Puppy Play-fighting

[Cyberstar]

Hi,

I have two Tsih Tzu puppies now 11 weeks old. Although, I have a couple of successes in raising puppies, this is the first time I have more than one dog at the same time. Like all other healthy puppies, they have fighting as number one among favorite passtimes. Allthough it's clear that their fights are just for play, it is also clear that they put their full powers and abilities behind attacks and defenses - no mercy is one rule and never give in is another. One is a male and one is a female and it doesn't appear like they're fighting to determine who is supposed to be the overdog. They seem to have an equal share of turns of being the aggressor and of being the one that's first down on the back, struggling to get up again - which he/she eventually does whereafter it's the other one's turn to get down .... So - all in all: things doesn't appear as anything else but two natural puppies helping each other to become strong survivers.

However, lately their bites have become strong enough to inflict true pain on tender parts - the whines and cryes are getting louder and more frequent. If they continue this playfighting with their full strenghts, it can only be a matter of a few weeks before a heel or an ear is severily damaged.

So my question is: Will they naturally moderate themselves as not to harm each other? Or do I have to teach them that fighting is not allowed?

They're fast learners, that do recognize and respect their master and they understand when a break order has been issued ... (Well, when they the see my attention move elsewhere, they get going again - which they're allowed). Thus, I don't think it would be to difficulty to prevent them from fighting if that should be the only way - but I'd prefer to just let their nature adjust itself if that's what it will do.

[bina]

let them be.... the cries are more a way of letting the other dog know that he/she is giving in; its usually not from actual pain (even that terrible screaming that puppies do if scared or even see a large adult dog )... it reminds the other dog that the screamer is still a puppy and elicits care behavior. in this case there is no mother to intervene so u can or not as u wish...

try diversion: throw a few tennis balls (two dogs, five toys. there's always one dog who hoards/hogs the toys);

in long run, the male will give in to the female when going to eat, etc (usually); male /female fights very very rarely end up with damage; just lots of saliva and fur and noise.

dont know when shitzus grow up; boxers never do. some dogs grow up after the "terrible twos" which usually happens at 8 months for regualr size dogs (they test all boundries, ignore u, regress in any training/education theyve mastered til then, eat your shoes, etc.). very large dogs take a longer time to mature both physically and mentally. small/toy dogs i have no real experience.

[November Rain]

In general, Bina's reply is spot on. I'd just like to add a little note, though. Although, 99.9% of the time, these are natural play reactions & ways of learning for pups, keep an eye on them. In our dog center, we have 2 separate pairs of siblings, who discovered, during their adolescence, that they hated each other. One pair had a fight so bad that one of them hit her head & suffered such severe trauma that she was in a coma for 2 weeks & now has mild retardation.

Having said that, it is very rare, & out of the countless pups we've had, there have only been those 2 pairs that have needed to be seperated. And every single one of the pups have had the play fights. Don't worry about the noise, in general the noise is just for effect!

[bina]

November, interesting. never really seen that among siblings that were raised with their dams only in pups that were taken too young/found pups. or among mates when kenneld.

pups 'hating' other pups siblings: rare but:

orphaned or prematurely weaned pups lack socialization skills that they LEARN (not instinctive) from the dam and/or other adults. abberrant behavior patterns are usually found in these dogs although not always: inappropriate reactions to play/fight, submissive/dominance behaviors, fear/curiousity responses, etc...i.e. they dont know boundries to distinguish between play/real fights.

most pups dont HATE eachother. that's our perception only, hard to know if they hate something: they can fear, dislike and/or dispaly avoidence behavior, or attack due to fear or lack of appropriate response to submissive/dominance signals- but also, shelters are usually a high stress environment and some pups react with fear aggression, and sublimate it on sibling or mate rather than on older dog (or person), as someone on the board once asked about his dog aggressing one of his other dogs constantly after being hassled by dogs outside the fence.

i doubt this is the case with the shitzus; also, if u side with one, u will have to side with the more dominant of the two and try not to interfere too much as they will i.d. your presence with /stopping starting fights. try ignoring/diversions so as to not reinforce the fighting (your attention to the fighting is negative reinforcment to their fights; an attention getter. )

also, remember, a good dog is a tired dog: anti up their excersice/play times; make sure the aggression doesnt spill over into food guarding etc, and whatever u do, DO NOT PULL ONE OFF OF THE OTHER!! THAT MEANS U ARE ALREADY, AT THAT AGE, CHOOSING SIDES. YOU MUST ACT LIKE A DAM: so,IF u separate them: do it like a mother would: scruff of neck TO BOTH two hands needed for this, shake, pin down on ground for a second and release and ignore, or snarl at them (knock it off, whatever) as an adult dog would when sick of puppy shenanigans.

