Puppy Sick

[girlx]

there is a horrible case of either kennel cough or distemper circulating in my village lately- all the older dogs are hacking and coughing and have gooey eyes and noses. i have 2 puppies who are about 8 weeks old. i took them on friday to get their first injections. the vet said that if they had been exposed already to distemper, the vaccine might only make things worse. in the past two days since, one of the puppies has started coughing, has gooey eyes, and is not eating. she sleeps all day and her breathing seems a bit labored. i am wondering if this might be a reaction to the vaccine, or if she probably had already picked up whatever it is (kennel cough or distemper) before i took her in for shots. i think it is the latter, in which case she will probably die. but i am wondering if anyone has any advice on what i can do to help prevent that. specifically, are there any antibiotics i can give her to treat a lung infection before it turns into full blown pneumonia? i have tried to call the vet today to no avail...

thanks

[BambinA]

Kennel Cough - It's not a severe disease (dry cough),It can recovery by itself unless 2nd bacterial infection due to pneumonia (mucupurulent nasal dischage ..etc)

CD -Severe disease .There are 3 systems abnomal showns

1 Nervous sys > seizer ,behaviour cahge(walkin around him/herself)

2 Respiratory Tract Sys >> pheumonia, mucopurulent nasal dischage

3Digestive sys > diarrhaea (some cases)

u can see the infected dog get conjunctivitis (red eyes) , and also thicken foot pads(hard pard) due to hyperkeratinization .. Pads will be dry and rough (looklike dry rice field)

Virus 're shedding by nasal discharge /saliva / ocular discharge

Sadly,there are no specific treatment for CD

Follow from

symptomatic treatment

- Broad Spectrum Antibiotic - Cephalosporin gr. / Clavamox ..etc

- Mucolytic agent

- Chorampinecal eye ointment

Supportive TX

- Vit B 1-6-12 / B cpx / C

- Fluid Tx

Anyway ..I dont thing your dog got the disease from vac. ... she must get it before (but it was in incubation period)

Now you have to qaurantine her from the others

[girlx]

thanks bambina, so far none of the neighborhood dogs seem to have any of the neurological symptoms, so i am hoping it is kennel cough she has instead of distemper. either way though, she is really sick. i will give her some fluids and keep her away from others for now, but i can't get her to eat (how to force-feed?) and don't know what to do about labored breathing (she has fluid in her lungs which i can hear when she breathes).

[BambinA]

Let check your pup's pads (normal pups have solf pads)

[girlx]

so far her pads and nose are normal

[BambinA]

thanks bambina, so far none of the neighborhood dogs seem to have any of the neurological symptoms, so i am hoping it is kennel cough she has instead of distemper. either way though, she is really sick. i will give her some fluids and keep her away from others for now, but i can't get her to eat (how to force-feed?) and don't know what to do about labored breathing (she has fluid in her lungs which i can hear when she breathes).

sorry .. i forget to tell you .. its not necessarily that an infected dog will show all 3 probs altogether ..and Fluid TX = i/v or s/c route of fluid

BTW force feeding - you need a syringe

In your dog's case i recommend you dog getting systemic route of ATB (but you cant contact the vet today ,right?)

well .... go to the drug store and buy

1) Cephalexin syrup 125 mg/5 cc >> 1 cc = 25 mg>> u can use 1cc/kg dog (dose 20-40 mg /kg) 3 times a day ... keep the drug in the fridge ..it will be expired after u mixed with water in 10days (use room temp. of water for mixing)

2) Flemex(acetylcysteine) syrup 2-3 cc 3 times aday

[girlx]

thank you so much bambia, this is a great help... i will head to the store now!

