Russia to pay damages for Beslan school siege after European court ruling, Ifax reports

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Russia to pay damages for Beslan school siege after European court ruling, Ifax reports

 

A man stands in front of photographs of the 2004 school siege victims inside the school building in the southern town of Beslan, Russia, April 13, 2017. REUTERS/Kazbek Basayev 

 

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia will abide by a European Court of Human Rights ruling requiring it to pay nearly 3 million euros ($3.6 million) in damages for the 2004 Beslan school siege, Interfax news agency reported on Tuesday, citing the Russian justice ministry.

 

Russia used excessive force to storm a school in the small southern Russian town seized by Islamist militants in 2004, causing a high number of hostages to be killed, the court ruled in April.

 

The three-day drama began when Islamist militants took more than 1,000 people hostages on the first day of the school year and called for independence for the majority-Muslim region of Chechnya.

 

More than 330 hostages lost their lives, including at least 180 children, when the siege ended in a gun battle. It was the bloodiest incident of its kind in modern Russian history.

 

The case for damages was brought by 409 Russian nationals who either were taken hostage or injured in the incident, or were family members of those taken hostage, killed or injured, the European Court of Human Rights statement said in April.

 

On Tuesday, the court said in a press release that its Grand Chamber Panel had rejected a Russian government request to refer the case and said its ruling was final.

 

"No other actions are being contemplated by the participants in this process," the Russian justice ministry said in comments carried by Interfax news agency.

 

In its April ruling, the court said the heavy-handed way Russian forces stormed the school had "contributed to the casualties among the hostages".

 

It also ruled that authorities had failed to take reasonable preventive measures, despite knowing militants were planning to attack an educational institution.

 

($1 = 0.8335 euros)

 

(Reporting by Gabrielle Tétrault-Farber; Editing by Larry King)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-09-20

[craigt3365]

Why would it take a court ruling for Russia to take care of it's own citizens hurt during this incident?  Especially a court ruling from Europe?

[KKr]

The innocent victims are, as can be understood, not happy that they got hurt in the incident.   However, their first port of call should be the sponsors of the terrorist acts, and only then the State that in these cases failed to deter the terrorists.

Officials argue that an appropriate amount of force was used in Beslan and in the Dubrovka Theater   occupations. 
Very hard to say what would have happened if they used other methods. Remember this happened against the background of a war in Chechnya after a few Metro bombings rattled Moscow already.   IMHO the chances are that also a large number of hostages would have died, and moreover that the events possibly would have been repeated in future.
The occupiers were not the pussy-footing kind, and were answered with a forceful counter terrorist action.

[craigt3365]

1 minute ago, KKr said:

The innocent victims are, as can be understood, not happy that they got hurt in the incident.
However, their first port of call should be the sponsors of the terrorist acts, and only then the State that in these cases failed to deter the terrorists.

Officials argue that an appropriate amount of force was used in Beslan and in the Dubrovka Theater occupations. 
Very hard to say what would have happened if they used other methods. Remember this happened against the background of a war in Chechnya after a few Metro bombings rattled Moscow already.
IMHO the chances are that also a large number of hostages would have died, and moreover that the events possibly would have been repeated in future.
The occupiers were not the pussy-footing kind, and were answered with a forceful counter terrorist action.

Understood.  But Russia's actions in Chechnya is what created these terrorists.  Research how they've been treated.  It's horrible.  Treat them properly and perhaps they won't be terrorists??

 

Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Understood.  But Russia's actions in Chechnya is what created these terrorists.  Research how they've been treated.  It's horrible.  Treat them properly and perhaps they won't be terrorists??

 

Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces.

Not true.

"A 7 December 2015 report by the Soufan Group gave estimates for the number of foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq by their country and region of origin based on information dated between 2014 and 2015.[22] The study listed the countries with the largest number of foreign fighters were Tunisia (6000), Saudi Arabia (2500), Russia (2400), Turkey (2100), Jordan (2000+)[23][22] while the number of fighters by region was reported to be: the Middle East (8240), the Maghreb (8000), Western Europe (5000), former Soviet Republics (4700), Southeast Asia (900), the Balkans (875), and North America (289)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_fighters_in_the_Syrian_and_Iraqi_Civil_Wars

[KKr]

3 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Understood.  But Russia's actions in Chechnya is what created these terrorists.  Research how they've been treated.  It's horrible.  Treat them properly and perhaps they won't be terrorists??

 

Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces.

