Work Permit Expired ... Still have Valid Visa

[MaddDog]

Just realized my Work Permit has recently expired but my Visa in my passport is still valid until May 2018.

 

Has my Visa been cancelled due to the Work Permit expiring?  Are they tied up?  My Work Permit wasn't cancelled ... just did't realize it expired and I should have gotten it extended! 

 

Steps to resolve?

Fines? or Problems?

Thanks

[BritTim]

To answer your question, we need to be precise about what you mean by "visa".

If you have an unexpired multiple entry visa issued by a consulate outside Thailand, then the visa, and entries based on it, remain valid until the visa's expiry date.

If, on the other hand, you have an extension of your permission to stay, based on working, that was issued at an immigration office inside Thailand, then the extension ceases to be valid the same day your employment ends. If you are still employed, but the work permit was erroneously not renewed on time, then this needs to be rectified as soon as possible. You should discuss this immediately with your employer. If your employment has ceased, the technically correct action is to take a letter from your employer stating your last date of employment to immigration who will cancel your extension effective from that date. Simpler (if you do not have a reentry permit) is to leave the country by air, and return (preferably after getting a new visa).

[overherebc]

50 minutes ago, BritTim said:

To answer your question, we need to be precise about what you mean by "visa".

If you have an unexpired multiple entry visa issued by a consulate outside Thailand, then the visa, and entries based on it, remain valid until the visa's expiry date.

If, on the other hand, you have an extension of your permission to stay, based on working, that was issued at an immigration office inside Thailand, then the extension ceases to be valid the same day your employment ends. If you are still employed, but the work permit was erroneously not renewed on time, then this needs to be rectified as soon as possible. You should discuss this immediately with your employer. If your employment has ceased, the technically correct action is to take a letter from your employer stating your last date of employment to immigration who will cancel your extension effective from that date. Simpler (if you do not have a reentry permit) is to leave the country by air, and return (preferably after getting a new visa).

Simple question to the OP.

Do you have to leave and re-enter Thailand every 90 days or do you, or your employer report to Imm' office in Thailand every 90 days?

There is a big difference.

[Suradit69]

Another example of when it is very important to understand that there is a fundamental difference between a visa and an extension of stay.

 

Unfortunately some people close their minds to this and insist the terms are interchangeable and that those who make the distinction are engaging in pedantic semantics. It does, in fact, make a significant, practical difference in cases like this.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Suradit69

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

Another example of when it is very important to understand that there is a fundamental difference between a visa and an extension of stay.

 

Unfortunately some people close their minds to this and insist the terms are interchangeable and that those who make the distinction are engaging in pedantic semantics. It does, in fact, make a significant, practical difference in cases like this.

 

 

 

One of the reasons I have always insisted on staying with my multi O and refusing to get the single entry B then convert to extension based on being employed.

Ok, I had to leave and return every 90 days if working long term in Thailand but we enjoyed the two day break somewhere. Never experienced the pay 1900 baht and 7 days to leave and chase a new visa etc etc.

Finish contract, hand over WP collect severence pay and walk away and stay until the next job came up.

[aboctok]

52 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Another example of when it is very important to understand that there is a fundamental difference between a visa and an extension of stay.

 

Unfortunately some people close their minds to this and insist the terms are interchangeable and that those who make the distinction are engaging in pedantic semantics. It does, in fact, make a significant, practical difference in cases like this.

 

 

 

Yes, well said. You will even come across people so insistent that their visa continues to be somehow active after it was used (to enter a country) that they believe the immigration police—who know differently—to be in error. Anytime you are in a foreign country, you are there by authority of an immigration officer. In making his decision, he will usually refer to your visa. But he is not bound by it, and in the case of a person who has already entered the country, that visa is deemed to have been used. It is not seen as being "valid."

[overherebc]

5 minutes ago, aboctok said:

Yes, well said. You will even come across people so insistent that their visa continues to be somehow active after it was used (to enter a country) that they believe the immigration police—who know differently—to be in error. Anytime you are in a foreign country, you are there by authority of an immigration officer. In making his decision, he will usually refer to your visa. But he is not bound by it, and in the case of a person who has already entered the country, that visa is deemed to have been used. It is not seen as being "valid."

You can't really make that a blanket statement.

When I enter on a one year multi O it remains valid for one year and is not 'used'. I exit/enter every 90 days and my 'visa' remains valid until the use by date. If I exit/enter one day before its use by date it's still valid and I get another 90 days making almost 15 months. I can then extend that last entry by 60 days for 1900 baht so I get nearly 17 months from that visa.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, MaddDog said:

Has my Visa been cancelled due to the Work Permit expiring?  Are they tied up?  My Work Permit wasn't cancelled ... just did't realize it expired and I should have gotten it extended! 

Assuming you have a 1 year extension of stay (permit not visa), issued by immigration, based on your work (WP) ...

 

No your permit to stay will not have been cancelled because immigration will not know that the WP has expired/not been renewed. However, technically the permit to stay is invalid because it was granted on the basis of you having a valid WP. If immigration were to discover this you could be in an overstay situation. If you are still working you are working illegally without a valid WP. You/your employer need to sort out a new WP at the local labour office asap.

