Sentence Builder

[In the Rai!]

ี มีเสน่ห์ another rare occasion where the phonetic is wrong in Thai2English

ผมมีเสน่ห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจไม่ให้ชอบผมได้

I read this as your wife cannot resist disliking you! Have I misunderstood?? I see a double negative.

ไม่ สามารถ ยับยั้ง ใจ ................. ได้ is unable to resist

....................... ไม่ ให้ ชอบ ผม .... dislike me

Sorry if I've missed something

Loong,

well spotted mate. A ไม่ snuck in there and it shouldn't have.

It should read ผมมีเสน่ห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจให้ชอบผมได้

thanks

ITR

[yoot]

ี มีเสน่ห์ another rare occasion where the phonetic is wrong in Thai2English

ผมมีเสน่ห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจไม่ให้ชอบผมได้

I read this as your wife cannot resist disliking you! Have I misunderstood?? I see a double negative.

ไม่ สามารถ ยับยั้ง ใจ ................. ได้ is unable to resist

....................... ไม่ ให้ ชอบ ผม .... dislike me

Sorry if I've missed something

Loong,

well spotted mate. A ไม่ snuck in there and it shouldn't have.

It should read ผมมีเสน่ห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจให้ชอบผมได้

thanks

ITR

ITR, I think you were correct at the first one.

ผมมี่เสนห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจไม่ให้ชอบผมได้

It literally translate as " I'm so charming until mywife can't restrain(herself) not to like me.

For other examples:

ผมไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจตัวเองให้ไม่ดื่มเหล้าได้ ผมจึงต้องดื่ม

- I can't restrain myself not to drink, so I have to drink.

คนเราต้องรู้จักยับยั้งใจตัวเอง

- People have to know to restrain themselves.

[In the Rai!]

ี มีเสน่ห์ another rare occasion where the phonetic is wrong in Thai2English

ผมมีเสน่ห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจไม่ให้ชอบผมได้

I read this as your wife cannot resist disliking you! Have I misunderstood?? I see a double negative.

ไม่ สามารถ ยับยั้ง ใจ ................. ได้ is unable to resist

....................... ไม่ ให้ ชอบ ผม .... dislike me

Sorry if I've missed something

Loong,

well spotted mate. A ไม่ snuck in there and it shouldn't have.

It should read ผมมีเสน่ห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจให้ชอบผมได้

thanks

ITR

ITR, I think you were correct at the first one.

ผมมี่เสนห์ดึงดูดใจเมียมากจนเมียไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจไม่ให้ชอบผมได้

It literally translate as " I'm so charming until mywife can't restrain(herself) not to like me.

For other examples:

ผมไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจตัวเองให้ไม่ดื่มเหล้าได้ ผมจึงต้องดื่ม

- I can't restrain myself not to drink, so I have to drink.

คนเราต้องรู้จักยับยั้งใจตัวเอง

- People have to know to restrain themselves.

Hi Yoot,

i thought it was ok, but then I started to doubt it after Loong mentioned it. It is a tricky one isnt it.

cheers ITR

[loong]

ผมไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจตัวเองให้ไม่ดื่มเหล้าได้ ผมจึงต้องดื่ม

- I can't restrain myself not to drink, so I have to drink.

I think that this is one of the situations when Thai does not readily translate into English with the standard definition.

Example สงสัย sŏng-săi doubt ; suspect ; to be suspicious

In English if we say

"I suspect that he is over 70 years old" it means that I think he is over 70

but if we say

"I doubt that he is over 70 years old" it means that I think he is not over 70

สามารถยับยั้งใจตัวเองได้ would this translate better as "Have willpower" or "Have self control" instead of restrain myself ?

"I do not have the willpower to not drink, so I have to drink."

คนเราต้องรู้จักยับยั้งใจตัวเอง

"People have to know (learn) self control

Thanks

[yoot]

ผมไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจตัวเองให้ไม่ดื่มเหล้าได้ ผมจึงต้องดื่ม

- I can't restrain myself not to drink, so I have to drink.

I think that this is one of the situations when Thai does not readily translate into English with the standard definition.

