Scottish independence case helped by "Brexit chaos" - Sturgeon

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Scottish independence case helped by "Brexit chaos" - Sturgeon

By Elisabeth O'Leary

 

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon speaks on the 20th anniversary of Scotland voting to establish its own Parliament, in Edinburgh, Britain, September 11, 2017. REUTERS/Russell Cheyne

 

EDINBURGH (Reuters) - Britain's struggles to chart a way out of the European Union are boosting the case for Scottish independence, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said on Sunday, but she shied away from committing to a date for another referendum vote.

 

Scotland rejected independence by a 10 percentage point margin in a 2014 vote, and polls indicate that support for it has not shifted significantly since then.

 

"We will consider the (independence referendum) timing again when we have more clarity on what we face," Sturgeon said, speaking as her Scottish National Party (SNP) began a three-day conference in Glasgow.

 

"People watch the chaos that is engulfing the UK right now and people look ahead and see the damage that is likely to be done by this unfolding disaster that is not just Brexit but this incompetent and chaotic approach to Brexitbeing presided over by (Conservative Prime Minister) Theresa May," she told the BBC.

 

"I think the case for Scotland's future in Scotland's hands (...) is becoming greater and stronger by the day."

 

Sturgeon, who heads the devolved Scottish government, saw her party lose more than one third of its seats in Britain's June election after it mistimed a push for another vote on secession. It subsequently put the plan on hold.

 

Brexit has put the union of the UK's four nations under strain because Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain while Wales and the larger England voted to leave.

 

Britain's main parties are fighting over what new relationship is needed with the bloc after 40 years of shared trade and politics. May has seen her authority over the Conservatives erode since a June's snap election in which she lost her parliamentary majority.

 

That means Britain still has a choice over the shape of its future trading relations, Sturgeon argued.

 

"I believe so, so strongly, not for ideological reasons but for hard practical reasons, it would be an act of monumental folly for the UK to come out of the single market."

 

(Reporting by Elisabeth O'Leary and Paul Sandle; Editing by Keith Weir)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-10-09

[RuamRudy]

The problem that has to be overcome by the nationalists is that there is a hardcore of people in Scotland who see Queen and country as paramount. That the Tories saw a resurgence in numbers of MPs is indicative of the sort of mentality they have - the "cut their nose off to spite their face" mentality. For them, being in a rapidly declining joke of a country with an increasingly authoritarian, unrepresentative government lurching from crisis to self made crisis is better than Scottish independence because of a battle several hundred years ago, which few fully understand today, and a bankrupted football club, no longer in existence. 

 

This was evident most recently, with many Scots lining up to pour scorn over the new Queensferry Crossing, or the regular polls that show a worrying minority of Scots who want to abolish Holyrood and return all deferred powers to London.

Edited October 9, 2017 by RuamRudy

[overherebc]

And here is me thinking 'seaweed' had gone away.

The proverbial bad penny.

[i claudius]

Lets face it if there was a referendum for Scotish independance again , but this time held in England they would more than likely get it. And no i dont dislike Scotish people.Although Sturgeon is a bit of a wally

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[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, i claudius said:

Lets face it if there was a referendum for Scotish independance again , but this time held in England they would more than likely get it. And no i dont dislike Scotish people.Although Sturgeon is a bit of a wally
 

 

I am glad to see that you recognise that the Scottish independence movement is not a slight against those from whom we seek separation. This lot agree with us too:

 

 

[thaihome]

Well, if you have ever already shot yourself in one foot, why not shoot the other one as well. ?

TH 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, thaihome said:

Well, if you have ever already shot yourself in one foot, why not shoot the other one as well. ?

TH 

Well, we can hope that, in the event of a second referendum, we don't make the same massive mistake again. 

[dunroaming]

So would it be fair to say that without Brexit the Scots wouldn't be considering a second referendum or is this more about Sturgeon's way of reviving the old independence chestnut?

[citybiker]

Oh dear, despite the SNP being given a bloody nose with losing seats in the last GE this thorn in the side of indyref2 topic is like man flu, over exacerbated by journalists and using Brexit as root cause blame.

Agreed, the Brexit talks are challenging, not going completely as many thought but stating the indyref case is stronger is total tosh, the SNP need to focus on getting a grip on domestic issues, Swinney’s speech yesterday was pathetic beyond belief.

Excuse my terminology but utter dross.


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[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Oh dear, despite the SNP being given a bloody nose with losing seats in the last GE this thorn in the side of indyref2 topic is like man flu, over exacerbated by journalists and using Brexit as root cause blame.