[BambinA]

dont forget finding the syringe

and also buy multivitamin syrup na ja

Hope your pup get well soon xoxo

[elfe]

sorry to hear about your sick puppy.

check if she's got fever, if the temperature is too high give her some ibuprofen syrup for children to reduce fever. about the cough you have to check if it is 'dry' cough or if you need a syrup to loosen mucus in the lungs. don't force feed if she does not want to eat, but offer her the best smelling food you can. if she does not want to eat it is better for her body to be able to recover but make sure she gets lots of fluids. check if she is dehydrated, if so give water with electrolyte with syringe. better to give fluid subcutaneous with ringer solution.

as you described the dogs in your area show the symptoms only recently, if distemper the nervous symptoms only show after months or years! also the hard-pad shows in a much later stage and is very rare! the first singns are eye goo, cough, discharge from nose, and/or diarrhea, loss of appetite and energy.

for antibiotics i had the best success with doxyczcline, 1 tablet per day for 15 days for 10 kg bodyweight, you have to cut the tablet thoroughly and weigh the dog, overdose can do harm!

best of luck!!!

[BambinA]

if distemper the nervous symptoms only show after months or years! also the hard-pad shows in a much later stage and is very rare!

You may be right ..BUT In TH ..as i have been working as a vet for 10 yrs ...you can see both signs in few days or a wks

As some typical sign > pustules > as i have seen its rarely seeing in CD nowadays

DC is 5-20mg/kg ... you can give sid /bid but in pneumonia bid is recommended

for antibiotics i had the best success with doxyczcline, 1 tablet per day for 15 days for 10 kg bodyweight

Sounds like E.canis 's schedule

IN CD or Pneumonia we give ATB depends on how long of the sign of infections have been shown can be 1-4 wks

Anyway ..It's just my opionion and from the experiences are pretty different from the Text Book

(I dont try to beat you elfe)

[girlx]

thanks guys... it's probably distemper as apparently it is going around the whole island. my puppy's sibling (which a friend ws taking care of) just died today. doesn't look like much of a chance that the other little ones will survive, even the older dogs around here are taking it hard. i guess it is nature's way of culling them. i will continue to give supportive treatment as per your advice for now.

[elfe]

Sounds like E.canis 's schedule

Anyway ..It's just my opionion and from the experiences are pretty different from the Text Book

(I dont try to beat you elfe)

bambinA i'm not a vet - you are but it's just my experience with rescueing many many sick puppies and saving their lives... i've tried lots of things as well and followed lots of advice... fact is the younger the dog and the later you start treatment (hours count!) the less chance... good chances are with antiviral drugs like against bird flu but here in thailand hard to get, especially if for dog. doxy worked though in most cases...

[BambinA]

doxy worked though in most cases...

Acually i like DC ( good for respiratory tract infection)

[November Rain]

thanks guys... it's probably distemper as apparently it is going around the whole island. my puppy's sibling (which a friend ws taking care of) just died today. doesn't look like much of a chance that the other little ones will survive, even the older dogs around here are taking it hard. i guess it is nature's way of culling them. i will continue to give supportive treatment as per your advice for now.

If it is distemper, you've got to be really careful about isolating the affected dogs, girlx. We had a distemper outbreak last year. "Luckily" it happened at my house, not at the center itself, but I still had 40 dogs there. I had to quarantine the whole house, not have "casual" visitors, walk through a footbath (diluted bleach) as I left the house, wash hands etc at every opportunity. The suspected cases were kept seperate from others &, unfortunately, to stop it spreading, I had to put each positive diagnosis to sleep immediately. It was a horrendous time. I had to put 9 pups to sleep. It didn't spread any further than my house, thanks to the precautions. Do you have a vet? Ask him to test the nasal or eye discharge to determine if it is distemper. Good luck, I really hope it's not. I've got parvo (not personally) at the moment. 1 dead, 1 critical on IV at the moment and 9 under observation for symptoms. I hate the colder months!!

[girlx]

unfortunately the outbreak has already hit before it got to my house, so there is not much i can to to prevent other dogs from getting it, i think half my village is dying right now (depends on which it is- kennel cough or distemper). the girls at PAC didn't even bother to check, but there is no vet available til next month so maybe that's why. the situation with dogs in koh phangan is out of control, and i get the impression that they just give up too as they are overwhelmed.

[sbk]

Actually, I disagree girlx, I think you see only the TNP problems and fail to understand that they do not have a truck to go over the mountains. If people bring their animals into the clinic they are more than willing to treat them but they are incapable of travelling around the entire island to treat everyone's animals. I think you are being extremely unfair here.