and respect the fact thtat althought small dogs, they do have very sharp teeth.

forgot to add: at that age, correct, submission dominance, although developed within three days of birth (breeders can tell thru a special test which dogs will be dominant/passive etc in these three days and also based on which teat they nurse from ) will have to be constantly reasserted, and tested, and environment (your house) can effect the way they see themselves so they play fight to resolve over and over their place with eachother.

especially if u got the two more dominant siblings together and not one at each end of the spectrum... plus, two pups together means they will pay less attention to you/

bina

[November Rain]

bina,

you could be right about the fact that these pups weren't raised with their mother long enough. Both sets were brought in as very sick young pups, so that could have been a factor. And you are definitely right that all of the pups who have been brought in with & raised by their mum have been fine with their siblings. Funnily enough, I've successfully hand-reared 2 sets of orphaned pups & they were fine with their siblings too. Perhaps they thought I was "mum"? I still have 2 of them, they're 9 months old now & they are extremely affectionate to me & to each other. In fact, they're both under the computer desk at my feet now.

[bina]

if u hand reared them then they see u as mom and hand reared pups will see u as an alpha family member so u, in affect, socialized them... with dogs the critical age is 6-8 weeks which is close to the age when they start to be weaned /mother weans them, and they would start to interact more with other dogs, therefore needing to learn doggy social skills for life in the real world.

[Mossfinn]

My two Chihuahua's play fight all the time, sometimes one kicks it off and sometimes the other.

But it would appear that there is a considerable amount of bullying going on by the male approx 19 months old against the female approx 12 months old, if it is important I will check the exact dates I can never remember, and particularly at eating times the little one will defer and unless we intervene will actually get nothing.

So when it happens and it doesn't happen all the time we just separate them into separate rooms.

Is the bullying ( what appears to me to be bullying ) normal?

Sometimes the male will just attack and the female just cowers, although there is no serious teeth on show.

Will they grow out of it?

Great thread by the way, never thought to separate them equally by the scruff of the next, just pulled the dog of the female when it got excessive.

As you can tell, new to dog ownership.

Good Luck

Moss

[bina]

my male boxer was very very dominant inside the house, bossing our veteran bitch boxer (although same age, he came to us later) by just lifting a lip or moving an eyebrow. he would put her in my daughter's room (she would slink in to the room, grovelling and licking her lips in a puppy pose, the pose that elicits care taking frm an adult and deters agression from them) and eat from both bowls , and then lay in front of one bowl (passive body block showing dominance) and wait. after a few minutes, he would 'permit' her to leave the room and come and eat just by shifting his weight so that he lay in a more relaxed pose.

he used to seriously beat her up, often resulting in a nipped ear or lip, and lots of salive and noise. when that happened, any children in the room knew to go to an other room or move out of the way to avoid being bitten by accident. w/o our intervention, this stopped as we learned to greet him first feed him first, etc... and IGNORE the fighting for the most part ...

since they were (nero is RIP) both large dogs, we never tried to pry one off the other, but if needed used vocal commands (go to your places-- each dog had his/her own box/bed).

with time, these fights lessened. we used diversion techniques such as ringing the door bell, or moving to an other room, or openeing the fridge, in which case the male would release, the bitch would slink off, and that was that. no reward, no punishment.

we kept about twenty toys around the house to prevent the hogging/guarding objects problem.

we kept the food bowls filled with their dry food self feed to avoid the food guarding problem.

we only gave treats to the dog that worked for it: nero, play dead, treat. nala, speak . treat. , no tossed food bits where they would have to scrabble for them.

outside the house however, it was the bitch who decided what where when etc.

both dogs no dominance issues with children or adults .

nero became more aggressive towards the bitch on days when he was less excersised, rainy day doldrums, or when people hadnt been in the house all day.

at night, they slept together on the sofa, watched tv together, had to walk together, and the bitch constantly searched for him when we finally euthenized him after long illness. she also cleaned him (yes everywhere), and they both played very nicely together and she usually won the play fights, and the better sleeping spot on the sofa.

better not to drag the male off the female and let her sort it out... they do tend to grow out of it, it could be a sort of 'ego' thing, that should taper off as they mature, get older, try several feed bowls or self feed (dry food all the time in two different areas, put the water bowl in neutral territory away from both food bowls.

the scruff of the neck thing works only on young and teenage pups. it is unwise and fairly inaffective to do that to an adult dog. u will get bitten. try dropping a large book near them, or scraping a chair. it tends to make the both of them forget what they are doing now and look up to see what the NOISE was...

dont obsess too much... dogs tend to sort things out by themselves.

bina

[Mossfinn]

he used to seriously beat her up, often resulting in a nipped ear or lip, and lots of salive and noise. when that happened, any children in the room knew to go to an other room or move out of the way to avoid being bitten by accident. w/o our intervention, this stopped as we learned to greet him first feed him first, etc... and IGNORE the fighting for the most part ...

since they were (nero is RIP) both large dogs, we never tried to pry one off the other, but if needed used vocal commands (go to your places-- each dog had his/her own box/bed).

