Saving Face, A Selfish Act That Benefits The Culpable Only.

[helicoptor]

We farangs have our own version of saving face, Its called 'not wanting to look like a complete pillock in front of everybody'

[ThaiGoon]

How do you cope with what is for me the most irritating type of saving face - the refusal to admit that something has not been understood? We have 2 Thai workers in our dog center & occasionally I'll ask them to do something which is either totally new, or gets lost in translation (none of us are extremely fluent in the others' language). Instead of giving any sign that they haven't understood, they'll happily nod & smile & tell me of course they'll do it, OK. And then, of course, it doesn't get done, because they don't have the foggiest what I asked for. Even if I ask if they understand, they will never say "no". How do I get around this?

You reminded me of myself when I was still beginning to learn English. I always nodded and acted like I understood what was said in English, even if I didn't. And I still can't put a finger as to why I (and many other Thais) did that. Perhaps it was the sense or feeling that we didn't wanna upset that farang or we were afraid of emabarassing ourselves if we admitted that we didn't have a freaking clue about what had been said. Hmmm...I guess it's more of the latter.

Actually even now I still do it sometimes....but not if it's something serious like work related stuff though.

[ThaiGoon]

Ooops I meant to edit it.

[Bananaman]

I find this topic very interesting so I just told my Thai wife I was reading in the forum about 'see-a naa' and asked her why she is not acting culturally correct by being non confrontational when she gets mad at me. Her answer was that she is in America now so she can now act like American girls ! It now appears to me that maybe this see-a naa may not be such a bad thing after all ???

its naa-taak, not see-a naa. Besides, the adjective always goes after the noun, so even if you were correct in your choice of words, it would be reversed: na see-a

strange your wife couldn't be bothered to correct you. pehaps she wanted you to save face?

Actually TS, Jetjock was merely quoting me when he used the expression see-a naa so don't go the heavy hand with him. FYI see-naa is as accurate as naa see-a, the two can be used interchangeably depending on the context and that info comes care of the native speaker sat right next to me.

[Galong]

Thais do it in a "non confrontational" manner? Are you serious! Thai's spit the dummy just as fast as any other nationality I've ever been around... well, at least in Phuket. Do something to a Thai man that he doesn't like at it is likely (in some cases, certainly not all) that he'll blow his top... come on man, I see this all the time.

Face? What is this in a Buddhist context? Sidhartha's sudden enlightenment (anutara somyak sambohdi) was centered around abolishing the concept of a personal identity - the An-atman. How can someone lose a face that they shouldn't really have in the first?

I'm NOT trying to slam Thai Buddhism. I'd really appreciate someone who understand Thai Buddhsim to answer this puzzling problem... please.

[Galong]

Oops, the PC fairy told me I should modify the last sentence to say "I'm NOT trying to slam Thai Buddhism. On the contrary, I'd really appreciate someone who understands Thai Buddhsim to answer this puzzling problem... please. I'd like to understand 'their' reasoning or justification for such a cultural policy... for lack of a better description."

Peace

[elkangorito]

I don't really think it's a cultural thing at all.

Since year 'dot', people who were too lazy to change simply thought of ways to make others change. It didn't take long to realise that humans respond greatly to fear...especially a fear from an unseeable, untouchable & absolutely powerful 'thing'.

As soon as this was realised, all the 'rules' were laid down in stone. These rules were supposed to make life easy for everyone...provided everyone followed them. But this rarely happens.

Ego, along with inherent laziness, has played a large part in perpetuating these 'rules'. One can now be totally free of any responsibility because the rules are responsible...not the human. The words 'care' & 'selfish' have had their meanings reversed. To be a caring person, pay lots of 'nice' lip service & perform simple public acts of gratitude to others, thus feeding the ego & perpetuating the 'pay back' cycle. If you don't do this or do put yourself first, you are considered 'selfish'.

So 'loss of face' is an ego thing...& the ego has an insatiable appetite. How many people lie their heads off just because of their ego?

I put forward that 'loss of face' (humiliation) has little to do with respect (& self respect) & honour, & much more to do with not having faith or respect in yourself.

As another poster pointed out, just because it's been around for yonks, doesn't make it right.

On the other hand, I've managed to totally circumvent all this cultural stuff by simply applying the few simple & 'universal' things that I know - faith, trust, honour, respect & love. ALL humans respond to these things & most will put them well above any cultural ideal. I've done this many times in Thailand. Whilst I undertand the culture here, I disagree with most of it & simply ignore it. I just stick to faith, trust, honour, respect & love.