Example สงสัย sŏng-săi doubt ; suspect ; to be suspicious

In English if we say

"I suspect that he is over 70 years old" it means that I think he is over 70

but if we say

"I doubt that he is over 70 years old" it means that I think he is not over 70

สามารถยับยั้งใจตัวเองได้ would this translate better as "Have willpower" or "Have self control" instead of restrain myself ?

"I do not have the willpower to not drink, so I have to drink."

คนเราต้องรู้จักยับยั้งใจตัวเอง

"People have to know (learn) self control

Thanks

Well, I'm not sure if I understand it correctly or not. But I think there is something different between control one's self and restain one's self.

control one's self, to me it's like you have to control yourself what you should do or should not do.

But restain one's self is like there is some reason to stop you to do something you really want to do.

I might be wrong but that is the difference between ควบคุมตัวเอง and ยับยั้งใจตัวเอง in Thai. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.

[loong]

Hello Yoot

"Self control" is often used in the context of resisting temptation.

In your example...

ผมไม่สามารถยับยั้งใจตัวเองให้ไม่ดื่มเหล้าได้ ผมจึงต้องดื่ม

"I can't restrain myself not to drink, so I have to drink."

You could say that "I cannot resist the temptation to drink, so I drink", or "I lack the self control to not drink, so I drink"

Self control and willpower are often interchangeable.

In English, I think that you would find it nearly impossible to find "I can't restrain myself" without the words "from ........ing" following. I hope that I'm explaining this adequately. So your example can easily be misunderstood.

"I can't restrain myself from not drinking, so I have to drink." we would drop the "not" to convey the intended meaning.

"I can't restrain myself from drinking, so I have to drink."

I'm sorry that I am not too good at explaining things clearly

I'm not sure if อดกลั้น can be used here as in abstaining by will(power)

รั้ง I think means self control as in controlling one's emotions

Thanks for your explanations, they have been very useful

Edited February 16, 2007 by loong

[yoot]

Thanks, loong. Well, I think I might use the wrong English word to explain my understanding.

ยับยั้งใจ - to restrain, to stop, to cease.

ยับยั้ง - to halt, to stop, to constrain

So, what do you think it fits in that sentence?

Anyway, I think you are right. Translating literally from Thai sentence to English might sound weird for Native English. And my only excuse is, I'm not that good in English.

I'm not sure if อดกลั้น can be used here as in abstaining by will(power)

อดกลั้น means to have self-control, to restrain oneself, to suppress one's feeling.

รั้ง I think means self control as in controlling one's emotions

รั้ง means to stop, to hold back, to delay

ยับยั้งใจ and รั้งใจ can be used interchangeably.

[loong]

Anyway, I think you are right. Translating literally from Thai sentence to English might sound weird for Native English. And my only excuse is, I'm not that good in English. biggrin.gif

Your English is very good, so no worries there. I only wish that my Thai could be half as good as your English.

Thanks for your help in explaining this one, it made me take a look from another angle and understand it a little better.

Cheers

[bannork]

Thanks, loong. Well, I think I might use the wrong English word to explain my understanding.

ยับยั้งใจ - to restrain, to stop, to cease.

ยับยั้ง - to halt, to stop, to constrain

So, what do you think it fits in that sentence?

Anyway, I think you are right. Translating literally from Thai sentence to English might sound weird for Native English. And my only excuse is, I'm not that good in English.

I'm not sure if อดกลั้น can be used here as in abstaining by will(power)

อดกลั้น means to have self-control, to restrain oneself, to suppress one's feeling.

รั้ง I think means self control as in controlling one's emotions

รั้ง means to stop, to hold back, to delay

ยับยั้งใจ and รั้งใจ can be used interchangeably.

I remember the joke Thais used to make about Aids when they said กลัวอดมากกว่ากลัวเอดส์ more afraid of abstaining from sex than from Aids itself!

I think in the drinking example we could simply say,' I can't stop drinking', 'I can't resist a drink' 'I haven't got the willpower to stop drinking'

It would sound odd to say,' I'm not able to stop drinking so I drink' or 'I can't resist a drink so I drink'.

Monty Python had it right in the philospher's song- I drink therefore I am!