What makes you state that "It's horrible" I do not know.
Chechnya unilaterally declared independence; (Former) Warlords run/ran the country as a fiefdom, according to some; Pre-independance some Russians went to University in Grozny and many more students the other way; is that what you mean?
However, I know for sure that a discussion about this would take us far outside of Thailand. Especially since propaganda and counter propaganda would have to be neatly analyzed, and after that conclusions drawn. If you have time to do a PhD in politicology, sociology, or history, this might be a nice subject.

The last "fact" you mention has been addressed already by ilostmypassword .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya 
has a wrap up of the history of the region, albeit obviously written by different people, that are trying to get the information they consider relevant to be  published.

Edited September 20, 2017 by KKr

[KKr]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

Not true.

"A 7 December 2015 report by the Soufan Group gave estimates for the number of foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq by their country and region of origin based on information dated between 2014 and 2015.[22] The study listed the countries with the largest number of foreign fighters were Tunisia (6000), Saudi Arabia (2500), Russia (2400), Turkey (2100), Jordan (2000+)[23][22] while the number of fighters by region was reported to be: the Middle East (8240), the Maghreb (8000), Western Europe (5000), former Soviet Republics (4700), Southeast Asia (900), the Balkans (875), and North America (289)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_fighters_in_the_Syrian_and_Iraqi_Civil_Wars

Interesting numbers, thank you for posting.
At first sight I would say there is a distinct correlation with % religion/belief in the country what is not a surprise, but moreover a negative correlation with Income per Capita.

[craigt3365]

6 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Not true.

"A 7 December 2015 report by the Soufan Group gave estimates for the number of foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq by their country and region of origin based on information dated between 2014 and 2015.[22] The study listed the countries with the largest number of foreign fighters were Tunisia (6000), Saudi Arabia (2500), Russia (2400), Turkey (2100), Jordan (2000+)[23][22] while the number of fighters by region was reported to be: the Middle East (8240), the Maghreb (8000), Western Europe (5000), former Soviet Republics (4700), Southeast Asia (900), the Balkans (875), and North America (289)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_fighters_in_the_Syrian_and_Iraqi_Civil_Wars

Even Putin admits there may be up to 7,000 fighters from Russia in Syria. LOL

 

http://time.com/4739488/isis-iraq-syria-tunisia-saudi-arabia-russia/

Quote

Russian President Vladimir Putin himself estimates that between 5,000 and 7,000 people from Russia and other former Soviet republics have traveled to Syria to take up arms with ISIS and other militants. For Russia, the fight against Islamic terrorism is oftentimes a fight with itself.

 

My claim stands.

[ilostmypassword]

9 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Not true.

"A 7 December 2015 report by the Soufan Group gave estimates for the number of foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq by their country and region of origin based on information dated between 2014 and 2015.[22] The study listed the countries with the largest number of foreign fighters were Tunisia (6000), Saudi Arabia (2500), Russia (2400), Turkey (2100), Jordan (2000+)[23][22] while the number of fighters by region was reported to be: the Middle East (8240), the Maghreb (8000), Western Europe (5000), former Soviet Republics (4700), Southeast Asia (900), the Balkans (875), and North America (289)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_fighters_in_the_Syrian_and_Iraqi_Civil_Wars

 

3 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Even Putin admits there may be up to 7,000 fighters from Russia in Syria. LOL

 

http://time.com/4739488/isis-iraq-syria-tunisia-saudi-arabia-russia/

 

My claim stands.

Whatever your claim is standing on, it's certainly not arithmetic. And to be clear, your claim is "Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces."

First off, according to the article you linked to, Putin did not say that there were up to 7000 foreign fighters from Russia.

"Russian President Vladimir Putin himself estimates that between 5,000 and 7,000 people from Russia and other former Soviet republics have traveled to Syria to take up arms with ISIS and other militants." But since your original assertion was "Russian/Russian provinces", even though that's not strictly accurate, they're countries, not provinces, it's hardly worth quibbling about. So let that pass.

In fact, I'm going to be generous. I will combine the numbers above which give Russia 2400 and former Soviet republics 4700. So that total comes to 7100. If you look at the number of fighters by region and total all of them except the ones from Russia and the former Soviet Republics, you get a total of 23, 314.  So how does 7100 from the former Soviet Union outnumber 23,314. It's not even 25% of the total number of foreign fighters in Syria. 

Is there some sort of electoral college figuring at work here?

I'm honestly puzzled at how you can continue to support your assertion that "Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces." It just doesn't make sense.