 

There are several fines and implications of being on overstay or working without a work permit.

 

If you have a valid non-immigrant visa then the current 90 day stay is still valid, and you just need to sort out a new work permit to be legal again.

Edited October 18, 2017 by elviajero

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, aboctok said:

in the case of a person who has already entered the country, that visa is deemed to have been used. It is not seen as being "valid."

It is not "used" until the maximum number of entries have been made or it's expired. 

[overherebc]

47 minutes ago, elviajero said:

It is not "used" until the maximum number of entries have been made or it's expired. 

? One of the things I will never get tired of is trying to explain to people the massive difference between a visa and extension of permission to stay.

I'm not trying to put people down I am trying to help them so they don't get into deep doo-doo.

If they had ever spent time in IDC because at the time they didn't understand the difference then you'll know where I'm coming from. ( many years ago )

A couple of years ago I tried to explain to one guy about getting his WP on his multi O based on being married and he told me that his wife knew better because her friend in Imm' said he must have B. He went to Penang, I think, got a single entry B started work and after a few months the job fell through, extension cancelled and 7 days to leave. He ended up having to do a few out/ins on various VE's SETV's etc.

He's scratching now trying to get the 400,000 together to try to get a new multi 0 because he won't believe some places will issue it without finances shown.

[MaddDog]

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

Assuming you have a 1 year extension of stay (permit not visa), issued by immigration, based on your work (WP) ...

 

No your permit to stay will not have been cancelled because immigration will not know that the WP has expired/not been renewed. However, technically the permit to stay is invalid because it was granted on the basis of you having a valid WP. If immigration were to discover this you could be in an overstay situation. If you are still working you are working illegally without a valid WP. You/your employer need to sort out a new WP at the local labour office asap.

 

There are several fines and implications of being on overstay or working without a work permit.

 

If you have a valid non-immigrant visa then the current 90 day stay is still valid, and you just need to sort out a new work permit to be legal again.

Ok, so basically that sums it up! and as far as I understand it's clear now after speaking to some WP/Visa consultants who are going to charge B50k to cancel old WP/1 year extension to stay, reapply new Non-B at overseas Embassy/Consulate, new WP, 1 year extension of stay and Re-Entry Permit.  Excluded official receipts, travel costs to overseas Embassy/Consulate, Non-B fee etc .. 

 

I have a 1 year extension to stay.  The Non-B is no longer valid.  If the Non-B was still valid there would be no issues.  If I had a Non-O there would be no issues.

 

I am the employer and still employed but I guess now working illegally as I let my WP expire.  Too busy working to have kept an eye on the WP expiry date.  Lesson learnt here and fortunately I have an understanding employer who says you need a break anyways... . go hang out on the Mekong drinking beer Lao but just don't get into trouble!

So, putting the docs together for a new Non-B, flight ticket ready 24 hours after cancelling the 1 year extension to stay with Immigration as well as B 500/day fine for overstay.

As I understand this is serious Stuffs now and if I had let it run up to 3 or 6 months could be looking at a ban of 1 year.  The current consultants have a client who is now working remotely outside of Thailand until he can come back after his 1 year ban! 

I guess that's an B80k oversight I won't make again!   Not to mention the waste of time at Immigration and everywhere else!! 

Anyways Gents thanks for the info and as well help with the difference between a "Visa" and a "1 year extension of stay"  which is Important to know the difference, what they actual mean and how they're connected to your WP!!

[overherebc]

Max fine for overstay is still at 20,000 baht I think.

[MaddDog]

2 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Max fine for overstay is still at 20,000 baht I think.

correct.. I think my overstay fine will be about B7-8k .....

 

plane ticket, hotel, visa fee and then the Consultants fee of B50k 

so give or take a total of all this B80k not including my lost time trying to keep occupied out at Chaengwattana

[JackThompson]

I have to wonder if the "consultants" are not creating more issues - though I could very well be wrong.

 

What would happen if the OP simply flew out with his Non-B paperwork, obtained a new 90-Day Non-B at a consulate nearby, returned on that, obtained new work-permit, then went to immigration in the last 30-days of that entry with that new work-permit? 

 

I suspect he would be asked to provide a letter of his "leave-date" to officially-cancel his last extension.  So he provides a letter dated the day he flew out.  At that point, they would officially-cancel his last extension, and issue the new one. 

 

Would they ask to see his old, expired work-permit, and then count-days to generate an overstay-fine for his previous stay?

Edited October 19, 2017 by JackThompson

[Mattd]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I have to wonder if the "consultants" are not creating more issues - though I could very well be wrong.

 

What would happen if the OP simply flew out with his Non-B paperwork, obtained a new 90-Day Non-B at a consulate nearby, returned on that, obtained new work-permit, then went to immigration in the last 30-days of that entry with that new work-permit? 

 

I suspect he would be asked to provide a letter of his "leave-date" to officially-cancel his last extension.  So he provides a letter dated the day he flew out.  At that point, they would officially-cancel his last extension, and issue the new one. 

