You Stupid Backpackers

[Limbo]

They live their lives completely absorbed by their own culture and will not accept the culture of the country they live in.

Exactly, my dear Aussiefella, you got the message.

It is the discussion about the 'multi-cultural' society in a nutshell. Can it exist, must it exist, does it exist?

Is it normal to live for many years in a country and not speak a word of its language? It seems normal for many arabs (specially women) in Europe. And it seems normal for many westerners (specially men) in Thailand.

The Thai government is generous.

In Pattaya older western men are free to spend the inheritage of their children on alcohol and sex.

On the Kao San road the younger generation is free to do what they like best.

But please, honour this generosity by behaving 'normal' outside these enclaves.

As immigrants in Thailand I think we should respect the culture of this country, the norms and values of its people and show politeness in our behaviour.

Many (not all) new western immigrants in Thailand start to behave themselves as many (not all) arab immigrants in Britain.

And the 'not all' are measured by the 'manies'.

[taxexile]

It is as an Arab living for four years in London, proudly declaring that he never shook or will shake hand with a Briton.

in the late seventies and eighties there was an influx of arabs into london, they settled in the area just north of marble arch. the high oil revenues of the gulf states gave them unlimited wealth compared to the average brit. there were soon clubs, restaurants and facilities catering to their every need and they were to be seen strolling around town with bleached blonde girls in fishnet tights,white stiletto heeled shoes,and the other fashion pointers that make it obvious to brits what the girl is about.they lived for months at a time in some of the most expensive hotels in london,bought ferraris and bentleys, and paid the girls well, bought them apartments to live in so that they could come over two or three times a year to live with them. they spent money like water, prices of property rocketed as local took advantage of the wealthy newcomers.

what with the stricter laws back home, and the multitude of available alcoholic and female delights and easy visa laws in the uk, they were in seventh heaven.

the arab culture, being so different from british culture,meant that it was hard for them to fit in, and often the only contact they had with brits was via the club girls and the many shop assistants and lower paid workers who came to realise that servicing the arab market could if they were lucky make them a lot of money. some arabs fell in love, and married, often supporting the girls families.

brits who saw these white sheeted millionaires cavorting around the streets of london with tarty,bleached blonde,fishwife mouthed things, often less than half their age looked on in horror and amazement.

the reputation of the arab in london, although never great to begin with, soon took a huge tumble.

does that remind anybody of anything.

i know that this post has nothing to do with backpackers, but it does make a point i think about what is appropriate behaviour in a foriegn country.

backpackers can be excused their behaviour , they have only been here for ten minutes and will be leaving in half an hour.

they cant be expected to know anything more than basic manners and common decency, but so much inappropriate behaviour comes from those who are long stayers. the sex industry should be zoned. regular thais find it offensive, and that is reflected in the opinions that thais have about farangs here.

[Limbo]

... but so much inappropriate behaviour comes from those who are long stayers. the sex industry should be zoned. regular thais find it offensive, and that is reflected in the opinions that thais have about farangs here.

Thank you Taxexile,

Wellwritten and to the point! I wished I could express myself that well.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Go to Australia, UK, USA and see the ghetos they have created, they being Africans, Arabs and Asians. They live their lives completely absorbed by their own culture and will not accept the culture of the country they live in.

Much like the wandering shoeless Australians in Mae Sai.

[maerim]

the sex industry should be zoned.

It is zoned it's called Thailand.

I don't know of anywhere here where women are not available on a short term basis for money.

In even remote places there are coffee shops not many fat Farangs in there I have noticed or backpackers come to that.