[CSS]

This was a great thread that got me hooked on the Thai Language forum, unfortunately it's gone dry. I never posted on it as those posting were much more capable but I'm hoping I can get it going again. I'll start a sentence and take advantage of the opportunity to use a phrase that one of my employees has used several times recently but I don't entirely understand.

หลังจากหน่อยกลับมาที่บ้าน เขานึกว่า ชีวิตเป็นสับปะรด

[CSS]

The thread is still dry but I'm still hoping that it will flow again. I recognize now that I chose a pretty poor sentence to start a sentence building exercise last time. Would anyone like to build off/change/correct/modify this sentence?

วันวันหนึ่งมีคนคนหนึ่งที่เดินผ่านๆไป

[CSS]

There have been some situations where I wanted to explain or talk about character changes after switching cultures/environments. How ones general character improves or declines and I've played around with some words for character in this context but haven't found one I'm comfortable with yet or that seems to get the point across quite right. One I've used but doesn't seem to get it quite right is นิสัย is seems too closely related to habits/actions and I'm looking for more a state of being character, though you can be นิสัยดี/ไม่ดี that makes things too black and white though.

Some other translations from various dictionaries that seem relevant are: หลักศีลธรรม องค์ กิริยาดี I've never used these words in context so I was hoping some of you could put them into some senteces using the general context of character change for the worse or better. Or if you have a better word to use I'd love to learn it.

Thanks

CSS

[CSS]

I have two words/phrases that I would like to explore in the following context and would love some feedback.

The first is เหมาะสมกับ or สมควรได้รับ I would like to use it in the context of telling someone that they deserve better from life than what they've received. (that the quality of their quality character is worthy of better cards than they've been dealt in life)

Would it be proper to say คุณสมควรได้รับสิ่งที่ดีกว่าสิ่งทีไดรับเป็นจริง or คุณเหมาะสมกับชีวิดที่ดีกว่าชีวิตที่คุณเคยมี

The second is just the use of ถึงแม้ว่า or one of the other many phrases loosely translated as "even if"

For example is it a correct usage of the above to say ผมจะไปเที่ยวทะเลถึงแม้ว่าฝนตก or is there a different phrase that would be better?

[yoot]

This was a great thread that got me hooked on the Thai Language forum, unfortunately it's gone dry. I never posted on it as those posting were much more capable but I'm hoping I can get it going again. I'll start a sentence and take advantage of the opportunity to use a phrase that one of my employees has used several times recently but I don't entirely understand.

หลังจากหน่อยกลับมาที่บ้าน เขานึกว่า ชีวิตเป็นสับปะรด

Do you mean you don't understand the phrase "ชีวิตเป็นสับปะรด"?

If yes, then you should know that it's correct to say "ไม่เป็นสับปะรด" which is used in negative sentence. It means " bad, no good or suck".

So, in your sentence, it's not proper to say "เขานึกว่า ชีวิตเป็นสับปะรด", unless you want to use this phrase as a metaphor compare his life with pineapple which I don't know how it should be.

[yoot]

The thread is still dry but I'm still hoping that it will flow again. I recognize now that I chose a pretty poor sentence to start a sentence building exercise last time. Would anyone like to build off/change/correct/modify this sentence?

วันวันหนึ่งมีคนคนหนึ่งที่เดินผ่านๆไป

Your sentence is too difficult to understand even for a native Thai speaker as me.

I will try to split it to parts.

วันวันหนึ่ง - each day

มีคนคนหนึ่ง - there is a person

ที่เดิน - who walk

ผ่านๆไป - pass by (without having any intention to walk pass by that area or interested in anything around tha area)

So, what was the meaning in your mind when you posted that sentence?

[yoot]

There have been some situations where I wanted to explain or talk about character changes after switching cultures/environments. How ones general character improves or declines and I've played around with some words for character in this context but haven't found one I'm comfortable with yet or that seems to get the point across quite right. One I've used but doesn't seem to get it quite right is นิสัย is seems too closely related to habits/actions and I'm looking for more a state of being character, though you can be นิสัยดี/ไม่ดี that makes things too black and white though.

Some other translations from various dictionaries that seem relevant are: หลักศีลธรรม องค์ กิริยาดี I've never used these words in context so I was hoping some of you could put them into some senteces using the general context of character change for the worse or better. Or if you have a better word to use I'd love to learn it.