Agreed, the Brexit talks are challenging, not going completely as many thought but stating the indyref case is stronger is total tosh, the SNP need to focus on getting a grip on domestic issues, Swinney’s speech yesterday was pathetic beyond belief.

Excuse my terminology but utter dross.


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The achievement of the SNP in 2015 GE was, to any sensible evaluation, wholly untenable moving forward. Of course, it was regrettable that some fine MPs lost their seats, to be replaced by political minnows who, regardless of your political affiliations, let us all down through their lack of intellectual rigour or critical thinking abilities.

 

But for the drubbing that some refer to, it is worth bearing in mind that even with this 'bloody nose', they still have more MPs than all other parties combined - and that is after 10 years in power. Similarly, they continue to enjoy a near majority in Holyrood under a system that was designed to prevent such a possibility occurring. 

 

The SNP won the majority of Scottish WM seats, and their control of Holyrood, with a manifesto that stated that they would pursue a second independence referendum if key promises from the 2014 referendum were not met. Those promises have not been met - undeniably, the SNP has an electorally backed mandate to push through with indyref2.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

So would it be fair to say that without Brexit the Scots wouldn't be considering a second referendum or is this more about Sturgeon's way of reviving the old independence chestnut?

The prospect of a second referendum if Brexit was rejected by Scots but forced upon them was a clear manifesto pledge of the SNP,  which saw them win a near majority in Holyrood and the majority of Scottish WM seats. It is therefore incumbent upon the SNP, that they fulfill their manifesto pledge. How things would have played out had this rubicon not been crossed is mere conjecture. But imagine the howls of anger that would have emanated from middle England had DC not allowed the Brexit vote, having pledged it in the Tories' 2015 election manifesto?

[Stargeezr]

Long live Scotland, I hope they have happiness some day. My ancestors are from there and

England, and I hope to go visit both places soon

Geezer

[i claudius]

19 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Well, we can hope that, in the event of a second referendum, we don't make the same massive mistake again. 

There will not be a second vote ,no matter how much some remainers want one , 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, i claudius said:

There will not be a second vote ,no matter how much some remainers want one , 

Well our government had a clear mandate to call for one - voted for by the public in 2015 and again in 2017.

But if it is denied then so be it - it shows the sham of this union of supposed equals. 

 

[Baerboxer]

On 10/9/2017 at 9:22 AM, RuamRudy said:

The problem that has to be overcome by the nationalists is that there is a hardcore of people in Scotland who see Queen and country as paramount. That the Tories saw a resurgence in numbers of MPs is indicative of the sort of mentality they have - the "cut their nose off to spite their face" mentality. For them, being in a rapidly declining joke of a country with an increasingly authoritarian, unrepresentative government lurching from crisis to self made crisis is better than Scottish independence because of a battle several hundred years ago, which few fully understand today, and a bankrupted football club, no longer in existence. 

 

This was evident most recently, with many Scots lining up to pour scorn over the new Queensferry Crossing, or the regular polls that show a worrying minority of Scots who want to abolish Holyrood and return all deferred powers to London.

 

Of course, denigrate those with differing political views. 

 

Are you really suggesting, all SNP supporters are papist Celtic supporters of Irish ethnicity who came to Scotland to escape the poverty in their own country following their loss at the Boyne? You'll be claiming the catholic fanatic and drunken woman beater Mel Gibson to be a serious historian next!

 

Perhaps some people think of themselves as British, although proud Scots, and don't wan't a minority group of rebels to dictate to them that they're gonna have to change their nationality. And perhaps many former SNP supporters are leaving because they don't like the job the SNP have been doing and no longer want to be driven in that direction?

 

 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Well our government had a clear mandate to call for one - voted for by the public in 2015 and again in 2017.

But if it is denied then so be it - it shows the sham of this union of supposed equals. 

 

 

No it shows that the country is governed by the government at Westminster in the interests of the UK. Not by a regional parliament trying to act beyond its powers for self interest of a very few.

[citybiker]

 
No it shows that the country is governed by the government at Westminster in the interests of the UK. Not by a regional parliament trying to act beyond its powers for self interest of a very few.

Valid point, the SNP comes under the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom as it voted to remain ‘part of the Union’.

SNP claiming Brexit was forced, unfortunately SG or Sturgeon are consistently seeking excuses to raise and challenge Westminster on Indyref, just because it’s your pledge or policy they lost.


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[i claudius]

Well our government had a clear mandate to call for one - voted for by the public in 2015 and again in 2017.
But if it is denied then so be it - it shows the sham of this union of supposed equals. 
 