[thedude]

well said limbo and taxexile.

being an asian and an expat, i have had the unusual opportunity to associate closely with both other western expats and at the same time observe westerners through the eyes of thai's, my fellow asians. i have to agree with your observations. many westerner "expats" here are painfully oblivious to the fact that they are living in an artificial, parallel universe, effectively forming a segregated bottom rung in society, and that their experiences in the dingy bars and back alleys in no way reflect the real culture and people of thailand. it is just that there are soo many of them concentrated in certain precincts that they start to imagine their world to be reflective of thailand at large.

most thais that i know from proper families and society don't think highly of the farangs in their midst, but there is an admirable live-and-let-live attitude. the "awe" for the white man is long gone, except perhaps in the smaller villages. while i believe there are many things western that the thai's could learn from (eg good corporate governance, management standards), i am at the same time generally dissappointed at the slow infusion of these standards which i partially attribute to the low quality of western expats found in this country, many of whom i feel are poorly qualified compared to many foreign-educated thais that i have met. lets face it, the best performing corporate execs get posted to Tokyo, Hong Kong and Singapore for their "asian stint" before being pulled back to a higher post back in HQ, Bangkok is hardly on the radar screen for many multinationals. it is no wonder then that many locals in corporate thailand harbour a sense of injustice when they realise the fat packages that their under-performing foreign counterparts are enjoying.

i also agree with your observation that there has been a gradual erosion of respect accorded to the farangs, partially because of the effects of the aforesaid slide in quality, but also because thailand like many other countries has been increasingly exposed to the modern world, and as it advances, the nation's progress and accomplishment lends to greater confidence about their place in the world and the value of their culture.

[Dutchy]

i am at the same time generally dissappointed at the slow infusion of these standards which i partially attribute to the low quality of western expats found in this country, many of whom i feel are poorly qualified compared to many foreign-educated thais that i have met. it is no wonder that many locals in corporate thailand harbour a sense of injustice when they realise the fat packages their foreign counterparts are enjoying.

and that their experiences in the dingy bars and back alleys in no way reflect the real culture and people of thailand. it is just that there are soo many of them concentrated in certain precincts that they start to imagine their world to be reflective of thailand at large.

I must disagree here, Thailand allows these things to exist and prostitution is an core value of Thai society, as well as denying the existence of prostitution. (and chicken flu...etc)

I also disagree with your statement about foreign educated Thais, I know several PhD holders and am very disapointed with their command of the English language, the language they studied in and wrote their dissertation in. You can not compare a Thai with foreign qualifications to a national of that particular country with the same qualifications. And a sense of injustice when they realize that foreigners earn more, we also pay more tax and are discriminated upon at national parks etc. We can not use the national health system, governmnet pension, free education for our children like the Thais, we simply need a lot more than Thais because that's the system the Thais created.

Dutchy

[stroll]

Well put, Dude, I agree.

And Dutch, people get paid for the work they do, not for what they think they need. I also think many farangs are overpaid, and the new work permit rules don't help the issue.

As for the prostitution issue: the same argument again and again, farangs have not invented it, core(?!) value of Thai society blah, blah...

You are talking the same way as the grungy backpackers you so much despise, 'we haven't invented ganja, and heroin is produced in Thailand'.

2 wrongs don't make a right.

[davethailand]

If he is an Arab in London, he wouldn't be shaking hands of Britons, he would be tying to blow them up! They don't intigrate when in other countries, are you walking around asleep or what? Go to Australia, UK, USA and see the ghetos they have created, they being Africans, Arabs and Asians. They live their lives completely absorbed by their own culture and will not accept the culture of the country they live in. You only want to see what you want to.

If he is an Arab in London, he wouldn't be shaking hands of Britons, he would be tying to blow them up!