Thanks

CSS

I would use the word "อุปนิสัย" or "ลักษณะนิสัย" . And I wouldn't use ดี or ไม่ดี to describe the person as you said it makes things too black and white. I would use ดีขึ้น or แย่ลง instead.

For example;

ตั้งแต่เขากลับจากเมืองไทย อุปนิสัย(ลักษณะนิสัย)เขาเปลี่ยนไปนะ ดูดีขี้น ไม่รู้ว่าเกิดอะไรขึ้น

- Since he came back from Thailand, his character has changed, look better. Don't know what happened.

" นิสัย " is mostly used in the meaning of "habit"

For example ;

นิสัยที่ไม่ดีของผมคือชอบกัดเล็บ

- My bad habit is tending to bite my finger nails.

[yoot]

I have two words/phrases that I would like to explore in the following context and would love some feedback.

The first is เหมาะสมกับ or สมควรได้รับ I would like to use it in the context of telling someone that they deserve better from life than what they've received. (that the quality of their quality character is worthy of better cards than they've been dealt in life)

Would it be proper to say คุณสมควรได้รับสิ่งที่ดีกว่าสิ่งทีไดรับเป็นจริง or คุณเหมาะสมกับชีวิดที่ดีกว่าชีวิตที่คุณเคยมี

The second is just the use of ถึงแม้ว่า or one of the other many phrases loosely translated as "even if"

For example is it a correct usage of the above to say ผมจะไปเที่ยวทะเลถึงแม้ว่าฝนตก or is there a different phrase that would be better?

เหมาะสม - suitable, proper, appropriate, fitting, becoming, reasonable.

สมควร - suitable, appropriate, proper, fitting, worthy, reasonable.

สมควรได้รับ - deserve.

" คุณสมควรได้รับสิ่งที่ดีกว่าสิ่งที่คุณได้รับในตอนนี้ " - You deserve better thing than what you have received right now.

" คุณสมควรได้รับสิ่งที่ดีกว่าในชีวิต มากกว่าที่คุณได้รับมา " - You deserve better from life much more than what you have received.

" คุณเหมาะสมกับชีวิดที่ดีกว่าชีวิตที่คุณเคยมี " - You are fitting with the better life than what you used to have.

ถึงแม้ว่า - though, although, even if, even though.

" ผมจะไปเที่ยวทะเลถึงแม้ว่าฝนตก " is correct. But I would say " ถึงแม้ว่าฝนจะตก ผมก็จะไปเที่ยวทะเล " or " ถึงฝนจะตก ผมก็จะไปเที่ยวทะเล"

[CSS]

Thanks for all your replies Yoot. They're very helpful.

[CSS]

Do you mean you don't understand the phrase "ชีวิตเป็นสับปะรด"?

If yes, then you should know that it's correct to say "ไม่เป็นสับปะรด" which is used in negative sentence. It means " bad, no good or suck".

So, in your sentence, it's not proper to say "เขานึกว่า ชีวิตเป็นสับปะรด", unless you want to use this phrase as a metaphor compare his life with pineapple which I don't know how it should be.

Thanks. I posted the thread because when I heard it said I felt it was in a positive context but when I looked for the phrase online I only found negative contexts, like you said, and wondered if it could take on something positive. Next time I see the person I heard say it I'll ask them about how they used it.

I'll only use it in the negative sense for myself though. Thanks.

[CSS]

There have been some situations where I wanted to explain or talk about character changes after switching cultures/environments. How ones general character improves or declines and I've played around with some words for character in this context but haven't found one I'm comfortable with yet or that seems to get the point across quite right. One I've used but doesn't seem to get it quite right is นิสัย is seems too closely related to habits/actions and I'm looking for more a state of being character, though you can be นิสัยดี/ไม่ดี that makes things too black and white though.

Some other translations from various dictionaries that seem relevant are: หลักศีลธรรม องค์ กิริยาดี I've never used these words in context so I was hoping some of you could put them into some senteces using the general context of character change for the worse or better. Or if you have a better word to use I'd love to learn it.

Thanks

CSS

I would use the word "อุปนิสัย" or "ลักษณะนิสัย" . And I wouldn't use ดี or ไม่ดี to describe the person as you said it makes things too black and white. I would use ดีขึ้น or แย่ลง instead.

