Tejas

Tejas you just proved my point! I wasn't assuming you might jump off your balcony because of real estate issues just mental ones. Sometimes people need to get away for a reality check, it can be a good thing.

The local papers as many world wide often concentrate on the negative things - it sells better than good stories. Fox news is a good example.

Oh........sorry, let me put on my rose-colored glasses to reach reality: nothing bad is happening in Pattaya..........all the negative stuff is nothing but lies..........every person who says something negative about the place is mentally deranged or screwed up some way...........it is getting better and better and better.

How was that? Did that make you feel good?

Sorry to interject my opinion at this point.

I just want to say "he is looking at the big picture."

That is why massive force has not yet been used to remove the Reds.

In a clever move, the Reds in Bangkok are now isolated and surrounded by the military/police.

The PM knows that women and children are in the Red camp (hard to believe the "men" would allow them to remain there).

He also knows that a certain unnamed PM living outside of Thailand is trying very hard to cause the military to use full force against the Reds.

And he knows that if the military does that the media will be filled with stories about a mass murder committed by the military to thwart democracy (total BS but that is what he is being set up for).

I am not sure what will happen, but all the military needs to do now is make sure the Reds are surrounded--while preventing food or weapons from getting inside the camp--and play a waiting game.

But the person I am not going to mention desperately wants bloodshed...........

Personally, I think the PM is smart and looking at the entire picture.

He has shown an incredible ability to not do resort to strong violence.

I am sure he is being pressured to do something by powerful men and women who are losing money now in Bangkok.

This is a chess game or sorts.

I agree. Abhisit and Anupong know that there is a fine balance between 'appearing impotent',

and handing Thaksin a coup by propaganda via army massacre of allegedly unarmed civilians.

It is obvious Team Thaksin they are trying every trick they can think of to make this happen.

And there is no coincidence that Thaksin: the future Conquering Hero/ Savior of Thailand,

must be distanced visibly from the chaos they must create to make this chimera a reality.

This distancing is quite intentional and I am suprised Sondhi is buying into it,

unless THAT is ALSO part of a counter game plan. Make them think you buy it,

and make counter plans quietly.

Like Russian Dolls all players are hiding inside other players.

Yes...........I think we are only few in number............this is transparent to me (and you).

If any person should be tried for crimes against humanity, it is the person behind all of this.

He wants bloodshed...........then he will pay to alter the flow of information in his favor (propaganda campaign).

The lies will be told over and over again............eventually the masses will believe what is nothing but a lie.

Then he will be granted immunity...........return to Thailand........get his $$$$$$$$ and power back....

Then Thailand-Titanic will sink into the oblivion because the international community will turn its back on it.

The current PM is smart (it would be a mistake to think otherwise). He sees all of this.

He wants a "peaceful solution." That makes sense if it is possible.

How to do that is what is the critical question the govt. is struggling with at the moment.

He tried to arrest the leaders, but that job was botched. That would have been a good move had it succeeded.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Face it........this is odd to say the least.

I can't think of another country that would not have used major force by now to stop all of this.

This is Thailand.........maybe they can figure out a peaceful solution (and that is the last thing that the instigator of all of this wants).

The current PM is fully aware of this.

Tejas - you are so negative why don't you pursue some of your alternate retirement destination posts. In Pattaya you feel there is only death, destruction, mayhem, gloom and doom according to this and previous posts. And for God's sake stay away from your balcony!

All I am doing is presenting reality. If you don't like it or disagree, fine.

Balcony? Not me........I was smart enough not to get involved in real estate.

No, I do not share the opinion above and have pointed out positive things about the place.

Yes, I have been pursuing and living in alternative destinations.

If you like "doom and gloom," read this:

http://www.pattayaone.net/

Pattaya.......the good one........is DEAD. RIP.

This abhorrent act has finally removed any remaining symapthy I may have had for the DAAD cause.

Me too........totally nuts!

Abhorrent behavior on the part of the Reds.

When you refer to the "old Pattaya" how far back do you mean? I first visited Pattaya in 2003 and since that time I can see the mass changes, some for the better and some for the worse. Do you think we've seen the best of Pattaya?

I still think Pattaya is getting better, I thinks it's growing and will continue to grow, hopefully for the better.

Absolutely.........we have seen the best of Pattaya.........it died around 2000..........and it will never return.

