10 oz varieties that go for, I believe, 590 baht++ or so...

Here's a recent photo of their SOB Burger, which comes with a chipotle pepper puree and Jack cheese with guacamole and grilled onions.

Dukes meanwhile offers their Route 66 burger for 210 baht, which is billed as a double 1/4 pound patties burger with cheese, lettuce, onion, tomato and Thousand Island dressing.

Here's what the Route 66 looks like:

Between the two, price aside and just based on taste, I think the Duke's burger is better tasting. I like their ground beef (supposedly Thai French ground sirloin) much better than whatever variety the HRC is using..

If there's any bigger burger offerings out there that anyone would want to eat, please chime in...

Never had a burger at HRC (don't like the look of the hamburger in the picture)

Never have eaten at Garage Burger and Grill (burger looks close to an American burger)

Ate at Dukes last week.....wonderful burger (if I remember it was the Duke Burger or something like that).........onions, big tomato, lettuce, thousand island dressing, mushrooms, bacon, huge ground beef..........great bread.........and nice pickle).

Just looking at the pictures and knowing what Duke's is like, my guess is that Duke's is the place to go for a burger.

My only complaint was the meat (although tasty) was too dry.......needs more fat content.............it seems to be very lean (OK that means healthy but the last thing I want is a healthy hamburger).

Thai food (what you find outside of the fancy restaurants that cater to tourists) is one step away from horrible.

Chinese food is 1 million times better and far more interesting (Thai food is almost totally boring to me).

On an international food scale, 100 top and 1 bottom, I would put Thai food at about 5 and Chinese food at 95.

I concur, but I am talking about Singapore, Hongkong, San Francisco type Chinese food as i have never visited mainland China.

We actually agree? A miracle has happened!

I have lived for several years in China--both north and south.

The southern food, to me, is better than the northern food.

I love American-style Chinese food...........so I like both real Chinese food and American style.

Both are much better than Thai food...........Chinese food is comprised of far more dishes, flavors, etc.

I just had a big laugh when one poster used the word "limitless" to describe Thai food

Thailand has the most narrow, boring food culture I have ever experienced..........maybe Cambodian food is worse.

The two dishes many Westerners like (sweet and sour this and that/pad preo wan; chicken and cashew nuts/gai pad met mamuang) are distorted (not good) versions of two wonderful Chinese dishes.

I feel sorry for Thais..........they have no idea what they are missing in terms of excellent food.

I am still waiting for one person to open an American style Chinese food place in Thailand.......they will make huge money.

I would like thailand more if its national dish was Italian food.

Me too

Thai food (what you find outside of the fancy restaurants that cater to tourists) is one step away from horrible.

Chinese food is 1 million times better and far more interesting (Thai food is almost totally boring to me).

On an international food scale, 100 top and 1 bottom, I would put Thai food at about 5 and Chinese food at 95.

People flock to Thailand for a reason..

This thread is not about Thailand. It is for people who no longer have Rose-colored glasses on and are looking for an alternative to Thailand.

We don't care about your opinions about Thailand.....get it?

I could use "polite" Texas talk to tell you what I think about the people who keep trying to hijack this thread............but I will refrain from doing that.

Once again (for the 50th time?), back on topic:

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA. More: I corresponded with a couple a few years ago who just moved to Uruguay. Met them on Lonely Planet. They said they got a place inland and north of Montevideo quite cheap. Prices are quite a bit higher than Argentina. Veggies are not part of the main diet...except for a garden salad...We drove from MV to almost the border with Brazil. Roads were great. MOre: Have been checking into Uruguay and corresponding with an immigration attorney. So this info should be reasonably accurate. To retire there, you must show a monthly income of $500USD a month. Pass an interpol check for police clearance. Pass a medical (sounds similar to LOS). But don't think you can live on $5oo a month. You can apply for permanent residency with the right legalized paperwork. i.e. Birth certificate, marriage license, +the above. The Cedula (permanent residency) takes about a year but they issue a temporary one usually within a week. Once you have been a permanent resident for 3yrs for a couple, 5 yrs for single =, you can apply for an Uruguayan passport. It is good for 5 years and renewable same as a local.

You can own property and buy houses etc, no problem. The cost of property is much like LOS some very expensive areas, like Punta De Este and some very inexpensive like inland property. It is a meat and potato diet much like Argentina and some of the best beef in the world. The people are friendly and mostly originating in Europe. The down side is the service is consistently terrible and to accomplish anything is very time consuming. They have a 23% VAT on most things so anything made out side of the country is very expensive and much of it is junk from China. But if you move there and get a cedula you can ship your household goods duty free as long as they are at least a year old. You cannot include a car in that. You need to learn Spanish but it is a piece of cake compared to Thai. The quality of work sucks. People bitch a lot about the drivers. But petro and cars are expensive so somewhat limited. Once you get your cedula it is done for three years then must be renewed same as locals. You can travel in most of South and Central America using your cedula rather than a passport.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

Maybe George and Co are getting worried what to do with the Newsclipping section once the Reds leave town?