For example;

ตั้งแต่เขากลับจากเมืองไทย อุปนิสัย(ลักษณะนิสัย)เขาเปลี่ยนไปนะ ดูดีขี้น ไม่รู้ว่าเกิดอะไรขึ้น

- Since he came back from Thailand, his character has changed, look better. Don't know what happened.

" นิสัย " is mostly used in the meaning of "habit"

For example ;

นิสัยที่ไม่ดีของผมคือชอบกัดเล็บ

- My bad habit is tending to bite my finger nails.

That's exactly what I'm looking for; thanks Yoot!

To test my comprehension I'll try using the example but changing the subject to the first person. I'll keep the sentence intentionally general/vague. As it seems to me that I shouldn't say ดูดีขื้น about myself could I write:

ตั้งแต่เรื่องนั้นเกิดขึ้น อุปนิสัย(ของ)ผมแย่ลง

I was also wondering about the prefix อุป I've seen it before in the word for obstacle อุปสรรค what does the prefix mean?

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[CSS]

The thread is still dry but I'm still hoping that it will flow again. I recognize now that I chose a pretty poor sentence to start a sentence building exercise last time. Would anyone like to build off/change/correct/modify this sentence?

วันวันหนึ่งมีคนคนหนึ่งที่เดินผ่านๆไป

Your sentence is too difficult to understand even for a native Thai speaker as me.

I will try to split it to parts.

วันวันหนึ่ง - each day

มีคนคนหนึ่ง - there is a person

ที่เดิน - who walk

ผ่านๆไป - pass by (without having any intention to walk pass by that area or interested in anything around tha area)

So, what was the meaning in your mind when you posted that sentence?

I'm a bit embarrased...This was just my attempt at being a little poetic, but I obviously failed. Best to not waste any more of anyone's time on it. Basically it was just meant to be a vague sentence that could be built off of saying that "On one day, there was one person, who randomly passed by." I think the confusion might have come from the improper use of วันวันหนึ่ง as I didn't mean each day but rather "one unspecified day."

Thanks for working with me even in my ignorance and unreadable Thai.

[CSS]

I have two words/phrases that I would like to explore in the following context and would love some feedback.

The first is เหมาะสมกับ or สมควรได้รับ I would like to use it in the context of telling someone that they deserve better from life than what they've received. (that the quality of their quality character is worthy of better cards than they've been dealt in life)

Would it be proper to say คุณสมควรได้รับสิ่งที่ดีกว่าสิ่งทีไดรับเป็นจริง or คุณเหมาะสมกับชีวิดที่ดีกว่าชีวิตที่คุณเคยมี

The second is just the use of ถึงแม้ว่า or one of the other many phrases loosely translated as "even if"

For example is it a correct usage of the above to say ผมจะไปเที่ยวทะเลถึงแม้ว่าฝนตก or is there a different phrase that would be better?

เหมาะสม - suitable, proper, appropriate, fitting, becoming, reasonable.

สมควร - suitable, appropriate, proper, fitting, worthy, reasonable.

สมควรได้รับ - deserve.

" คุณสมควรได้รับสิ่งที่ดีกว่าสิ่งที่คุณได้รับในตอนนี้ " - You deserve better thing than what you have received right now.

" คุณสมควรได้รับสิ่งที่ดีกว่าในชีวิต มากกว่าที่คุณได้รับมา " - You deserve better from life much more than what you have received.

" คุณเหมาะสมกับชีวิดที่ดีกว่าชีวิตที่คุณเคยมี " - You are fitting with the better life than what you used to have.

ถึงแม้ว่า - though, although, even if, even though.

" ผมจะไปเที่ยวทะเลถึงแม้ว่าฝนตก " is correct. But I would say " ถึงแม้ว่าฝนจะตก ผมก็จะไปเที่ยวทะเล " or " ถึงฝนจะตก ผมก็จะไปเที่ยวทะเล"

Thanks for all this Yoot.

Your sentence above that I put in bold and underlined sounds like it fits the situation I'm looking for perfectly.

I still often order my sentences in a less than natural Thai way so I appreciate the suggestion concerning ถึงแม้ว่า

Helpful as always, Thanks.