Too bad for those who have no idea what I am talking about.

Too bad for those that do.

Yes............the cost of living for expats (in real inflationary adjusted dollar terms) is much higher today than it was ten to twenty years ago.

This is, obviously, causing a major problem for expats on a budget who are not seeing their pensions rise fast enough to keep pace with inflation.

Part of the problem seems to be the Thai way of doing things: When the economy is in ruins, raise prices.

Part of the problem is the real estate hounds who have raised real estate prices way beyond what they should be. This problem is correcting itself

I would like to know much more about Vietnam....especially the coastal cities. I want to know if there is one place on the ocean that is similar to a small version of Pattaya (condos, nightlife, malls, Western food). I would also like to know more about visa rules and regulations. As an aside, some ThaiVisa posters constantly complain about the intense heat in Thailand (and it will not get any better). They want to know if there are places in Southeast Asia that are cool. I would think northern Vietnam is cool....even cold in the mountains. Dalat? Cool?

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Vietnam and the Philippines): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here. Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper. One poster added: I spent a few weeks in Dumaguette...very nice town right on the ocean. Great diving just offshore! Philippines, why ? cost of living same as T, gals, same as T but speak English. health care, excellent world class in Manila, Ok in Cebu as well.

Favorite places, Dumaguette , Bantanyan Island, Forget that cesspool Angeles.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$? Two posters added: Dalat is a really great place. Maybe a bit too quiet for me, but the fresh veggies are amazing! Vietnam, Ah, 2nd choice. A lot to contend with but beautiful and friendly. Many Many choices. Delat, my favorite. Hochimin, a nightmare, Hanoi, has it all.

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

Sorry to interject my opinion at this point.

I just want to say "he is looking at the big picture."

That is why massive force has not yet been used to remove the Reds.

In a clever move, the Reds in Bangkok are now isolated and surrounded by the military/police.

The PM knows that women and children are in the Red camp (hard to believe the "men" would allow them to remain there).

He also knows that a certain unnamed PM living outside of Thailand is trying very hard to cause the military to use full force against the Reds.

And he knows that if the military does that the media will be filled with stories about a mass murder committed by the military to thwart democracy (total BS but that is what he is being set up for).

I am not sure what will happen, but all the military needs to do now is make sure the Reds are surrounded--while preventing food or weapons from getting inside the camp--and play a waiting game.

But the person I am not going to mention desperately wants bloodshed...........

Personally, I think the PM is smart and looking at the entire picture.

He has shown an incredible ability to not do resort to strong violence.

I am sure he is being pressured to do something by powerful men and women who are losing money now in Bangkok.

This is a chess game or sorts.

Naam, I've been in Cazzoduro and Figastretta, ahhhh, so many memories!

Thanks to both of you You made my day !

Ciao

Nonsense post aside...............

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (more information forthcoming on Vietnam's visa rules): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

I ate at the one in Chiangmai -- pretty good pizza.

Worth a visit.

Yesterday I visited Duke's on the 5th floor of the Emporiam.

Had the "Duke's Hamburger."

Really good.......huge.......but expensive.

The bread was great (odd but very good).....mushrooms, tomato, onions, bacon.....and large ground beef steak on it.

The beef was not like back home in Texas on my grill.......but it was the best I have had in Thailand.

I had a hard time eating all of it. Nice service.

Forgot......the pickle was good too. I highly recommend this place.

Next time I want to try the Philly Cheese Steak.

I think any random sample of respondents would point to one conclusion: the cost of living has increased dramatically in real dollar terms over the past twenty years.

Thanks for sharing your OPINION.

I understand that reality hurts you on a psychological level. There is nothing I can do about it.

In the 4 years I've been here I've hardly noticed any increase in the cost of living.

6000+ Internet forum posts does validate your claim. I suggest you get out more.

I mentioned before I don't drink or spend money on the ladies and now you suggest I get out more in order to increase the cost of my living. No thanks, I'll leave that up to you and your 6000+ drinking buddies.

Rest assured Mr Streetlife, I hold by my original statement i.e. In the 4 years I've been here I've hardly noticed an increase in the cost of MY living. In actual fact, the cost of MY living has probably decreased.

That is a perfect example of how not to estimate whether the cost of living has increased or decreased.