"Congratulations on a job well done."

I have one question, why do I see so many times police just wearing a white t-shirt with no emblems, badges etc printed on them whilst carrying a side arm.

I could not imagine too many police in my country walking around with a side arm and not wearing a uniform to identify them.

I appreciate there are always plain clothes police around in every country, but these are simply uniform police, regular issue pants etc, but just with a t-shirt on, how are you supposed to know what is real and what is not when someone stops you and demand money from you.

He looks a lot like a crazy real estate hound that lives (or perhaps used to live) on Soi 7 in Jomtien.

Maybe he lost it all and now has a new profession.

You guys missed Naams highlights, the 800,000 doesn't have to stay in the bank you can spend it down and then charge it back up 3 months prior to extension after the first extension only two months needed for first.

It still looks like Thailand comes in first after reading the negatives of other hotspots.

Well.........that was a long diversion. This thread is not about Thailand.

Back on topic:

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA. More: I corresponded with a couple a few years ago who just moved to Uruguay. Met them on Lonely Planet. They said they got a place inland and north of Montevideo quite cheap. Prices are quite a bit higher than Argentina. Veggies are not part of the main diet...except for a garden salad...We drove from MV to almost the border with Brazil. Roads were great. MOre: Have been checking into Uruguay and corresponding with an immigration attorney. So this info should be reasonably accurate. To retire there, you must show a monthly income of $500USD a month. Pass an interpol check for police clearance. Pass a medical (sounds similar to LOS). But don't think you can live on $5oo a month. You can apply for permanent residency with the right legalized paperwork. i.e. Birth certificate, marriage license, +the above. The Cedula (permanent residency) takes about a year but they issue a temporary one usually within a week. Once you have been a permanent resident for 3yrs for a couple, 5 yrs for single =, you can apply for an Uruguayan passport. It is good for 5 years and renewable same as a local.

You can own property and buy houses etc, no problem. The cost of property is much like LOS some very expensive areas, like Punta De Este and some very inexpensive like inland property. It is a meat and potato diet much like Argentina and some of the best beef in the world. The people are friendly and mostly originating in Europe. The down side is the service is consistently terrible and to accomplish anything is very time consuming. They have a 23% VAT on most things so anything made out side of the country is very expensive and much of it is junk from China. But if you move there and get a cedula you can ship your household goods duty free as long as they are at least a year old. You cannot include a car in that. You need to learn Spanish but it is a piece of cake compared to Thai. The quality of work sucks. People bitch a lot about the drivers. But petro and cars are expensive so somewhat limited. Once you get your cedula it is done for three years then must be renewed same as locals. You can travel in most of South and Central America using your cedula rather than a passport.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

I think virtually all posters are missing an important point.

You are assuming there is media freedom.

That is a false assumption.

It is false in Thailand.......it is false worldwide.

The global mainstream mass media is dominated by a few corporations.

There job is to maintain the status quo (preventing real change).

They do that by teaching us what we need to know to exploit ourselves.........dividing us.......and diverting out attention away from all of the critical issues.

Wake up! This is old news.

You didn't say to restrict to what's available in Thailand, so for me it's a very large cup of strong Major Dickason's blend Peet's French press brewed coffee. Black.

First..........I have never had a good cup of coffee in Thailand

Second.......the best coffee is what I got back in the USA: dark beans (any kind), freshly ground, and made in a coffee maker (no fancy machine......no whipping cream, etc) w/ coffee mate added and a bit of sugar.

I like strong coffee....with a great smell.

Having said that, virtually any roadside diner in the USA serves better coffee than you can get in Thailand :D

I guess we all missed it if you are planning on retireing in Thailand on $1000-$1800 a month unless you have the 800,000 in the bank you will not qualify. At the exchange rate of 32baht to the dollar you need over $2000 a month

It's going to need the 800k lump sum deposit to start with ($25,000) and to remain untouched for renewal and the $1,000 - 1,800 a month pension for living expenses.

Seriously.........once again..........I am the OP.........I have been updating the summary.........I want another person to do it. Please.......thanks.

I think - on this note that Thai Journalists need to do a better job of "Digging for the truth", rather than taking what all these windbags say at face value. How many times to they have to report the crap that Jatuporn utters, with no fact checking or challenges, etc. Their idea of journalism is to record the quotes and the repeat the quotes. Thats not journalism, that is parroting.