You lost get over it

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[RuamRudy]

 

Lots of perhapses and suppositions there - and a clear lack of understanding in Scottish politics and the Scottish people.

 

17 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

Of course, denigrate those with differing political views. 

 

Not at all - read again, and try to understand my point. I did not characterize all British Nationalists as being the blood and soil type, however there is a significant number who would prefer a weak and oppressive WM government to a Scottish alternative, even when the damage being done by the Tories is as plain as day.

 

18 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

e you really suggesting, all SNP supporters are papist Celtic supporters of Irish ethnicity who came to Scotland to escape the poverty in their own country following their loss at the Boyne? You'll be claiming the catholic fanatic and drunken woman beater Mel Gibson to be a serious historian next!

Again, you missed the point. Is it clearer now? Does the English Scots for Yes banner not even give you a clue?

 

18 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Perhaps some people think of themselves as British, although proud Scots, 

 Of course there are - and they are perfectly entitled to their point of view. 

 

18 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

nd don't wan't a minority group of rebels to dictate to them that they're gonna have to change their nationality. And perhaps many former SNP supporters are leaving because they don't like the job the SNP have been doing and no longer want to be driven in that direction?

Again, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of Scottish politics, but if you insist on ignoring the democratic fact that the SNP still wipes the floor with the opposition, let's just agree that a minority of rebels has destroyed the UK in Europe. 

 

As for the SNP's performance - show me a better run area in the UK and I will listen. 

[RuamRudy]

15 hours ago, citybiker said:

Valid point, the SNP comes under the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom as it voted to remain ‘part of the Union’.

SNP claiming Brexit was forced, unfortunately SG or Sturgeon are consistently seeking excuses to raise and challenge Westminster on Indyref, just because it’s your pledge or policy they lost.


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Not just because of SNP policy - but because the overwhelming majority of Scots saw sense and voted to remain in the EU.

[citybiker]

Not just because of SNP policy - but because the overwhelming majority of Scots saw sense and voted to remain in the EU.

And the overwhelming majority of Scots saw sense in remaining in the U.K. thus accepting the whole U.K. is leaving the EU no matter how much Sturgeon et al use any excuse to blame Brexit.

Overall and lastly, the SNP have no choice but keep rementioning indyref occasionally (especially at conference period) to appease the hardcore radical SNP minority.




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[RuamRudy]

And the overwhelming majority of Scots saw sense in remaining in the U.K. thus accepting the whole U.K. is leaving the EU no matter how much Sturgeon et al use any excuse to blame Brexit.

Overall and lastly, the SNP have no choice but keep rementioning indyref occasionally (especially at conference period) to appease the hardcore radical SNP minority.




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I feel that we are going round in circles here, which is frustrating because there is nothing complicated in what I am trying to explain. But I shall persevere...

One of the many lies used by the British Nationalists during the independence referendum was that the only way Scotland could stay in the EU was to vote no. EU membership is something that Scots clearly see as important, and it arguable that this particular scare story swayed opinion.

Subsequently, in both the 2015 and 2017 general elections, where, on both occasions the SNP wiped the floor with the opposition, they campaigned on a platform of demanding a second referendum if Scots were dragged out of Europe against their will.

SNP support is on the ascension and the Tory renaissance has proven to be, thankfully, a shameful blip on our national character as they have slumped to third place in Scottish polls.

As I have said already, the SNP has a clear mandate - as the following shows, much more than Cameron had for allowing the folly of Brexit:





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[evadgib]

Grab yer popcorn...

 

Dear Evadgib,

Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – "Another Scottish independence referendum should not be allowed to happen".

https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/180642

The debate is scheduled for 13 November 2017.

Once the debate has happened, we'll email you a video and transcript.

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

[evadgib]

Dear Evadgib,

Parliament debated the petition you signed – "Another Scottish independence referendum should not be allowed to happen"

Watch the debate: http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/4f1a9acc-4b0a-4142-b89a-d623b580f839

Read the transcript: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2017-11-13/debates/42449346-E2BE-4429-921B-3F72D50E27B9/ReferendumOnScottishIndependence

Read the transcript: https://researchbriefings.intranet.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CDP-2017-0219

The petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/180642

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

Edited November 15, 2017 by evadgib

[Dagnabbit]

Long live Scotland, I hope they have happiness some day. My ancestors are from there and
England, and I hope to go visit both places soon
Geezer

Having never been to Scotland, what makes you think they aren't happy there?

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