Too many people seem to try to answer that question by resorting to their personal life and conditions.

That process cannot produce an answer that is not heavily biased.

Any social scientist will tell you the same.

You need a long term perspective..........and you need to mentally remove yourself from your own personal conditions...........that is how you might arrive at an answer that is close to reality.

You could also do it with research--both qualitative and quantitative.

I think any random sample of respondents would point to one conclusion: the cost of living has increased dramatically in real dollar terms over the past twenty years.

A common enemy you ask? How about thaivisa members? There seem to be a lot that are negative towards Thailand.

Xenophobia directed at "farangs" has increased dramatically in Thailand, especially over the past ten years.

But the elites have already constructed a "straw man common enemy" in the form of Cambodia.

They play that diversionary card often.

The more important "enemy" is the one that they have constructed within: Reds vs Yellows.

This is very similar to republicans vs democrats in my own country.

The battle lines are false. They are constructed by altering the flow of information which the elites control.

They exist to keep the public divided and focused on each other as the enemy (and not on the real enemy..........the one that exploits both camps).

And it does not matter who wins, whether it is republicans vs democrats in the USA, or as in Thailand, Reds vs Yellows, the masses lose, the status quo is maintained, the elites remain in power.

This is a very old game..........it keeps the "system" on track.

The worst nightmare for the elites is a divided public becoming united and demanding real change..........that rarely happens in the modern world where it is easy to control the flow of information reaching the public.

If the Reds and Yellows ever wake up and join hands in a movement for real change, look out!

I really do not see or am aware of the conditions in Thailand which could justify a 'Civil War'.

Justified or not, the flow of information has been manipulated in such a way as to create a divide between rural (agricultural) and urban (industrial) Thailand.

Myths of what each side is fighting for have been put forth by "leaders."

In the end, no matter who wins, the masses lose.

Why? Because it isn't about democracy or dictators or freedom........it is about MONEY.

It is about who gets the most pieces of Thailand's money pie: rural elites or urban elites.

The poor farmers, the soldiers, the police........all are pawns in a sick and twisted game.

The game is as old as our species.

Chok dee Thailand.

Think what Pattaya was like 10 years ago, has there been that much change? I've been coming to Pattaya for 5 years and I haven't seen much change, apart from the Russians

A five year time span is not enough to see major changes (in most cases).

Ten years provides more clarity.

Twenty to thirty years provides a lot of clarity.

Ten years ago Pattaya-Jomtien was different:

1) far less people (the Russians had not yet invaded)

2) expats were not worried about visa issues (very easy to stay long term back then....do not even remember visa runs);

3) Jomtien beach was covered in large, old-growth shade trees that prevented erosion (now they are gone);

4) the overall economy was better;

5) it was far less expensive (rental/hotel rates were in many cases half of what they are today);

6) crime was not an issue;

7) expats were not jumping off of buildings daily (proxy measure for happiness?);

8) there were no traffic jams (no cues to park);

9) no Reds vs Yellows;

10) most expats felt welcome (xenophobia was all but non-existent)

11) there was no social engineering project to rid Thailand of expats considered "poor quality"

and last but not least,

12) the real estate hounds had not yet discovered Pattaya-Jomtien.

It was a different place..........different atmosphere.........less stressful........less focused on greed and nutty development projects.

I think you could say this about many places around the world. Panama, Costa Rica, Chile, Mexico, etc. Unfortunately, the human population is not know to help things as their numbers increase....heck, the real estate market crashed pretty much world wide...

Edit: wanted to add this could also apply to Honolulu. My parents moved there in 1955. I was born in 1957. I have seen home movies from that time...Waikiki was amazing. I have been back many times in the past 10 years. It is a mess now. Traffic is crazy. Prices out of control. I saw white women walking the street speaking Japanese to the Jap tourists trying to find a customer. Crazy...

Hawaii.......I first visited in the early 70s.......it was beautiful then (still too many people even then but nothing like today).

I remember visiting Hawaii again in the late 80s. I also remember it seemed like I was visiting Japan I think I had trouble finding an English newspaper!

Oh well........many of the negative changes we are seeing today are directly related to population: TOO MANY PEOPLE!

Hawaii (especially Honolulu) and many of the once great places you mentioned, and of course Pattaya-Jomtien, are being ruined by "people pollution."