[craigt3365]

8 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

Whatever your claim is standing on, it's certainly not arithmetic. And to be clear, your claim is "Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces."

First off, according to the article you linked to, Putin did not say that there were up to 7000 foreign fighters from Russia.

"Russian President Vladimir Putin himself estimates that between 5,000 and 7,000 people from Russia and other former Soviet republics have traveled to Syria to take up arms with ISIS and other militants." But since your original assertion was "Russian/Russian provinces", even though that's not strictly accurate, they're countries, not provinces, it's hardly worth quibbling about. So let that pass.

In fact, I'm going to be generous. I will combine the numbers above which give Russia 2400 and former Soviet republics 4700. So that total comes to 7100. If you look at the number of fighters by region and total all of them except the ones from Russia and the former Soviet Republics, you get a total of 23, 314.  So how does 7100 from the former Soviet Union outnumber 23,314. It's not even 25% of the total number of foreign fighters in Syria. 

Is there some sort of electoral college figuring at work here?

I'm honestly puzzled at how you can continue to support your assertion that "Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces." It just doesn't make sense.

You should have been a lawyer.  You'd nit pick them to death.  Jeez. 

[ilostmypassword]

9 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

You should have been a lawyer.  You'd nit pick them to death.  Jeez. 

You claim that less than 25% of the total number of fighters is a majority and my  pointing out that this is an error is nit picking? Maybe in your world nit is a synonym for gigantic objects? 

or...

"Innumerate: Without a basic knowledge of mathematics and arithmetic."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/innumerate

[Scott]

Stop with the bickering and get back to the topic, which ISN'T mathematics.  

[simple1]

On 20/09/2017 at 10:25 AM, craigt3365 said:

Why would it take a court ruling for Russia to take care of it's own citizens hurt during this incident?  Especially a court ruling from Europe?

Russia is a member of the European Council, the ECtHR makes ruling on matters referred by European Council member countries.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights

 

 

[halloween]

A pity Chechnya is not a member, then the european council could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists.

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, halloween said:

A pity Chechnya is not a member, then the european council could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists.

Chechnya is part of Russia. Analagous to a state or province.

[halloween]

8 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Chechnya is part of Russia. Analagous to a state or province.

Thank you, I was aware of that. Also that they are not a part of Russia by choice of the residents.

 

The point of my post was questioning who is more to blame for the deaths and injuries, those who botched a rescue operation, or the terrorists who took young children and teachers hostage and threatened to kill them unless their demand were met.

Edited September 21, 2017 by halloween

[2alex4alex]

On 9/20/2017 at 10:24 AM, craigt3365 said:

Understood.  But Russia's actions in Chechnya is what created these terrorists.  Research how they've been treated.  It's horrible.  Treat them properly and perhaps they won't be terrorists??

 

Most of the foreign fighters in Syria are from Russia/Russian provinces.

So following your logic US treated them badly as well..Just remember about Tsarnaev's brothers..

[craigt3365]

12 hours ago, 2alex4alex said:

So following your logic US treated them badly as well..Just remember about Tsarnaev's brothers..

Right.  The Kyrgyz brothers whose parents were forcibly removed from Chechnya and relocated to Kyrgyzstan?  Where they were born.  I.E. NOT Chechnya.  And then let into the US via an asylum request who killed many?  The US treated them fantastic.  They went to college, but were nut job religious fanatics.  One brother has even apologized. 

 

Perhaps if Russia had treated them better they would have stayed in Dagestan.  Thanks Russia!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush

Quote

The Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, also known as Aardakh (Chechen: Aardax), Operation Lentil (Russian: Чечевица, Chechevitsa; Chechen: Вайнах махкахбахар Vaynax Maxkaxbaxar) was the Soviet expulsion of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on February 23, 1944, during World War II. The expulsion, preceded by the 1940–1944 insurgency in Chechnya, was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of non-Russian Soviet ethnic minorities between the 1930s and the 1950s.

 

[ilostmypassword]

13 hours ago, halloween said:

Thank you, I was aware of that. Also that they are not a part of Russia by choice of the residents.

 

The point of my post was questioning who is more to blame for the deaths and injuries, those who botched a rescue operation, or the terrorists who took young children and teachers hostage and threatened to kill them unless their demand were met.

I don't understand. The post I addressed was this:

"A pity Chechnya is not a member, then the european council could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists."