Also, I must add that PAC was set up to deal with the stray problem, not local pets. Hence the major overload they have to deal with. They have lost their main source of funding from Asia Animal Foundation and now must rely mainly on donations and those customers who can pay.

As for not answering the phone, well, which number did you try? They have a mobile and landline. And are you also aware that they do actually close one day per week?

As for treatment, if you can't get anything else, TC Mycin (which is sold over the counter at most small shops) works. But, with puppies, it must be caught early, before they dehydrate.

[girlx]

i took my puppies in, they did not have to come to thong nai pan. i have also taken other dogs in before. the amount of times i have been brushed aside or given erroneous advice by them is ridiculous. granted they are volunteer nurses rather than vets, and i respect the organization for what they are trying to do overall, but the people they get working in there sometimes are absolutely useless. they did answer the phone, and i was told a nurse would call me back, never received a call... just got the same 5 minutes ago when i called again, because a 2nd puppy is in respiratory distress (wheezing horribly) and since i can not get to PAC (40 minutes on a bad road and i have no car) today then i was hoping they could give me some advice on any emergenc treatment. the girl who answered said "don't ask me"!. don't preach to me when you know nothing about the situation. if they were really helpful, they would take a taxi to every village on the island, round up the dogs, and vaccinate them to prevent situations like this. i have offered to pay for their taxi and a place to do treatment and even meds for them before, but they never respond. i realize they have lost their funding but the point is they should do what they can and take what help they can and not have listless attitudes with people whose pets are in an emergency situation.

FYI i have nursed the puppy i was originally talking about with doxycycline and cough syrup like bambina mentioned. she is now getting better. the 2nd puppy is deteriorating today. she is wheezing and can not get enough oxygen. i have been giving her amoxycillin for a week now for an abscessed tooth, as well as the cough syrup, but her immune system must be overloaded. i started her on doxy as well yesterday hoping it would help kill the respiratory infection, but she is only getting worse. i have done coupage also. if there is anything else i can do to help her that i have not thought of, i would appreciate the advice because again, PAC is USELESS sometimes.

[November Rain]

i took my puppies in, they did not have to come to thong nai pan. i have also taken other dogs in before. the amount of times i have been brushed aside or given erroneous advice by them is ridiculous. granted they are volunteer nurses rather than vets, and i respect the organization for what they are trying to do overall, but the people they get working in there sometimes are absolutely useless. they did answer the phone, and i was told a nurse would call me back, never received a call... just got the same 5 minutes ago when i called again, because a 2nd puppy is in respiratory distress (wheezing horribly) and since i can not get to PAC (40 minutes on a bad road and i have no car) today then i was hoping they could give me some advice on any emergenc treatment. the girl who answered said "don't ask me"!. don't preach to me when you know nothing about the situation. if they were really helpful, they would take a taxi to every village on the island, round up the dogs, and vaccinate them to prevent situations like this. i have offered to pay for their taxi and a place to do treatment and even meds for them before, but they never respond. i realize they have lost their funding but the point is they should do what they can and take what help they can and not have listless attitudes with people whose pets are in an emergency situation.

FYI i have nursed the puppy i was originally talking about with doxycycline and cough syrup like bambina mentioned. she is now getting better. the 2nd puppy is deteriorating today. she is wheezing and can not get enough oxygen. i have been giving her amoxycillin for a week now for an abscessed tooth, as well as the cough syrup, but her immune system must be overloaded. i started her on doxy as well yesterday hoping it would help kill the respiratory infection, but she is only getting worse. i have done coupage also. if there is anything else i can do to help her that i have not thought of, i would appreciate the advice because again, PAC is USELESS sometimes.

I'm sorry things are going so badly girlx & I'm not making a comment one way or the other about PAC, as I've never had any dealings with them, but I would like to say that sometimes members of the public don't realise how difficult it can be having an animal rescue center. First of all, funding. If you don't have the money, you can't buy food, medicine, pay vet fees, afford transport. So, when you're worried sick about how you're going to manage the animals you do have, you tend to put a far lower priority on calls that come in about other animals. If you can't do much for your animals, how can you help the ones they're worried about? For 7 months last year, my mum & I singlehandedly funded our dog center. She had to go to HK to get work, as we ran through all our savings. That's us, not PAC, but if they have anywhere near the same worries, I can understand them trying to conserve what resources they have.

