CRS form from HSBC

[ThaiPauly]

Would that mean that I would have to pay tax in Thailand on the property I own and  rent out in the UK?

 

I already pay tax on this as the rental income exceeds the 11,600 pa, the base rate for paying income tax.

So would I have to pay tax twice?

 

I am confused !!

[Mattd]

13 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

Would that mean that I would have to pay tax in Thailand on the property I own and  rent out in the UK?

 

I already pay tax on this as the rental income exceeds the 11,600 pa, the base rate for paying income tax.

So would I have to pay tax twice?

 

I am confused !!

You should not have to pay tax twice on this income.

[rockingrobin]

59 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

Would that mean that I would have to pay tax in Thailand on the property I own and  rent out in the UK?

 

I already pay tax on this as the rental income exceeds the 11,600 pa, the base rate for paying income tax.

So would I have to pay tax twice?

 

I am confused !!

This would be covered in the DTT .

[orientalist]

19 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Some inputs:

 

Here's the actual Thai tax code in English: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37748.0.html

 

Regarding pensions: by means of tax treaties, the UK and US both disallow other countries from taxing Social Security and State Pension payments.

 

Number 8 on the link: refers to non-taxable income by virtue of non-residency (<180 days). 

 

Looking at the UK summary of the double taxation treaty, it seems crystal clear that "there is no relief for state pension" (as opposed to government pensions).

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/538047/Digest_of_Double_Taxation_Treaties.pdf

 

[simoh1490]

35 minutes ago, orientalist said:

 

Looking at the UK summary of the double taxation treaty, it seems crystal clear that "there is no relief for state pension" (as opposed to government pensions).

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/538047/Digest_of_Double_Taxation_Treaties.pdf

 

I see what's written there but something's not quite right somewhere, I am certain that UK state pension cannot be taxed by other countries - I shall need to do some research on this and will come back.

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, orientalist said:

 

Looking at the UK summary of the double taxation treaty, it seems crystal clear that "there is no relief for state pension" (as opposed to government pensions).

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/538047/Digest_of_Double_Taxation_Treaties.pdf

 

According to the HMRC , the state pension unlike occupational pensions is not derived from employment , and thus not an employment derived income , for double tax treaty purposes. 

It is unclear to me , under thai revenue code which part if any of the assessable income it falls within.

[KittenKong]

On 16/11/2017 at 2:02 PM, simoh1490 said:

I am certain that UK state pension cannot be taxed by other countries

 

With some exceptions (notably EU membership) other countries can basically tax what they like how they like. That is how sovereignty works and it's not up to the UK to decide what other countries do. DTTs are designed to moderate the effect of this.

Edited November 18, 2017 by KittenKong

[KittenKong]

On 16/11/2017 at 1:24 PM, orientalist said:

Looking at the UK summary of the double taxation treaty, it seems crystal clear that "there is no relief for state pension" (as opposed to government pensions).

 

This is true but if you are taxed in Thailand on your UK state pension then you can apply for foreign tax relief in the UK, so normally you will not be taxed twice on state pension income. There are two ways of applying for foreign tax relief, depending on whether you are UK non-resident or not.

 

https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/taxed-twice

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

With some exceptions (notably EU membership) other countries can basically tax what they like how they like. That is how sovereignty works and it's not up to the UK to decide what other countries do.

Yes I've been looking at this aspect very recently and you're right, for some reason, I'd got it into my head that US and UK state pension/social security payments were not allowed to be taxed by other countries. I think in part my misunderstanding comes from the UK where tax treaties forbid the US to withhold tax on SSc payments paid to UK resident citizens who are ex-US green card holders, aka, moi!

[ThaiPauly]

Bad news for me.

 

Even with my relationship manager battling for my side HSBC will not let this go, even though I have pointed out that Thailand has not signed up for CRS. They have suggested I hire a tax advisor at my expense of course.

 

I am resigned to going to get a TIN from the tax office today, but then should  I send them that and my NI number or will that confuse things even more?

[simoh1490]

I didn't even bother trying to fight this one, I sent them my TIN by registered mail.

[partington]

4 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

Bad news for me.

 

Even with my relationship manager battling for my side HSBC will not let this go, even though I have pointed out that Thailand has not signed up for CRS. They have suggested I hire a tax advisor at my expense of course.

 

I am resigned to going to get a TIN from the tax office today, but then should  I send them that and my NI number or will that confuse things even more?

Send them both.

 

NI identifies you to HMRC, Thai number identifies you to the Thai tax authorities, which may come in useful when they sign up to the CRS in a decade's time once the top 1% of elite here has figured out how to hide their corrupt earnings offshore, and thus agree to sign up to it.  

 

Military Generals are very rich: don't hold your breath.

 

Also if you have any investments at all in the UK or the EU the brokers will shortly be asking you for your NI number as well.  As a result of new Financial Standards regulations across the EU all investment companies must collect this information by January 2018. This is completely distinct from the CRS requirements.

 

Why, when the UK is leaving the EU do they have to accede to EU financial requirements?  We haven't left yet is why. Hopefully we never do, but...

Edited November 24, 2017 by partington

[ThaiPauly]

I got my TIN number today, but they did not want to give me one without a letter from the bank stating why they needed it.

 

Luckily enough I once had a company many years ago in Bangkok.

 

They were able to trace the company and therefore my TIN.

 

What a waste of time and energy.

 

Thanks to all those who have contributed to this thread, especially Partington, you are a very wise man sir!!

[simoh1490]

No doubt about it, Partington is the man to go to for this kind of stuff.

[Samuel Smith]

On 24/11/2017 at 1:58 PM, ThaiPauly said:

I got my TIN number today, but they did not want to give me one without a letter from the bank stating why they needed it.

 

Luckily enough I once had a company many years ago in Bangkok.

 

They were able to trace the company and therefore my TIN.

 

What a waste of time and energy.

 

Thanks to all those who have contributed to this thread, especially Partington, you are a very wise man sir!!

Where in Chiang Mai did you go to get your TIN?

[Mattd]

10 minutes ago, Samuel Smith said:

Where in Chiang Mai did you go to get your TIN?

As the link, lots of them, so need to find out which is applicable to you.

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/38210.0.html

[sicky]

Apologies for raising this somewhat old topic again, but there didn't appear to be a conclusion with regard to HSBC and the request of TINs for those of us who are retired in Thailand without taxable income.  I have just received my CRS form.

 

It seems from this past thread that some have indicated "Reason (c)" was accepted, albeit by Citibank, on the basis that Thailand is not a party of the CRS legislation and therefore cannot require that the TIN is disclosed.  (rwdrwdrwd - I got rebuffed on reason C by Citibank, but after I argued, they admitted they were wrong and allowed it.

 

Can anyone therefore confirm if that has been the case likewise with HSBC?

 

To recap, the choices are:
A. The country where the account holder does not issue TIN's to it's residents

 

B. The account holder is otherwise unable to obtain a TIN or equivalent number (please explain why you are unable to obtain a TIN in the below table if you have selected this reason)

 

C. No  TIN is required (Only select this reason if the authorities of the country of tax residence entered below do not require the TIN to be disclosed)

Thanks.