Blimey, nothing as bad as this. But they do have their own beds, but Leo likes Sadie's bed, but in the morning sadie always has it back.

They do understand certain vocal commands and will stop if you clap or make a distracting noise.

with time, these fights lessened. we used diversion techniques such as ringing the door bell, or moving to an other room, or openeing the fridge, in which case the male would release, the bitch would slink off, and that was that. no reward, no punishment.

Yes, exactly what happens, although the fights are yet to lessen.

we kept about twenty toys around the house to prevent the hogging/guarding objects problem.

Do not do this, will put this into action.

we kept the food bowls filled with their dry food self feed to avoid the food guarding problem.

We do this, the guarding comes when there is a treat, like Chicken.

we only gave treats to the dog that worked for it: nero, play dead, treat. nala, speak . treat. , no tossed food bits where they would have to scrabble for them.

Yes, do this to.

outside the house however, it was the bitch who decided what where when etc.

Funny enough, there is no bullying outside the house.

both dogs no dominance issues with children or adults .

They go mad when anybody enters the house and almost uncontrollable outside ( for a Chi' that is ) when they meet a dog or human.

Leo has particular problem with children and has snapped at them, but whether he would actually put pressure into the bite I am not sure?

nero became more aggressive towards the bitch on days when he was less excersised, rainy day doldrums, or when people hadnt been in the house all day.

Have no evidence of this.

at night, they slept together on the sofa, watched tv together, had to walk together, and the bitch constantly searched for him when we finally euthenized him after long illness. she also cleaned him (yes everywhere), and they both played very nicely together and she usually won the play fights, and the better sleeping spot on the sofa.

Yes, sleep together on the sofa all the time, Sadie paricularly likes anything soft to lie on.

Funilly enough, Leo cleans Sadie all the time.

better not to drag the male off the female and let her sort it out... they do tend to grow out of it, it could be a sort of 'ego' thing, that should taper off as they mature, get older, try several feed bowls or self feed (dry food all the time in two different areas, put the water bowl in neutral territory away from both food bowls.

Understand.

the scruff of the neck thing works only on young and teenage pups. it is unwise and fairly inaffective to do that to an adult dog. u will get bitten. try dropping a large book near them, or scraping a chair. it tends to make the both of them forget what they are doing now and look up to see what the NOISE was...

Understand

dont obsess too much... dogs tend to sort things out by themselves.

O.K but this is hard, they are great pets,

bina

Great post, thank you bina, I much appreciate it.

Good Luck

Moss

Edit by Moss. The last couple of replies appear to have copied your emphasis, I didn't mean to underline or put in bold.

[bina]

We do this, the guarding comes when there is a treat, like Chicken.

dont give treats, or give first to the dominant one, and make him work for it first, he cant have an other one. give the otherone its treat after doing something while the first one sits quietly by. and make sure the first one does sit quietly by. for this stuff u may need someone to actually show u... bit hard to do over the net. (pay my ticket ill come out tomorrow )

actually its more worrying the people aggression,

yes they are dinky animals but would u let your boxer snap at a child???

poeple aggression MUST BE TAKEN CARE OF IMMEDIATELY....

i cant help u with that long distance... there is NIENKE who i think is in chiang mai? somewher e up north, try pm'ng him directly...

dont wonder whether the dog could make teeth marks. on a baby's finger it is still hospital and tetnus and antibiotic shots if it s a neighbor's child.

if however they are not good with the rough handling of a child (they are small dogs, and somehwat more breakable and it takes less handling to cause pain) then control childrens' access to the dogs.

teach the kids that when sadie and friend are in their beds, LEAVE THEM ALONE.

teach the kids not to approach the dogs unless they want to play with a toy/go for a walk .

teach the dogs to be petted everywhere on their bodies including balls, ears etc. (do this slowly, not for long periods of time each time, make it pleasant and relaxed and reward with tidbits or playtime toys or a walk directly after the pet session. start by petting only on the back and sides, gradually add petting the chest, stomach face, ears, rump and lastly the genital area -start by cupping gently the testes -if he is intact- and not for more than a minute. stop before the dog becomes upset and u will see eventually he will enjoy being handled all over. however, this does not mean kids should grab his balls or ears, only that he will be less likely to react if they do grab, and kids DO grab balls and ear of dogs. and then get bitten.

teach the kids how to pet and play with small dogs, gently. do not allow small babies who grab or poke, have access to the dogs, w/o adult supervision, even if it means putting the dogs in an other room. do not leave a baby on the floor with the dogs even if they are dinky dogs. the dog does not know he is miniature and still acts like a dog.

never underestimate a small dog, it is still a dog with teeth and reactions of a dog.

patience, persistance, practice and consistency among all family members will help u sort it out.

bina

[Cyberstar]

Thanks for the advices on my now 12 weeks old shih tzu puppies.