[Jet Gorgon]

I don't really think it's a cultural thing at all.

Since year 'dot', people who were too lazy to change simply thought of ways to make others change. It didn't take long to realise that humans respond greatly to fear...especially a fear from an unseeable, untouchable & absolutely powerful 'thing'.

As soon as this was realised, all the 'rules' were laid down in stone. These rules were supposed to make life easy for everyone...provided everyone followed them. But this rarely happens.

Ego, along with inherent laziness, has played a large part in perpetuating these 'rules'. One can now be totally free of any responsibility because the rules are responsible...not the human. The words 'care' & 'selfish' have had their meanings reversed. To be a caring person, pay lots of 'nice' lip service & perform simple public acts of gratitude to others, thus feeding the ego & perpetuating the 'pay back' cycle. If you don't do this or do put yourself first, you are considered 'selfish'.

So 'loss of face' is an ego thing...& the ego has an insatiable appetite. How many people lie their heads off just because of their ego?

I put forward that 'loss of face' (humiliation) has little to do with respect (& self respect) & honour, & much more to do with not having faith or respect in yourself.

As another poster pointed out, just because it's been around for yonks, doesn't make it right.

On the other hand, I've managed to totally circumvent all this cultural stuff by simply applying the few simple & 'universal' things that I know - faith, trust, honour, respect & love. ALL humans respond to these things & most will put them well above any cultural ideal. I've done this many times in Thailand. Whilst I undertand the culture here, I disagree with most of it & simply ignore it. I just stick to faith, trust, honour, respect & love.

Holy cow. That's real stand-up, stalwart statements, there. Did you support flogging, stoning, crucifiction and throw 'em to the lions forum games, too? And maybe in this life I hear you say, hey, you, where's the extra f** cheese I ordered with my f** burger? Chill, dear forum brother, chill.

[elkangorito]

Holy cow. That's real stand-up, stalwart statements, there. Did you support flogging, stoning, crucifiction and throw 'em to the lions forum games, too? And maybe in this life I hear you say, hey, you, where's the extra f** cheese I ordered with my f** burger? Chill, dear forum brother, chill.

Since when do positive things like love, faith, respect, honour & trust, relate to the violent acts & unnecessary rudeness? You are looking at my comment 180 degrees out of phase. Also, my comments were very 'chilled'.

Thankyou, dear forum brother, thankyou.

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

I once saw this rule written in a menu in a Thai restaurant. The waitress told me that it prevented losses of face among the staff.

5) Discussion of inedible food, kitchen hygiene or our policies concerning wee-weeing in the tom-yam are not allowed in the restaurant. Such comments should be directed to the chef, and not discussed in the dining area.

[t.s]

I find this topic very interesting so I just told my Thai wife I was reading in the forum about 'see-a naa' and asked her why she is not acting culturally correct by being non confrontational when she gets mad at me. Her answer was that she is in America now so she can now act like American girls ! It now appears to me that maybe this see-a naa may not be such a bad thing after all ???

its naa-taak, not see-a naa. Besides, the adjective always goes after the noun, so even if you were correct in your choice of words, it would be reversed: na see-a

strange your wife couldn't be bothered to correct you. pehaps she wanted you to save face?

Actually TS, Jetjock was merely quoting me when he used the expression see-a naa so don't go the heavy hand with him. FYI see-naa is as accurate as naa see-a, the two can be used interchangeably depending on the context and that info comes care of the native speaker sat right next to me.

odd, the native speaker next to me is in agreement with me. ironic that no one wants to tell us who is wrong.

[Bananaman]

I find this topic very interesting so I just told my Thai wife I was reading in the forum about 'see-a naa' and asked her why she is not acting culturally correct by being non confrontational when she gets mad at me. Her answer was that she is in America now so she can now act like American girls ! It now appears to me that maybe this see-a naa may not be such a bad thing after all ???

its naa-taak, not see-a naa. Besides, the adjective always goes after the noun, so even if you were correct in your choice of words, it would be reversed: na see-a

strange your wife couldn't be bothered to correct you. pehaps she wanted you to save face?

Actually TS, Jetjock was merely quoting me when he used the expression see-a naa so don't go the heavy hand with him. FYI see-naa is as accurate as naa see-a, the two can be used interchangeably depending on the context and that info comes care of the native speaker sat right next to me.

odd, the native speaker next to me is in agreement with me. ironic that no one wants to tell us who is wrong.

You say potayto....