Secondly, if the entire island has a distemper outbreak, they could be run off their feet dealing with their own cases. Just guessing, but possible.

Thirdly, I don't know if they have a rescue facility or treat dogs on the streets, but if they are overcrowded, that adds to the stress.

As for their workers, you have to take what you can get, often. I have two wonderful volunteers now & one who goes basically to play with the dogs & give them treats. Unfortunately, the 2 are leaving next month, & I'll be lucky to get anyone else. Nobody wants to do it. I'm so sick of hearing the "I love dogs too much, it would upset me" excuse!

I can empathise with your frustration at getting no help from them, and I'm not excusing them - I don't know what's going on with them - but I have received abuse from people when I've refused to take dogs from them, or take in dogs that they've reported. All they know, or care about, is this dog that they've seen, needing help, which I understand, but they don't see my side of it, no money, no staff, overcrowding, outbreaks of sickness, 35 dogs in my home (as well as the ones in the center).

Anyway, I certainly don't mean to lecture, I understand your worries & frustrations fully. At least we've got a good vet here who will treat the dogs & give us credit if we don't have money. It must be awful to do it on your own. I'm just trying to guess at some reasons why PAC might appear to be unhelpful.

[girlx]

i totally understand where you are coming from, however i can say that most of the time when i go into PAC the staff there is sitting around joking about whatever party they were last at, it's not like they are too busy to look at my pets. and there is no excuse for some of the poor treatment they have given in the past- they do have the meds and the space, and they can take taxis around for cheap or free. if they were at least giving it their best shot i wouldn't complain about it- i know how hard it is just by trying to take care of all the dogs in the village- it has gotten to the point where other people drop their dogs off at my house because they know i will at least try to help them (though i have no medical training, just the internet), and it seems like most of them come to die (i am starting to build up a resistance to it). but that's why i said the dog problem on koh phangan seems out of control... and they seem to be personally overwhelmed and thus apathetic- not all of them, but a couple of their volunteers who have come here to party on phangan rather than take the situation seriously. i would be happy to set up and even partially fund an extension here on this part of the island, but i can not get them to respond to me in an emergency, let alone any other time. it is very frustrating and i can't help but think that maybe they lost their funding because of incompetence.

[BambinA]

i have been giving her amoxycillin for a week now for an abscessed tooth, as well as the cough syrup, but her immune system must be overloaded. i started her on doxy as well yesterday hoping it would help kill the respiratory infection

I'm not sure that i misunderstand or not ( i think you still giving your pup both Amox and Doxy)

If so, Quit Amox (bactericidal ATB) .Coz DC is bacteriostatic, the will never synergist each other

Use only Dc as a main ATB then

[sbk]

You don't mean to preach but you most certainly do, and lectures from someone who says they can't come because they can't get a taxi over the mountain is farcical. If you can't get over there what in the heck makes you think they can? And they have been to TNP to do sterlizations recently, where were you? Not sure where you get the idea they can get taxis for free. Never heard that one before. Nobody gets taxis around the island for free.

And just for your information, they lost their grant because it was only available for 4 years. Any conjecture on your part is simply incorrect.

When my cat was dying they made every effort to help keep her alive. My husband went in twice or three times daily for two weeks and never encountered the scenario you are discussing. So, perhaps it is just coincidental on the few occasions you manage to get a taxi over, you find them sitting down.

As for the volunteers, have you ever asked to speak to the vet nurse who is employed there? Instead of asking questions of anyone who answers the phone, ask for the person in charge. And the fact she didn't call you back might have something more to do with the fact that she is busy rather than ignoring you. Next time, call again. And call until you get someone who can help.

[girlx]

lectures from someone who says they can't come because they can't get a taxi over the mountain is farcical. If you can't get over there what in the heck makes you think they can?