Ah... they dont want truth they want to sell newspapers and advertising nothing else they are all the same world wide

Yep............and it is actually a very old story.

The mainstream media, worldwide, is controlled by a few giant corporations.

Those corporations, worldwide, control the flow information.

The flow of information dictates what we think and guides decision-making.

That flow of teaching people worldwide to exploit themselves (often via a divide and conquer myth).

As stated, this is an old story, but unfortunately few people seem aware of it.

Einstein talked about it.

Ben Bagdikian has done lots of work on it:

The Media Monopoly

by Ben H. Bagdikian

published by Beacon Press, 1997

But nobody seems to be listening

All they want is to entertain and divert us, and teach us how to exploit ourselves and maintain a corrupt status quo.........they also want us focused on problems (virtually never solutions).

There is a reason for that.............but I have said enough already.

Take Note: The T-GRIT list = THAI GIRLFRIEND RELATIONSHIP IMMEDIATE TERMINATION List

1. More than one phone; immediate termination.

2. Walks away from you to answer a phone call; immediate termination.

3. Talks about money, or the lack of it, more than two times on the first date; immediate termination.

4. Doesn’t answer the phone, two times in a row, at a prearranged time; immediate termination.

5. Tattoo; don’t even waste my time.

6. Likes getting drunk too much; immediate termination.

7. Can’t cook and is a lazy cun_t around the apartment; immediate termination.

8. Not interested in getting a real job or studying to improve herself; immediate termination.

9. Likes watching Thai fuc_king TV too much; immediate termination.

10. Family become a pack of parasites; immediate termination.

All of the above with extreme prejudice and they’ve got thirty minutes to pack their shit and get out. So ends the lesson.

And MOST important

11. You met her in a bar - Immediate termination, why did you bother in the first place...

Very good list! You have obviously "been there and done that." (A similar list could be created for Western women..........or women in general).

About the OP.........too many people are giving him a hard time.

He has been here at least 15 years.........tried to do the right thing (my guess is he is a romantic with a value system that is, unfortunately, going out of style).

He likely tried over and over again to change her.............no chance.

And now he has THE COURAGE TO LEAVE.

His warning to all of us who choose to stay is not so off target..........look around you.

I know lots of expats who have left Thailand already--some rich, some poor, some in between.

More will follow them..........especially as other places become increasingly attractive.

I have seen nothing over the past ten years that informs me that things are going to get better........just the opposite.

Yes, that is my opinion and others will disagree.

Having read most of the post on this thread it still looks like Thailand is still on top. When you start breaking down the so called easy visa rules of other countries not so easy, high crime rates, bad food, corruption, and weather Thailand not so bad after all except in the minds of some.

In the end no place is perfect there will be problems and issues were ever you go.

IMHO, I would say Uruguay is on top..........I am now fascinated by the place.

By the way, I am tired of doing the summary.

I am the OP. I have been updating over and over again (I think very useful but.........getting tired doing it).

Will another person please volunteer to take over. Thanks.

The footage of soldiers firing rifles and BTS victims being taken to the hospital are taken seriously.

Definitely, this is a very serious situation. Unfortunately, it's at the point now where the red shirts CAN NOT win at any cost. If the red shirts win, judging from their previous actions, Thailand will definitely not be more democratic, as they've proven there in this for power, not democracy. They are constantly infringing on basic civil liberties, squelsh opposing view points (Khon Kaen airport, for one example), and so on. These aren't people who will be happy with free and fair elections, especially if the vote goes against them.

Really though, bring in the US military. Let PHYOPS (sp) do their job, and after a week the majority of the peaceful protesters should be gone (women, children, etc.). Then it's just the hardcore guys left over. Round them up, and arrest them military style. Then have military stationed in every major city, ready to quelsh any uprising that happens.

I think everyone, including Abhisit, understand the red shirts do have legitimate grievances, which need to be addressed. Maybe I'm wrong, but from where I sit, it appears the current government has realized this from the beginning, and has worked to better the lives of the NE Thailand folk. Problem is, although quite a few social programs are in place (and have remained in place under Abhisit), it's going to be probably another 10 years before the needed economy, infrastructure, and social programs are in place to the point where everyone is happy. However, the red shirts (peaceful ones) want everything yesterday, and it's simply not going to happen. Then the leaders just want power.

Part of what you wrote made me think of the false optimism and unreasonable expectations instilled in the masses between 2000 - 2007.

I think this led to massive frustration on part of many Thais, especially the young who now know that their dreams are only dreams.