Ausiefella, no disrespect mate but are you sure about this statement, its crap.

i've grown up and worked for arabs most of my life and although i agree on them not wanting to adapt its unfair to label them like that.

i've got some really nice arab friends and like thai's they're different from you and i, some are nice and some are complete tossers.

worked for several arabs in london and earned loads of money out of em, great.

what about all the aussies in earls court then

[taxexile]

Go to Australia, UK, USA and see the ghetos they have created, they being Africans, Arabs and Asians. They live their lives completely absorbed by their own culture and will not accept the culture of the country they live in.

they being Africans, Arabs and Asians. They live their lives completely absorbed by their own culture

just like 90% of the falangs here, who dont learn more than half a dozen words of thai... usually related to beer and women., who go to western copy pubs and western copy restaurants to eat western food, watch western tv, read western newspapers and books, its what most people do when they leave their own country, they try and recreate it in a new location.

rarely do you see mixed groups of falangs and thais together outside the falang ghettos.....apart from the obvious.....and what are phuket,sukhumvit,pattaya,khao san road if not western ghettos where the thai ways have been all but obliterated.

[maerim]

what about all the aussies in earls court then

What about them?

As far as I know they don't demand and get their own parliament same as the muslims have in Bradford.

The issuing of fatwhas by Aussies backpackers or otherwise on authors is also a bit thin on the ground as of late.

Their clerics if they had them would not I'm sure advocate the killing of white U.K. citizens and then complain they are getting booted out of the country for incitment to murder.

If I had a choice as to Muslims or backpackers give me backpackers clean or otherwise any day of the week.

[Axel]

Living in Thailand and showing the courtesy of politeness should be common sense.

But do not expect me to totally immerse into the local customs and culture, neither do I think my neighbours want this from me.

Limbo said:

As immigrants in Thailand I think we should respect the culture of this country, the norms and values of its people and show politeness in our behaviour.

which is perfectly fine with me except the "immigrant"-part. I am not an immigrant, my visa reflects this, it's a 'non-immigrant' one.

So I will watch, learn, make friends, but will not totally immerse in or adopt the customs and culture.

I will live my own life, do what pleases me and stay here as long as it pleases me, without, of course, bothering others. I will leave when I am no longer needed or when I realize nobody needs me, or when it pleases me. As long as I am here, I will behave the same way as I would when invited to your (or your) house, whereever that is, as your guest.

As for the worldfamous sex-scene, well it is there albeit I would prefer to visit the places my Thai friends go to. Only one problem, too expensive.

Should I be sad, when my Thai neighbours and associates look down at me since I do not buy a new Mercedes or BMW every year? Not really, as I said, I do what pleases me, not what my neighbour expects of me.

[simey]

As much as I love Thailand, probably for the reason that it is so different to the western world, the place does live in the past a little bit. The days of international travel being reserved for the likes of Alan Whicker are long gone, and the restriction on peoples choice of place to live should go with them.

We all understand that countries need to protect themselves and their legal citizens from use and abuse by people from other countries with bad motives, however the with cheap air travel the world is a very small place now and people can and will travel.

It is very xenophobic to regard everyone not Thai as just that - a farang. Despite the faults of the western world most countries do enforce a non-discriminatory policy and that must help integration between cultures. The more Thailand authorities (as opposed to the people themselves) observe a Thai and faramg policy the more they encourage insular attitudes by farangs.

I agree with Axel, we are obliged to be polite and respectful but we are not obliged to behave thai any more than we are allowed to become thai citizens.

[davethailand]

what about all the aussies in earls court then

What about them?

As far as I know they don't demand and get their own parliament same as the muslims have in Bradford.

The issuing of fatwhas by Aussies backpackers or otherwise on authors is also a bit thin on the ground as of late.

Their clerics if they had them would not I'm sure advocate the killing of white U.K. citizens and then complain they are getting booted out of the country for incitment to murder.

If I had a choice as to Muslims or backpackers give me backpackers clean or otherwise any day of the week.

the aussie remark was a joke aimed at aussiefella

[thaimee]

leave now and don't ever come back!

Yes leave now and don't ever come back. Hit the road jack...

Thaimee.

[davethailand]

and don't you come back no more no more no more no more.