I TOOK MY PETS IN, did you not read that? this last time i called for advice, i was not expecting them to come out. however, it is quite a different situation to expect a taxi to take someone's dogs to thongsala, than it is for them to come in a taxi here sans-dog. it is 100 baht for them, or free if i paid for them. i don't expect them to come out here every time i have a emergency, however they could come out and take care of some of the dogs here now and then. even when they came to spay (they spayed my dog), they left half the village dogs undone, and it's filled back up with their puppies. and they didn't do any injections, hence outbreaks. they might be overwhelmed but several people offered to help them and they did not accept.

When my cat was dying they made every effort to help keep her alive.

good for you, when my dog was dying they made no effort and in fact did not even make me aware of the situation, sent us home where i (to my surprise) had to watch him suffer horrifically for 14 hours straight until he died. since i had made the effort to drag him all the way to thongsala (which is very difficult since i have to go first to thongsala to rent a jeep, drive back here, get the dog, and drive him to PAC and back, meanwhile he is bleeding all over and can't breathe), they could have shown me the consideration of at least giving him something for pain and letting me know the true situation.

As for the volunteers, have you ever asked to speak to the vet nurse who is employed there? Instead of asking questions of anyone who answers the phone, ask for the person in charge.

of course i have asked to speak to her, to no avail. the girl said she was in a meeting so yes she may have been busy. she did finally call back, hours later, and by then i had figured it out on my own. my point was that it was an emergency and rather than trying to help or get any useful info, the volunteer basically said it was not her problem... so what the hel_l is she doing there?

thanks bambina, stopped the Amoxicillin and the Doxy seems to be working... really appreciate your advice.

[Jet Gorgon]

In a pinch, you could also ferry it to Samui and song taew to Dr Somsak or the other Animal Hospital in Chaweng. I did that years ago when the only "vet" in the Gulf was the chicken steroid king in Nathon. Always call ahead to ensure they are open.

[elfe]

good to hear your puppz is getting better!!

most vets don't give doxy to puppies as it can do some harm to their teeth if they haven't got the second teeth yet also it is not good for the bones, but if you can save the life with it i thing brown teeth is not as bad as dying... you should give your puppy calcium supplement but 6 hrs before of after doxy as it will reduce doxy's effectifity, the same goes with vitamins and other minerals - very important!

as for vaccine, don't vaccinate any sick dog or dogs which have survived virus disease.

[sbk]

Just do me a favor girlx, don't smear the reputation of an organization that is working and has worked very hard to try and help strays on this island based on your one experience. I have dealt with PAC since they opened and have never experienced what you are discussing, nor have I ever witnessed such behavior. I am not discounting your experience but I am disputing your right to accuse them of incompetence. If you are so inclined why don't you contact the founder of PAC, Shevaun, and tell her of your problems with the clinic.

Let me tell you, I was here before they opened and I see the difference they have made.

[Jet Gorgon]

I'm with you, SBK. Shevaun and PAC helped out Samui dog emergencies when Somsak was on vacation a few years back. Very helpful and extremely competent.

[girlx]

actually i think shevaun and the thai vet that is there sometimes too both do an excellent job, however i rarely see them there and their volunteers do not always do so well. i have spent a lot of time in the past trying to promote (funding of) their center on places like the lonely planet message board etc. and i donate to them every time i go. however i do think that some of the people there should think about why they are there and if they can't hack it, they should leave, because otherwise they just hinder the progress of the place. maybe they are still having growing pains, in which case i do sympathize, but it is difficult to be really sympathetic when it is your pet they are ignoring.

p.s. elfe i don't know where to get calcium supplements anytime soon as i have too much work right now to go into town... but do you think feeding them milk will help or hinder (considering they have a lot of mucus already)? again, thanks for advice!

[November Rain]

I wouldn't give them any cows milk at the moment, girlx. Like you said, they're producing a lot of mucus & if they're intolerant of it, the last thing you want is diarrhoea on top of what they have already. Do you have goat's milk? Puppies tolerate that far better, or puppy formula if you have it

PS Glad they're getting better, must be the day for good news. Looks like my critcal pup with parvo is going to make it as well.

[elfe]

for calcium give them just bones then, at least twice a day, chicken bones, raw or cooked, with meat of course a very good source of calcium is egg shell, boil the eggs for some minutes and then grind the shells, i do it with my hands but you can put them in a mortar or just a bowl and use a spoon as pestle. mix the powder with their food.