It is a shame that politicians (and the people that elect them) do not focus on the "population problem" as our number one problem.............followed by the development and deployment of a sustainable energy system.

Instead, as is the case in Pattaya-Jomtien, they want more people pollution..........more, more, more, and more still. Too bad.........I and others remember a less people polluted Pattaya-Jomtien.

Even as early as 1986, I remember a very quiet, beautiful Jomtien Beach with wonderful old-growth trees.....now those old growth trees have all but gone as a result of some idiot (or group of idiots in the govt) who took them all down with a chainsaw back in, I think, 2003.

Because of that stroke of mindless stupidity, the beach is eroding and the much needed shade the trees provided is gone.

Believe me, we are not running out of people, so nobody needs to have any more IMHO of course.

I bet they'll still be working on that stretch of road over the hill to Jomtien.

And there'll still be a water leak running down Soi Nernplubwan.

Edit: Oh, and they'll still be selling condos in the still yet to be started Ocean 1 Tower.

Good one....... :D

The Australian Government has today upped the travel advisory warning level to Thailand, as a rusult of last night's activities, to "reconsider your need to travel". This is for all of Thailand & not just Bangkok! This is just one small step away from the top warning level of "do not travel", which is already in place for Yala, Pattani & Narathiwat.

Irrespective of the rights & wrongs of this, the damage to the Thai economy must be huge and with no end in sight, the country's international credability must be in question.

Even with an immediate solution & cessation of demonstrations etc, the tourism industry in particular is going to take a very very long time to recover.

Do protestors on all sides really know & fully appreciate the current & long term damage they're doing to their own country?!

I am not sure what they think at this point. That assumes something.......

Looking forward, I do believe that after this is all over the plan to bring tourists and expats back will likely involve:

1) raising prices for everything, especially hotel prices

2) implementing even more Draconian visa rules and regulations

Of course, this is precisely the opposite of what they should do.

But TIT.

Whatever will be - will be!

Pattaya will still be here along with the whingers predicting it's imminent demise!!

People who use words like "whingers" are often the ones who are most messed up......they can't or refuse to see reality.

Why? Most likely because they are heavily invested, are losing money due to the economic crises, and/or can't escape from Pattaya.

Their collective dream (e.g., Pattaya-Jomtien will become like Monaco) has become a nightmare they refuse to acknowledge.

So they get upset any time any person states the truth. And they throw insults are those in tune with reality, calling them "whingers."

Pattaya's reality is a bitch: crime has increased dramatically; the quality tourist social engineering project failed; the worst type of farangs are staying and many of the best have left already; the real estate market is crashing (actually a good thing); people pollution is a fact (along with traffic jams and air pollution); the infrastructure is piss poor (city smells like a sewer in many places); local inflation is high; development has spoiled the natural environment............etc., etc.

I agree with your assesment. That's why, your "business plan" should focus on Vietnam, Cambodia or Malaysia. These countries are moving forward, very fast, where as, Thailand, is going backwards, at a faster rate.

I agree..........but I would not include Malaysia because of its population policy.........Vietnam, Cambodia are the places to be. This will be self-evident in 15-20 years.

Time to say to Illegal gatherings" You have * hour to move or you will be removed" thats the standard fair, reasonable way of removing such a gathering. Only in Thailand the security forces and politicians haven't got the determination to uphold law and order. Pathetic State

Yep..........amazing Thailand!

Now the train has been "released" by the Reds.

And some Reds have negotiated (demanded?) that they ride with the train to its destination to make sure it is not going to Bangkok.

What a joke Is this for real?

I don't know any other country in the world that would allow this sort of thing to happen.

This story is confusing - the young lady left the Hotel to go to a convenience store (at 2a.m.) and then can't remember where her Hotel is? Sorry but where did she walk to? I am not saying the story of what happened to her is not true am just confused as to how she could get lost.

You are Japanese..........maybe it is your first time to Thailand.......first to Pattaya........you walk out of your hotel at night down the street and maybe are focusing on the sights and sounds of Pattaya.....it would not be that hard to get confused about where you are, especially if the hotel was not in sight.

It would then make sense to ask for assistance from a "motorcycle taxi driver."

Some people have a terrible sense of direction. Maybe she is one of them.

is simon the one who ran out of money?

a lot different than being ousted by the thai government.