[Ausiefella]

I spent some time in the uk during the 90"s. And what I saw there in places sickened me. I was the only white face walking down the street in a part of London once, and I felt very frightened for a while. I was being looked at as if I was the one who was in the wrong country. I can't understand why the Brits haven't elected a far right MP in some of these areas yet. All the shops were catering for these people, I could have been in a street in Jamaca, India, Afganistan or anywhere else, not London. When the police stop these people or arrest them the have to produce a leaflet thats printed in about 30 different languages to tell them what there doing and what their rights are.

This is the same now in parts of Australia with the high influx of Asians. This is why the far right have gained a foot hold in Australian politics.

And in both these countries, UNLIKE Thailand, these people are treated equally in law and are given health care, social security housed etc. etc. So you people here get down off your high horses, take off your rose tinted glasses concerning this country and get real.

And, before any of you say it, no I don't intend to leave, yes I enjoy living here, and I DO NOT have my head up my arse I am able to see this country for what it is and I accept it, but this doesn't mean I can't complain about it

[konangrit]

I spent some time in the uk during the 90"s. And what I saw there in places sickened me. I was the only white face walking down the street in a part of London once, and I felt very frightened for a while. I was being looked at as if I was the one who was in the wrong country. I can't understand why the Brits haven't elected a far right MP in some of these areas yet. All the shops were catering for these people, I could have been in a street in Jamaca, India, Afganistan or anywhere else, not London. When the police stop these people or arrest them the have to produce a leaflet thats printed in about 30 different languages to tell them what there doing and what their rights are.

This is the same now in parts of Australia with the high influx of Asians. This is why the far right have gained a foot hold in Australian politics.

And in both these countries, UNLIKE Thailand, these people are treated equally in law and are given health care, social security housed etc. etc. So you people here get down off your high horses, take off your rose tinted glasses concerning this country and get real.

And, before any of you say it, no I don't intend to leave, yes I enjoy living here, and I DO NOT have my head up my arse I am able to see this country for what it is and I accept it, but this doesn't mean I can't complain about it

You don't even get the irony of your post do you?

[Limbo]

Axel is quite right in the sense that a foreigner not easily picks up the Thai way of thinking.

Certainly not the expats working on short-term contracts in Bangkok. They have no direct reason to do so (next stop might be Hong Kong or Rio de Janeiro) and they flock together to celebrate their own National Holidays, Santaclaus and Christmas. The Irish will meet on St. Patricks Day, the Dutch will drink jenever and eat herring on Queens Day and the Americans will dispatch turkeys on Thanksgiving-day. The ladies will talk about the sheer impossibility to find a good housemaid and their husbands are mostly positioning themselves with a conversation which only seldom reaches the level of Donald Duck and his nephews.

Certainly not the Great Masters of beer and verbalised virility either. I would not be surprised if most of them wouldn’t even be able to point out Thailand on a worldmap. They make too much noise themselves to listen and learning starts with listening.

If Thai thinking is hidden in Skinners black box, the key might simply in observing Thai behaviour. To relate specific behaviour to specific situations and this preferably the Thai way. To understand the predictability of Thai behaviour and to comply with it yourself. And then, after a long, long, long time, acting becomes being.

To give away a good laugh to some of the readers: recently I stepped on a snail and heard myself silently apologise.

I love the days of the mountainbike challenges here in the north. ‘They’are still Thais and ‘I’ am still a foreigner, but together we are crazy bicyclists. We!

[konangrit]

I spent some time in Australia during the 90"s. And what I saw there in places sickened me. I was the only black face walking down the street in a part of Canberra once, and I felt very frightened for a while. I was being looked at as if I was the one who was in the wrong country. I can't understand why the Aborigines haven't elected a far right MP in some of these areas yet. All the shops were catering for these people, I could have been in a street in England, Scotland, Wales or anywhere else, not Canberra. When the police stop these people or arrest them the have to produce a leaflet thats printed in English to tell them what there doing and what their rights are.