Of course, part of this rests with the hyper-nationalism that was brought to the surface during this same time period.

You can trace it to the flow of information. That flow implanted false ideas, thoughts, expectations.

And it resulted in widespread ANGER. The masses wanted an enemy. Those in power constructed two enemies: Red enemy if you are Yellow; Yellow enemy if you are Red.

That construct was only designed to divide the public and divert their attention away from the source of Thailand's problems.

Yes, all of that sounds like psycho-babble.

But at the root of everything we do is a set of ideas about the world, and those ideas are implanted by those who control the flow of information.

What Thailand needs, IMHO, is a charismatic leader who will tell the public the truth, bring both Reds and Yellows (and all other colors) together.

That is possible, but anything is possible under the right circumstances.

A major problem is the flow of information is being guided by a maniac who is currently living outside of Thailand--a maniac who cares nothing about Thailand or the Thai people (again, IMHO).

That does not sound completely unreasonable to me. Who wants tatted drunken low lifes in his condo. If they are this particular who they rent to, or who they allow to live in the building, staying there will probably be a more pleasant experience. Let's face it, there are many farangs in Pattaya I would not want to live next to.

And many of the worst ones have $$$$$$$$$$$$

But I get your point.

You really make Uruguay look like a very attractive alternative to Thailand. The US$500 per month should make a lot of low income pensioners happy. Uruguay also has four seasons..........some of us are sick and tired of HOT, HOT, HOT.

MODERATOR, PLEASE, IF YOU CAN, DELETE ALL POST PRIOR TO THIS ONE EXCEPT POST # 140 AND THE ORIGINAL POST. I HAVE SUMMARIZED EVERYTHING TO THIS POINT. I DON'T THINK OTHER POSTERS WILL MIND AND IT WILL SAVE SPACE.

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA. More: I corresponded with a couple a few years ago who just moved to Uruguay. Met them on Lonely Planet. They said they got a place inland and north of Montevideo quite cheap. Prices are quite a bit higher than Argentina. Veggies are not part of the main diet...except for a garden salad...We drove from MV to almost the border with Brazil. Roads were great. MOre: Have been checking into Uruguay and corresponding with an immigration attorney. So this info should be reasonably accurate. To retire there, you must show a monthly income of $500USD a month. Pass an interpol check for police clearance. Pass a medical (sounds similar to LOS). But don't think you can live on $5oo a month. You can apply for permanent residency with the right legalized paperwork. i.e. Birth certificate, marriage license, +the above. The Cedula (permanent residency) takes about a year but they issue a temporary one usually within a week. Once you have been a permanent resident for 3yrs for a couple, 5 yrs for single =, you can apply for an Uruguayan passport. It is good for 5 years and renewable same as a local.

You can own property and buy houses etc, no problem. The cost of property is much like LOS some very expensive areas, like Punta De Este and some very inexpensive like inland property. It is a meat and potato diet much like Argentina and some of the best beef in the world. The people are friendly and mostly originating in Europe. The down side is the service is consistently terrible and to accomplish anything is very time consuming. They have a 23% VAT on most things so anything made out side of the country is very expensive and much of it is junk from China. But if you move there and get a cedula you can ship your household goods duty free as long as they are at least a year old. You cannot include a car in that. You need to learn Spanish but it is a piece of cake compared to Thai. The quality of work sucks. People bitch a lot about the drivers. But petro and cars are expensive so somewhat limited. Once you get your cedula it is done for three years then must be renewed same as locals. You can travel in most of South and Central America using your cedula rather than a passport.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

Geez! I hope the wheels don't full off too quickly...I'll need about a month to finalise my affairs here before I 'escape' the impending civil war.

Now, that's where planning comes in. I can be packed and on the road 10 minutes after the call comes through.

It is odd, in a way, that so many posters minimize what is happening as if it is not happening.

It is happening........right before all of our eyes.

The "economic decline" has been going on for at least ten years now.

The problem, itself linked to the economic decline and massive income inequality (as well as outside influence), has been growing daily.

I agree with a few posters that said Thailand will not accept outside help because of "pride."

I don't think there is much we can do except wait for the "Thai solution" to materialize.

Thanks for those great pics Craig3365 of Uruguay. I think rich people have discovered it.........I wonder about the cost of living there.

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Uruguay and Argentina): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons. More: I would highly recommend checking out Argentina. BA, Mendoza, Cordoba, Salta, Bariloche, Patagonia...so many fantastic places to see. We spent 2 months there, including 2 weeks in Chile...barely scratched the surface. Of the 70 countries I have visited, Argentina ranks right at the top for me. But I do love steak and wine! You HAVE to speak at least a little Spanish. Mandatory. Can't help you with the rights issues, but I have heard there are some visa problems. May have to do border runs? I would check out the expat websites for more info...also lonelyplanet.com and tripadvisor.com. Many, many Americans rent apartments in BA.