A BUNCH OF RICE FARMERS THROW A TANTRUM AND YOU GUYS THINK THAILAND IS COMMING TO AN END! WHAT GIVES?

Some people have been here for decades, and they understand Thailand is getting worse year after year.

They also see xenophobia increasing around them.

That is "what gives."

Nonsense post aside...............

For some very useful comments see post #140 (too much info. there to update below).

For an interesting country comparison tool, see this link: http://www.prosperity.com/default.aspx

UPDATE from previous posts (see Malaysia): Reminder: We are talking about alternative where you can "live well" on a monthly income of US$1000 - 1800. The focus is on low-middle income pensioners because these are the ones being hurt most by Thailand's crazy retirement system. Pensioners with big money can retire anywhere. To include them would mean to include all countries. Healthcare, retirement visa system, infrastructure are critical for pensioners (need more info. on these items below). Also, it would be nice to get comments about Western type comforts (food, malls, etc).

Cambodia: massive annual GNP growth, looks like Thailand; friendly people; English spoken widely; more expensive than Thailand but some say less expensive than Thailand; don't want to get sick there but close to Thailand so if it is not an emergency situation you can go to Thailand for medical care; infrastructure improving but long way to go); best visa situation in Asia and good Western food in PP and SR and SNVL. SNVL could, eventually, become the next small version of Pattaya after the international airport opens there.....lots of development plans for SNVL. Same water and sunset view as you find in Pattaya, but far fewer people.

Philippines: safe and unsafe areas; beautiful beaches; storm problem; most people speak English; easy visa system; some possible retirement destinations are Boracay, Dumaguete, Panglao Island, Puerto Galera (avoid Manilla); one poster said this: having lived in the Philippines for 7 yrs as an expat......I can add a few comments about the place. Baguio City is one of the most livable areas in the Phil. High elevation summer capitol with moderate temperatures....but is still prone to the many typhoons that aim at the Phil every year. Weather is never boring there. Down south, there are many nice areas (the islands) that have small expat communities. Camiguin, Cebu (outside the city), Dumagetti, Bohol.....7,100 island to choose from. some 'jewels in the China seas, but lots of ruined enviornment and poor and crumbling infrastructure. Friendly people....sometimes too friendly, but always smiling like Thais. Poverty is much more obvious and the local food is swill. most violent crime is confined to the cities. Local transport is basic, but cheap. roads are the worse i've ever seen and road manners are worse than here.

Immigration is much easier than LOS and I think cheaper.

Malaysia: have a retirement program to attract foreigners that makes things a lot easier than it is in Thailand; you can own your own house; Malaysia would be easier for many expats (in terms of language, certain kinds of convenience, etc.) There are many more places than Penang to check out; one poster said this about Malaysia: Malaysia probably won't fall into your 1,000-1,800 criteria. For persons over 50 a deposit of $42,500 and monthly income of $2,850 (about 92,000 baht) is required. If you have a government pension of $2,850/mo or more then the deposit is not required. The official program MM2H (Malaysia My 2nd Home) is not bad if you can afford it. I have watched this program change every couple of months for the last two years - mostly good changes. You can import a car duty free (one time) oh, does not apply to motorcycles - sorry Harley. You can buy any number of homes but price has to be above $75,250 each. One poster just added: A couple of pages ago someone mentioned wanting somewhere cooler in south east Asia - how about Cameron Highlands in Malaysia? MM2H is a very good visa system (if you can afford it). 10 year renewable visa - you only need to go to Immigration every 10 years, slight improvement on 90 days here. The visa can be renewed every 10 years on the same terms that you went in on. I also like the fact that, whilst they ask you take out medical insurance, if you are unable to do so all you need to do is a get refusal letter from an insurance company, and they accept that. You can buy property freehold as a foreigner but currently upwards of RM 500,000 (5 million baht equiv). There are rumours that this might change (downwards). Rental prices are not too bad either outside of KL and Penang island. It's English speaking, the food's great.