[samran]

I spent some time in the uk during the 90"s. And what I saw there in places sickened me. I was the only white face walking down the street in a part of London once, and I felt very frightened for a while. I was being looked at as if I was the one who was in the wrong country. I can't understand why the Brits haven't elected a far right MP in some of these areas yet. All the shops were catering for these people, I could have been in a street in Jamaca, India, Afganistan or anywhere else, not London.  When the police stop these people or arrest them the have to produce a leaflet thats printed in about 30 different languages to tell them what there doing and what their rights are.

This is the same now in parts of Australia with the high influx of Asians. This is why  the far right have gained a foot hold in Australian politics.

And in both these countries, UNLIKE Thailand, these people are treated equally in law and are given health care, social security housed etc. etc. So you people here get down off your high horses, take off your rose tinted glasses concerning this country and get real.

And, before any of you say it, no I don't intend to leave, yes I enjoy living here, and I DO NOT have my head up my arse I am able to see this country for what it is and I accept it, but this doesn't mean I can't complain about it

You don't even get the irony of your post do you?

no, cause he somehow assumes that he has an automatic right to live in Thailand. Few too many brain cells lost me thinks.

[wamberal]

Australia is turning into the most marvellously diverse country. I grew up in a suburb about 15 kms from the centre of Sydney...in my youth, quite a few years ago, it was a quiet middle-class all white dormitory. There were no restaurants in the shopping centre..the closest we got to exotic food was the Greek fish and chip shop. It was pleasant, but dull and boring to say the least. Now, the place has been taken over (I suppose Pauline Hanson would say over-run) by a variety of Korean and Chinese shops, businesses, and restaurants of all shapes and sizes.

The place is jumping 7 days a week. By the way, a lot of the residents are still white. I haven't heard any complaints. The suburb retains the best features it has always had, good schools and a good community feeling, and a good rugby team, but visiting it now is just like taking an overseas holiday. Long live immigration!!!

[stroll]

"Everybody is a foreigner almost everywhere in the world"

[Eggy]

Racist bullsh_t aussiefella.

Get back to your all white Utopia if that's what you crave.

[Ausiefella]

Certainly not what I crave my dear Eggy, thats why I live here in an ASIAN country, I am not racist, or why would I be living, working, paying my taxes in this country, and be in a relationship with a Thai?

I am trying to make a point here, which is going way over peoples heads, wonder why? There are many here who are complaining that farang don't intigrate, learn the language etc. and that they are therefore not welcome in this country. I say boll@cks to that. Go look at other countries, where it don't happen to, but look at how those countries treat these people, its not the same as here. Now you can say what you like about me, but this is the truth.

BTW - EGGY is that the smell that comes out of your mouth when you open it?

[konangrit]

I am not racist, or why would I be living, working, paying my taxes in this country, and be in a relationship with a Thai?

BTW - EGGY is that the smell that comes out of your mouth when you open it?

Do school children have to pay taxes?

[Ausiefella]

You should know if anyone does

[stroll]

I have lost the point, Ausiefellan. Are you saying that because second generation Pakistanis are eligible for British citizenship, without having to eat fish and chips every day, and being allowed to keep their Muslim faith, farangs in Thailand don't need to make an effort to fit in?

Please correct me.

[Ausiefella]

No, I'm just fed up with hearing expats or tourists who come here for a month thinking they know it all slagging off certain types of people who choose to live in Thailand, or holiday here for prolonged periods.

I'm trying to make comparisons to how visitors or expats in Western countries from 3rd world countries behave (not all), to knock these snobs off thier high horses.

[Eggy]

I spent some time in the uk during the 90"s. And what I saw there in places sickened me. I was the only white face walking down the street in a part of London once, and I felt very frightened for a while. I was being looked at as if I was the one who was in the wrong country.

If this is not a racist rant then Hitler was a teapot.

Aussiefella, you may live work and pay taxes here but you are still a racist. Read your words again and deny it.