Now you're writing that it was about who is more to blame: "those who botched a rescue operation, or the terrorists who took young children and teachers hostage and threatened to kill them unless their demand were met."

Neither of those parties is the Chechen government. If you do have a case for assigning some culpability to the Chechen government, you haven't made it yet.

[2alex4alex]

26 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Right.  The Kyrgyz brothers whose parents were forcibly removed from Chechnya and relocated to Kyrgyzstan?  Where they were born.  I.E. NOT Chechnya.  And then let into the US via an asylum request who killed many?  The US treated them fantastic.  They went to college, but were nut job religious fanatics.  One brother has even apologized. 

 

Perhaps if Russia had treated them better they would have stayed in Dagestan.  Thanks Russia!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush

 

Thank you for links to American propaganda.They were deported because of supporting Nazi's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostlegionen. Fortunately I know a lot of them personally..Not nice kind of people..I would never comments on events of American history because I sure that Americans know about it better just because they can see it by they own eyes. But for you is not problem to comments on events in other countries just because you read some articles in internet.

.So you can continue to study history by reading your propaganda..Good Luck! 

[craigt3365]

23 minutes ago, 2alex4alex said:

Thank you for links to American propaganda.They were deported because of supporting Nazi's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostlegionen. Fortunately I know a lot of them personally..Not nice kind of people..I would never comments on events of American history because I sure that Americans know about it better just because they can see it by they own eyes. But for you is not problem to comments on events in other countries just because you read some articles in internet.

.So you can continue to study history by reading your propaganda..Good Luck! 

So you are saying every single man, woman and child deported were Nazi supporters?  Because all were deported.  Kinda hard to believe.  Saying they were all Nazi supporters would be great propaganda.  Gets the job done.

 

You're link proves nothing.  From my link:

Quote

The deportation encompassed their entire nations, as well as the complete liquidation of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. The demographic consequences of this eviction were catastrophic and far reaching: of the 478,000 Chechens and Ingush who were deported, at least a quarter of them perished.

 

[ilostmypassword]

58 minutes ago, 2alex4alex said:

Thank you for links to American propaganda.They were deported because of supporting Nazi's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostlegionen. Fortunately I know a lot of them personally..Not nice kind of people..I would never comments on events of American history because I sure that Americans know about it better just because they can see it by they own eyes. But for you is not problem to comments on events in other countries just because you read some articles in internet.

.So you can continue to study history by reading your propaganda..Good Luck! 

What those who participated on the side of Germany did was choose Hitler over Stalin. Maybe because the enemy of my enemy is my friend? I doubt these people had much interest in Nazi ideology.

[halloween]

4 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

I don't understand. The post I addressed was this:

"A pity Chechnya is not a member, then the european council could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists."

Now you're writing that it was about who is more to blame: "those who botched a rescue operation, or the terrorists who took young children and teachers hostage and threatened to kill them unless their demand were met."

Neither of those parties is the Chechen government. If you do have a case for assigning some culpability to the Chechen government, you haven't made it yet.

So you don't know that the Chechen secessionist movement has their own government? Or do just want to continue nit-picking?

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, halloween said:

So you don't know that the Chechen secessionist movement has their own government? Or do just want to continue nit-picking?

What you previously wrote didn't address this issue at all. I can read your words but not your mind.

[halloween]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

What you previously wrote didn't address this issue at all. I can read your words but not your mind.

".... could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists. "

 

How is that statement NOT about who is to blame?

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, halloween said:

".... could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists. "

 

How is that statement NOT about who is to blame?

Not fair to misleadingly cut quotes, even if they are your own. Here's a more complete text:

"A pity Chechnya is not a member, then the european council could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists."

 

You followed that with:

"So you don't know that the Chechen secessionist movement has their own government? Or do just want to continue nit-picking?"

 

So you are expecting your reader to assume that you were not referring to the legitimate government of Chechnya but some revolutionary group that called itself the government of Chechnya?  

 

[halloween]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Not fair to misleadingly cut quotes, even if they are your own. Here's a more complete text:

"A pity Chechnya is not a member, then the european council could have apportioned blame for the deaths and injuries of an attempt to free hostages from terrorists."

 

You followed that with:

"So you don't know that the Chechen secessionist movement has their own government? Or do just want to continue nit-picking?"

 

So you are expecting your reader to assume that you were not referring to the legitimate government of Chechnya but some revolutionary group that called itself the government of Chechnya?  

 

Obviously you wish to continue nitpicking.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

Obviously you wish to continue nitpicking.