[yoot]

To test my comprehension I'll try using the example but changing the subject to the first person. I'll keep the sentence intentionally general/vague. As it seems to me that I shouldn't say ดูดีขื้น about myself could I write:

ตั้งแต่เรื่องนั้นเกิดขึ้น อุปนิสัย(ของ)ผมแย่ลง

It's correct. But I will give you an alternative sentence.

ตั้งแต่เกิดเรื่องนั้นขึ้น อุปนิสัยของผมก็แย่ลง

You would often hear sentences like these on the news ;

เกิดการฆาตกรรมขึ้นที่บ้านเลขที่.....

เกิดเหตุไฟไหม้ในห้างดัง....

I was also wondering about the prefix อุป I've seen it before in the word for obstacle อุปสรรค what does the prefix mean?

อุป is used with words from Pali and Sansakrit, a prefix conveying the meaning of 'over', 'above', 'near', 'close', 'beyond', 'deputy'.

[CSS]

To test my comprehension I'll try using the example but changing the subject to the first person. I'll keep the sentence intentionally general/vague. As it seems to me that I shouldn't say ดูดีขื้น about myself could I write:

ตั้งแต่เรื่องนั้นเกิดขึ้น อุปนิสัย(ของ)ผมแย่ลง

It's correct. But I will give you an alternative sentence.

ตั้งแต่เกิดเรื่องนั้นขึ้น อุปนิสัยของผมก็แย่ลง

You would often hear sentences like these on the news ;

เกิดการฆาตกรรมขึ้นที่บ้านเลขที่.....

เกิดเหตุไฟไหม้ในห้างดัง....

I was also wondering about the prefix อุป I've seen it before in the word for obstacle อุปสรรค what does the prefix mean?

อุป is used with words from Pali and Sansakrit, a prefix conveying the meaning of 'over', 'above', 'near', 'close', 'beyond', 'deputy'.

Thanks Yoot. It's the help I need. I still need to work lots on my word order and sentence construction when writing (and probably when speaking too).

Edited May 25, 2007 by CSS

[LookSaMoon]

การคิด = thinking พมขีเกียจในเรื่องการคิด "I am lazy when it comes to thinking"

ITR

should say ผมขี้เกียจคิด

[LookSaMoon]

คนเราจะมีสุข หรือ ไม่มีสุข มันอยู่ที่ใจ

คนเราจะมีความสุข หรือ ไม่มีความสุข มันอยู่ที่ใจ

should say คนเราจะสุขหรือทุกข์มันอยู่ที่ใจ

[LookSaMoon]

I like this topic. It's really useful.

[CSS]

I've recently heard the words ต่างหาก used in contexts that I can't quite box in well enough to use myself. Lexitron dictionary gives the definition as:

ต่างหาก [ADV] separately; independently; on one's own; on the contrary; far from it

Ant. รวม.

Def. อีกส่วนหนึ่ง, อีกแผนกหนึ่ง.

With an example sentence of:

เขาแยกบ้านไปอยู่ต่างหากกับเมียของเขา

I understand it in the context of the example sentence but I seem to have heard the word used in situations like, "not only did I have to drive my motorbike to Mae Sai, but it rained too." ต่างหาก seems to be playing the role of "too." (I can´t think of the actual sentence I heard, so this one is my own construction.)

Would it also be usable in situations where we would use the word "to boot"/moreover/in addition to. eg. He's rich and handsome to boot.

[meadish_sweetball]

It can be used as you say, where 'too', 'to boot', 'moreover' are English equivalents (and then the construction in this case will be 'iik taang haak' tagged on at the end), but also to convey the notion instead/'contrary to what you think' (without a preceding 'iik').

[CSS]

It can be used as you say, where 'too', 'to boot', 'moreover' are English equivalents (and then the construction in this case will be 'iik taang haak' tagged on at the end), but also to convey the notion instead/'contrary to what you think' (without a preceding 'iik').

Thanks Meadish. You pinned what was confusing me, that it also could convey the notion of instead/contrary to what you think. That the former had an iik and the latter didn't is what I needed to know. Now that you've pointed it out I can think back to hearing the iik in the former and not in the latter.