 

Would they ask to see his old, expired work-permit, and then count-days to generate an overstay-fine for his previous stay?

I am wondering what would happen if they just renew the existing work permit without renewing anything WRT the extension of stay etc.

The only possible issue with this could be that an IO notices the discrepancy during the next extension of stay application in May next year.

[MaddDog]

9 minutes ago, Mattd said:

I am wondering what would happen if they just renew the existing work permit without renewing anything WRT the extension of stay etc.

The only possible issue with this could be that an IO notices the discrepancy during the next extension of stay application in May next year.

I wondered the same thing but at the end of the day .. what's the additional cost?  Not that much when it's not coming directly out of my own pocket and not worth the consequences of something going south with Immigration 

 

Sucking it up and paying the piper!  

 

Lesson learned to watch the dates! 

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, MaddDog said:

Ok, so basically that sums it up! and as far as I understand it's clear now after speaking to some WP/Visa consultants who are going to charge B50k to cancel old WP/1 year extension to stay, reapply new Non-B at overseas Embassy/Consulate, new WP, 1 year extension of stay and Re-Entry Permit.  Excluded official receipts, travel costs to overseas Embassy/Consulate, Non-B fee etc .. 

I have a 1 year extension to stay.  The Non-B is no longer valid.  If the Non-B was still valid there would be no issues. 

I am the employer and still employed but I guess now working illegally as I let my WP expire.  Too busy working to have kept an eye on the WP expiry date.  Lesson learnt here and fortunately I have an understanding employer who says you need a break anyways... . go hang out on the Mekong drinking beer Lao but just don't get into trouble!

So, putting the docs together for a new Non-B, flight ticket ready 24 hours after cancelling the 1 year extension to stay with Immigration as well as B 500/day fine for overstay.

I don't have any personal experience of your situation so can't help much. But my feeling would be to simply leave the country, by air, asap. On exit, unless you have a re-entry permit, your extension of stay will automatically end with no overstay fine to pay. Re-enter with a new non-immigrant visa and start the WP/extension process again.

 

7 hours ago, MaddDog said:

If I had a Non-O there would be no issues.

If you are the spouse or parent of a Thai you would be better off getting a non 'O' visa rather than a non 'B' so that your permit to stay isn't reliant on your work.

[ericthai]

13 hours ago, MaddDog said:

correct.. I think my overstay fine will be about B7-8k .....

 

plane ticket, hotel, visa fee and then the Consultants fee of B50k 

so give or take a total of all this B80k not including my lost time trying to keep occupied out at Chaengwattana

why are you using a consultant. Just go to the embassy and apply for your B visa (with all current company docs, Taxes, etc) than go apply for you work permit. Work permit fee is about 3000B visa is 2000B

[rockedbottom]

I'm in a similar, but slightly different, boat, and would love some clarity.

My extension to stay is until Feb, 2018. I also have a re-entry permit which is valid until Feb 2018. My Work Permit is going to expire in Nov, 2017. I don't plan to continue working in the company, or to seek an extension of my visa. So, if i let my WP die in November, but continue to stay in Thailand until Feb 2018, am i going to face any difficulties while exiting?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[elviajero]

8 minutes ago, rockedbottom said:

I'm in a similar, but slightly different, boat, and would love some clarity.

My extension to stay is until Feb, 2018. I also have a re-entry permit which is valid until Feb 2018. My Work Permit is going to expire in Nov, 2017. I don't plan to continue working in the company, or to seek an extension of my visa. So, if i let my WP die in November, but continue to stay in Thailand until Feb 2018, am i going to face any difficulties while exiting?

 

Many thanks in advance.

Probably not if flying out. But your extension of stay is invalid on the date your WP ends and if that is discovered before you leave you could be prosecuted for overstaying.

[BritTim]

20 minutes ago, rockedbottom said:

I'm in a similar, but slightly different, boat, and would love some clarity.

My extension to stay is until Feb, 2018. I also have a re-entry permit which is valid until Feb 2018. My Work Permit is going to expire in Nov, 2017. I don't plan to continue working in the company, or to seek an extension of my visa. So, if i let my WP die in November, but continue to stay in Thailand until Feb 2018, am i going to face any difficulties while exiting?

 

Many thanks in advance.

When your employment ends, your extension of stay on the basis of working ceases to be valid. What you are supposed to do is get a letter from your employer indicating the final day of your employment, and take it to the immigration office that granted your extension. They will amend your extension such that it will end at your last date of employment. If you cannot apply for an extension on a different basis, you will need to leave the country and (if desired) return with a visa from a consulate outside Thailand or visa exempt. It is possible to apply for a (denied) extension and get seven days to leave the country if that is helpful.

 

Plenty of people (either through ignorance or because they are risk takers) do not do things the correct way, but continue unchanged. They are technically on overstay when they do this.

Edited October 24, 2017 by BritTim

[rockedbottom]

Thanks elviajero and BritTim for your replies. It gave me the clarity i was seeking.