I've now been observing the rascals for about a week with those tips in mind. The one about "never pull one dog off the other, when play-fighting" does explain some occasional dis-obeydiance from the female. On the other hand: I see no signs on things like bullying, toy hoarding, protectionism, sublimated attention needs nor any dominance-behaviour at all. Occasionally a bit of jalousy-behaviour shows (the one on the floor barking and snapping at the one on the lap). However, the commands "Kendo/Kitty! Quiet!" and "Kendo/Kitty! Sit!" makes the culprit sit nice, quiet and patiently waiting his/hers turn.

I think the puppies' almost "unnatural" good manners towards each other are owed to the circumstance that their conditions are close to ideal. They're members of a four-pack with my wife and I as the adult members. We're running an Internet Cafe, which has a natural enclosure (20 sqm + a small kitchen) within wich the pups spend about 90% of their daytime (8 am to about 10 pm) together with at least one of the adults (and 2/3 of the time with both). The nighttime they spend alone but it seems they sleep the whole night through, exept for an occasional visit to the newspaper in a corner of the kitchen. An internet cafe has the advantage that customers mainly take care of themselves, so there's plenty of time to pay attention to the dogs... Once in a while one or the other dog feels it has been too long without human interaction, which then is requested and received merely by sitting quietly near the chair and look at us.

The female is 'her dog' and the male is 'his dog' which is reflected in that we both tend a bit more to our respective dog than to the other one - but basically we treat them equally. The dogs seem to have recognized and accepted this discrimination. Particularly the male has made me the choosen one. Nevertheless, not even here is there any kind of protectionism - the male shows no sign of distemper if i take the female on my lap (first) and similar for the female when my wife take the male on her lap, except for the mentioned rare jalousy (4-5 times throughout their lifetime).

No hoarding of toys: they've got plenty of toys which lies scattered all over the floor and are used/shared/fought about in a completely arbitrary manner. As for beds there's a variety: one basket (shared until lately, but now too small to be comfortable for both of them together) one flat pillow, two door mats. Also these are interchanged beween them in a completely arbitrary manner (most of the time they just sleep on the bare floor). As for food: they share one of these rectangular things with two square departments, where they eat side by side, occationally changing side (for the variation I suppose). Absolutely no fighting or blocking.

During their playfighting they continuusly change roles. There never seems to be a distinct winner. The female is a heavier 3.3 kg vs. 2.7, but the male is fastest (they both know all the sneaky tricks, though). Lately they've learned to get up and down stairs, which the male was the first to master, followed by the female a day later. Now, a flight of stairs has been included in their enclosure - which they each take their turns of chasing the other one up and down of.

I have one problem with them, though. Our shophouse sits right onto a medium traficked citystreet. Any good ideas on how to teach puppies about traffic rules? They are familiar with the outside and have learned to do their business at the edge of the very street itself (in a leash , of course). There's a real sidewalk and we have a frontporch where they enjoy sitting (leashed) and watch the traffic and saying hello to people walking by (not to mention, blocking the feet of our customers)... At this moment of time of they are way too eager to run across the street to say hello to people and dogs over there (which they've never been across, except carried) to let them loose without a leash. Does it have to remain so?

[bina]

im a believer in leashes but u can teach your dog not to cross roads without a signal from u; its part of heeling training and 'wait' training. my bitch learned that when we came down the steps towards the main road, she must sit first. when a dog sits, it cant run, so that already helps. other then that, hard to teach which is why so many dogs are hit by cars. if they are much loved pups, keep them leashed/fenced until they are older and not as likely to dash off somewhere, or take your chances. some dogs learn some dont. some is learned behavior from other dogs also, or children. all the children run to thte side of the road when a car comes so the dogs run also. dogs learn to cross roads at people crossings too! (they see the change from one light or shape to an other and learn that one light/shape means cross and the other means wait.)

try googling for training tips/ maybe even the shiztu sites might have their own 'training your shitzu' which is breed specific (some breeds need special attention to things: boxers bore fast, dobies catch on quickly, herding types are more difficult when training for heeling for instance.