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand. One poster said: Uruguay is easy to travel around and safe. I would avoid many areas of Montevideo at night, but that can be said of pretty much any major city in the world. Colonia is a really cool city. Small, nice beaches (river beaches), cool cafes, but really crowded on weekends due to visitors from BA

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

I heard the Duke's in Bangkok got a really nice review on CNN!

Ever eaten their Philly Cheese Steak? Sandwiches other than their great hamburger?

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Indonesia and China): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem; More: Bali is an amazing island. I have not been to many "South Pacific" islands...but Bali is truly a paradise...as long as you avoid Kuta; another poster: I'd suggest Indonesia; anywhere near the coast on the Western side of Java, or perhaps Lombok. They do have a retirement visa program plus alternatives if you have a local contact / wife / sponsor; another poster: In regards to living in Bali, I would suggest the other side of the Island, Lovina is just gorgeous, black volcanic sand & prestine beaches, 5 minutes up the road if you prefer the tropical forest areas with views of the ocean then Kalibukbuk or Kaliasem.. There is an emergancy medical clinic, run by a Western Women.. And for convieniences that you will find in a big town, you have all the services you need from the Old Capital just 7km down the road Singrajah (think thats how you spell it) Lovina has lovely traditional style hotels & resturants & beach Warungs, fresh fruit sellers on the beach & internet warungs.. The beauty is that there is not many tourists here as most stay on the other side of island in Kuta etc.. There is also the Old Capital Airport for travel to connecting flights to Denpesar Airport.. Visa can be tricky, but there are great people to help you out.. Fantastic Expat Community all over the island with their own website forum site, just google it, aslo you can live quiet comfortably for under AU$1000.00 per month..

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion); more from a poster: China gives one Year Visa, multiple Entries when married. Hainan, Sanya is a wonderfull place, Prices, Rent, Food nearly same as LOS.Redwine much cheaper. Good and cheap flight connections. Like the Food :-)

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

Interesting diversions.......now .......what is the subject? Oh yeah.....WHAT WILL PATTAYA BE LIKE IN 2020.

I think several changes will take place:

1) infrastructure problem will worsen.......there will be serious water shortages, electricity problems, waste disposal problems

2) the Gulf of Thailand will become more polluted (no swimming)

3) the coral reefs will be dead (already dying fast from global warming/climate change)

4) beach erosion will be massive and average temperature will rise (consequence of global warming/climate change)

5) crime will increase (certainly will not be considered safe like it was in the past)

6) the cost of living will be out of reach for most expats on a budget (food prices will go way up)

7) the expat community will become increasingly geriatric (already happening) and the govt. will see them as a burden and abrogate the grandfathered in visa rules, making it very difficult for them to remain in Thailand

8) the expat community will suffer from widespread xenophobia

9) the composition of the expat community will shift from Western to Eastern (Middle East, India, China)........Westerners will begin to see other places as better retirement options

10) the quality of life will decline substantially as a result of the above changes coupled with more people pollution

Hope I did not make a mistake with the update below..........think Do Son in northern Vietnam is the place "similar to" Pattaya? Need feedback.

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Vietnam and Malaysia): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great. More on Malaysia: Cameron Highlands in Malaysia?" most beautiful area to live but unfortunately extremely poor infrastructure (think it is cool there).

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies. More: Dalat in Vietnam is at a higher altitude. No much to do there, though. And for sure it gets cold in the north of Vietnam. I was there a few years ago and canceled a trip up to the mountains as the roads were closed due to snow! Nha Trang is a place quite a few folks like. Some expats there as well. Nice beach. amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all. More: Do Son, near Hai Phong in North Viet Nam (talking about a coastal city similar to Pattaya with cool climate).

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

There are many things in Pattaya - Jomtien that are not good but most of us don't CONSTANTLY obsess about them. Some of us even find many positive things and that's why many of us came here in the first place. In our home countries things were not perfect either. I assure you I am a realist and dont wear rose colored glasses either. I didn't say you were "mentally deranged" or "screwed up" (your quotes) only a trip away from the place may enlighten you why you came here in the first place.

I don't understand why many expats become so upset living here but many probably had similar problems living in their home countries before they left for the greener pastures of Pattaya.

They are upset because things have gotten much worse in Pattaya (and Thailand). It is really that simple. You are trying to complicate the issue with psycho-babble.