Vietnam: long coastline; storm prone; developing rapidly; health care in Hanoi reported to be excellent but not good in hinterland; one poster said "not as friendly" as Thailand; one poster said no set visa policy for retirees (think need more info. here); Retirement visa - I don't think they have one, all retirees are said to be married to VN and get 5 year resident visas (5 year resident visa is a big improvement over Thailand); one poster said: ...will be moving to live in Vietnam in a few months.I would say from my previous visits there that Vietnam certainly fulfils most if not all of the above criteria.The only difficult thing might be to find one city or town that has them all.For instance Saigon has good medical facilities but it's relatively expensive for housing and its not cool or particularly clean.Hanoi has good medical facilities,but it is quite dirty,however for part of the year it's actually cold,it certainly was when we were there in January.I've just come back from a 6 week tour of Vietnam,from Hanoi/Ha Long Bay to Hue/Da Nang/Hoi An/Nha Trang /Saigon and the Mekong Delta inc Phu Quoc island.I've been many times before and am married to a Vietnamese girl,we have a 1 year old boy as well.Out of the main tourist areas it's cheaper than Thailand,certainly housing,food and drink.Unfortunately though the medical facilities out in those places leave a lot to be desired,but then transport in Vietnam is relatively good,and if you live reasonably close to a regional airport,its cheap and easy to fly to Saigon/Hanoi.I wouldn't say English is widely spoken, but in the main tourist areas a fair number speak it.It's a lot easier to learn Vietnamese than Thai,the alphabet is similar to ours, the words are shorter and although it is a tonal language,the version of Vietnamese written today was basically invented by the French last century.The visa situation is easier there(for me anyway).Because I am married to a Vietnamese,I have a 5 year visa EXEMPTION,it's not a visa,just a sticker in my passport saying I don't need a visa.The only thing is that I can't stay in Vietnam more than 90 days at a time,so I will have to leave every 90 days(very similar to the Non O here).It may well be that I can get some sort of residence visa when I am there,I will have to find out,or maybe someone there knows the answer to that?). more on visas by one poster: Update on the visa situation for VN. I visited the immigration office in Ha Noi last week and was told by the lady that says she issues residence visas that there is no such thing as a retirement visa for VN, you can only get a 6 month visa uless you are there for work or an investor. Also being married or dependent only entitles you to a 6 month visa that can be renewed continually. If you have a visa exemption that entitles you to a 3 month stay this can be renewed continually at a cost of $10 per renewal. This is what the Immigration Officer TOLD me and did not show any written regulations to support this. I know that one TV member has managed to get a 1 year visa after completion of his work in VN but guess that may have been with the help of some $$?

Indonesia: visa system is not that easy; Bali in expensive in some areas and not so expensive in others; Lombok has been mentioned as one other possibility; certainly Indonesia has thousands of islands; earthquake problem

Lao PDR: Unsure if cheaper than Thailand; can be pleasant according to one poster; one poster added this about food: lovely breads and bakeries widely available and delicious

China: Kunming is the City of Eternal Spring (sounds like cool weather); China is huge and difficult to generalize about; Zhuhai across from Macau is a popular retirement destination (nice city in my opinion). NEED RETIREMENT VISA POLICY

Panama: Panama sensed an opportunity and developed a retiree incentive program that International Living calls the world's best. One retirement opt is based on showing a pension (or social security) of only 500 USD plus 100 USD per dependent (somebody check for accuracy). Retirees get discounts on travel, entertainment, shopping, services. But like Costa Rica so many have moved in that the country is having growing pains. Like Thailand most of the country is very hot and humid. The highland town of Boquette has a very nice climate and has been heavily promoted by International Living. And it's First World prices reflect that.

Argentina: Argentina became the single best bargain in Latin America, possibly the world, after their monetary crisis of 2002. Literally overnight after their peso was devalued costs were 75% less in American Dollars. Unfortunately while the exchange rate has hovered around 3.8 Pesos to the Dollar rampant inflation has brought costs back up close to where they were pre-crisis. However outside of Buenos Aires there are many choices with a good quality of life that are reasonably priced. And as one of the world's largest countries there's climate and scenery that suits about anyone. They have some nice beach towns but winter weather on the coast is pretty raw. Some cities popular with expats are Mendoza, Bariloche, Salta, and Cordoba. But Buenos Aires is the big draw for foreigners, world class city if you are an urbanite; great beef. A reminder about Argentina, there is no bank account method to qualify, you must have a permanent income, or no go for the retirement visa (maybe too expensive for the pensioners in question.....not sure); Many expats make border runs on tourist cards for many years. Argentina has no problem with that. Google Buenos Aires Expats Forum for tons of info. Many Argentines speak English. The Buenos Aires Herald is an excellent newspaper in English. Still, once there you'd want to take classes and get up to speed. I think the inflation issue is serious, but it may lead to another crisis. Might be worth moving there for a few years if the Peso is devalued again. Can always plan your next move while enjoying the best steaks in the world at near giveaway prices! According to one poster who has been there, there are reports of Argentina hassling people doing too many tourist card runs, it isn't predictable; Living there on tourists cards means you won't get a DNI number, you can never settle there very well without one (bank accounts, utilities, perhaps even health insurance (not sure)), in any case it is an important thing for many aspects of living there and a passport number doesn't replace it; Another great thing, overstays are not criminalized. People deal with it by flying out and paying a small fine, then returning and starting all over again; Expats mostly learn Spanish, yes it is easier than Thai, but there are functional reasons. For example, go the websites to do things there (businesses, etc.) and it is all Spanish, no translations. Unlike Thailand where English has almost become a semi-official second language. That definitely is not the case in Argentina. Of course there is some English media, and an English expat forum; Yes the peso can change, and the country has a recent history of economic volatility; If you do have a verifiable retirement income stream, the amount required is quite low, probably all US social security recipients can qualify, but all of the required money must be imported into a bank there annually; It certainly is a great place to visit, best steaks and excellent wine, very interesting people (very high per capita rates of both psychotherapy and cosmetic surgery! Argentina, between rising costs and hassles, isn't worth it (according to one poster). The hassles are endless red tape and systemic corruption. I've read many times that get away from the biggest cities and the people are some of the most genuinely friendly in the world. If the most beautiful women in the world is what you are after then Argentina is definitely in the running. Go to Google Images, search Argentinian babe, holy Toledo! Some other things about Argentina...97% European heritage. 50% Italian, 30% Spanish, substantial English, Irish, French, German, Welsh and other minorities. Argentines like to camp, campgrounds in most towns. You'll find cineplexes in most small cities and large cities have multiple choices. Most American movies play there, usually in English with Spanish subtitles unless childrens' movie. Actually American owned cineplexes are in most of Latin America now, especially Cinemark. Argentina is slightly smaller than India but only has about 44 million people. It's one of the few countries that produces everything it needs but is so poorly managed it struggles financially. The gov't confiscated the national retirement fund last year to pay for it's socialist programs. Buenos Aires has far and away the best bookstores in Latin America. It's a very literate population. COOL WEATHER: Bariloche es AWESOME! This place really does have it all. It is absolutely beautiful, the Andes provide an almost unbelievable backdrop for this mid-size ski town. Bariloche sits about 10-15 km from Cerro Catedral, which is actually the most prominent ski area in South America; has change of seasons

Chile: Chile is easily one of the most corruption free and stable countries in the Americas, and also one of the most amicable to foreigners looking to relocate or retire.; Puerto Monte in the south has is a European-like town overlooking the ocean and Andes Mountains; has change of seasons

Costa Rica: sort of the Thailand of Latin America. It was the top expat location but so many foreigners moved in that the government ended most of the great retiree incentives it offered. Crime and costs have soared. Still, many expats there but also many moved out, especially to Panama; Pensionado required income USD 1000/mo, and not so good - rentista USD 2500/mo--must show money was converted to colons; getting expensive; housing costs have doubled in top areas; now required to join country social security; armed robbery and carjacking now a daily event; Costa Rica is nice but the benefits are going down at a rapid rate

Mexico: gorgeous coastline overlooking Pacific; great food; one poster added the following: Favorite place is San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico. Go to Google Images to see pictures. City is about 140,000, has multiplex playing American movies in English, best English language bookstore in Mexico, Walmart and Sam's club are opening stores there, has beautiful pedestrian only streets in the center, can be comfortable there on $700 a month, live very well on $1200. Unlike northern Mexico these days, San Cristobal is safe, with much to see and do. Single biggest drawback is wet season with alot of rain. But at 7000' overall it's mild most of the time, but nights can get chilly.

Colombia: gone a long way towards fixing it's problems. Terrorist groups have been marginalized to remote areas and drug cartels are no longer threatening stability. Bogota's north side looks like a prosperous American city. Security is everywhere, people go out there. The city that's attracting alot of expats is Medellin. It has a year'round spring like climate and is very clean; Colombia officially requires a substantial pension to live there, but doesn't enforce it. Expats are living comfortably there in smaller cities for much less than $1000 a month. Definitely a place you need Spanish though to truly enjoy it. I think the Group is called Colombia_Expats, not certain.

Chile: most expensive country in Latin America as well as it's most prosperous with excellent infrastructure; stunning views of the ocean and mountains; can get very cold is the south; lots of Europeans have already retired there in so-called "little Switzerland" areas

Ecuador: good retirement visa system; one city in particular, Cuenca, that is very beautiful, mild but cool climate, all the amenities; does have crime issues. Somebody mentioned Esmeraldes which is the most crime ridden area of the country. Cuenca in general is safe, using common sense; one poster said: Regarding Ecuador Visa, your best bet should be STUDENT VISA, which 's easy&cheaper and easy to be extended tax free, just start searching a spanish language school now in quito or other small town in ecuador. and obtaining that letter for admission to an Ecuadorian language school; another poster concerned about visas and crime: It is clear their retirement visa is easily obtainable if you have a provable pension of a "certain amount" which I think isn't much. However the other alternative options are very unclear to me. If anyone understands what they mean exactly on how to qualify without a pension, let us know.

http://www.ecuador.org/immigrantvisas.htm Also the dollarization there is attractive to Americans, no exchange rate worries.

I have begun to plan trips there a few times, but every time I do, reading about the horrible crime situation in Quito has put me off; once you arrive in quito, you'll have plenty of time to find the a resonably-priced agent which can arrange your retirement visa package hassel free; another poster: Last I read Ecuador will give permanent residency by either buying real estate worth at least $25,000 or depositing $25k in an Ecuadorean bank. That gives you all the rights of citizens except right to vote or hold office.

Uruguay: Google UruguayLiving.com for an excellent forum. Uruguay has low violent crime but serious property crime. You have to be vigilant to live there. A British couple went out to eat their first day there to take a break from unpacking. Came back 3 hrs later to find everything gone! It's a serious problem there. One place I like is Colonia del Sacramento, possibly the prettiest colonial town in South America and Portugese colonial to boot. Interesting thing is it's about 1.5 hrs by ferry across from Buenos Aires. It's where B.A. expats go to renew their tourist cards. One poster really sees it as a good alternative to Thailand.

Belize: according to one poster, it is the most expensive country in Central America (find hard to believe and would like more information on cost of living) and yet has minimal infrastructure. It's real draw is beach living and it's islands. However crime, especially in Belize City, is very high; great lobsters; scuba diving; Belize pegs it's money 2:1 to the American Dollar. That, along with most items are imported as little is produced locally, keeps things fairly expensive. If you live like a local, living in a simple wood house and eating mostly beans and rice and chicken you can live cheaply. That also means no air conditioning, no car, limited electricity. If you want an American lifestyle you'll pay alot, and still have to do without things like modern supermarkets. There are 2 paved 2 lane highways in the country, one north-south, one east-west.

Turkey: NEW TO THE LIST.......if you live there or have lived there, please gives us some input on the place.

Please add your first hand observations to the list above.........thanks.

exactly - it's the last ditch attempt by the desperate Elite to retain power - it's over - they are doomed

more hysterical heavily biased nonsense - obviousluy, it cuts both ways

Yes..........."cuts both ways."

The tragic reality is that it does not matter which side wins.........the elites will retain power.

This "game" is being played at a high level.......it is a power struggle (i.e., struggle over which elite faction retains majority control over the most MONEY).

In the end, the people lose.

This same political game is being played in every nation-state.

Nothing will change until there is fundamental change at a level most people don't think about: the level of ideas/thoughts that underpin decision-making.

For that to happen the flow of information must change (not happening now).

Chanting "change" over and over again does not lead to change (we just saw that in the USA).

This is all a sick game.......the masses lose.............the elites win.........frustration builds............the game starts over again.

Despressingly there is truth in this... and the answer is? (queue drum roll)

Solution? That is an interesting topic. I don't have the energy to go down that road.......nobody seems to care or listen.

But the solution is stated above: the flow of information must change