[Jet Gorgon]

Holy cow. That's real stand-up, stalwart statements, there. Did you support flogging, stoning, crucifiction and throw 'em to the lions forum games, too? And maybe in this life I hear you say, hey, you, where's the extra f** cheese I ordered with my f** burger? Chill, dear forum brother, chill.

Since when do positive things like love, faith, respect, honour & trust, relate to the violent acts & unnecessary rudeness? You are looking at my comment 180 degrees out of phase. Also, my comments were very 'chilled'.

Thankyou, dear forum brother, thankyou.

Dear Elkangorito,

I do not dispute your ideals, which are admirable and which I also try to follow. But I beg to differ on your views of face, cultural ideosyncracies and rules. These contribute to the basis of any society. I would believe you came to Thailand of your own accord. Therefore, learning the cultural mores of the country and adhering to their basic precepts should be a given. I do not agree with everything here, either, but it is simpler than the West, once you know the rules. And, if you are clever, you can easily slide among the rules, do as you wish and still make everyone content. And you do seem to be very clever, Brother.

[Donz]

No Government ever want to admit there wrong.

Like this is just a Thai thing.

Im sure all politicians lie there mutherfarking asses off

[Billfo]

I see saving face as both good and bad. I think its great that its non-confrontational, but at the same time I do agree with the people saying its bad. How can a business or even a person better themselves if they are not told if they are doing something wrong.

I think in everyday life, saving face is a great concept, but in business, particularly international businesses it just isn't feasable.

Regarding Thai people not wanting to admit they don't understand what a farang is asking/saying, I don't believe that to be exclusively a Thai trait at all, I hope I'm not alone here, but I've done it loads of times (I'm English btw). I can't count how many times throughout my life when a stranger has asked/told me something and I've had to ask what they've said a couple of times, if I still don't understand them it gets embarrasing keep asking them to repeat themselves so I'll just sort of guess what they've said and nod along. Then again to my knowledge I've only ever done that a couple of times at work at one of my previous jobs in a music store, pretended to know what they say and tell them "I'll go look for it in the stock room", go to the toilet or something and come back to the customer and inform them "Sorry, it appears to be out of stock"

[PhilHarries]

I agree, if there were one thing I could change about the Thai people it would be this "face" thing and chants like "another westerner who doesn't understand Asian culture - great!" are purile to say the least You can understand a culture but you don't necessarily have to like it and I don't get the remark about the thread title being inflammatory, it's daft remarks like that that lead to the flamings.

There are two sides to this subject.

The first is the inability of many Thais, I won't say all as someone is bound to jump on that generalisation, to either admit they made a mistake or to point out that someone else made one. Of course pointing out that someone else has goofed up should always be done in private and in a quiet, calm manner. Bawling out someone in front of their peers is a sure fire way to generate resentment anywhere and in any culture. So in that respect we have this "face" thing in western culture just not so strong.

In the western world, we also have people who'll do everything they can to cover up any mistakes they have made to the extent of trying to pass the blame onto someone else. These people are collectively known as ar5eholes, to be as polite as I can. But we are talking about acceptable behaviour so it is reasonable to assume that, in general, people fess up to mistakes.

If we don't recognise our mistakes or aknowledge them we can't learn from them and if we don't do that we are condemmed to repeat them.

Once a Thai dispute becomes confrontational, and don't deny that it happens, there is no escape route. Face has been lost and there must be retribution. Again yes,in the west we have those, particularly on a Friday or Saturday night in the UK, that can't back down but that's due to a completely different cause.

Of course, as stated, this mistake avoidance culture means that people are reluctant to make decisions in case they are the wrongs ones. Except, that is, for the ex great leader Thaksin who never made a mistake, the mistakes were made by the people who pointed out he made a mistake.

Well that's my 25 satang worth, I'll be off for a few Tigers now and soon all this will make perfect sense.

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

Regarding Thai people not wanting to admit they don't understand what a farang is asking/saying, I don't believe that to be exclusively a Thai trait at all, I hope I'm not alone here, but I've done it loads of times (I'm English btw). I can't count how many times throughout my life when a stranger has asked/told me something and I've had to ask what they've said a couple of times.

Yes why can't they all speak fluent English dammit.

[HenryB]

I agree with bananaman (what a name!). To improve your society and learn from your mistakes, you have to face and admit your mistakes! If Thais want to compete in our globalized world they'll have no choice than to be more direct and honest. A remark like; they've surivided thousands of years without our values is complete rubbish. Look at the general living conditions in Europe and here in Asia!

As we live here it doesn't automatically mean we have to accept everything, I mean the Thais might actually learn something from us as well as we can learn from them!

My Mother told be that to take a tip is losing face but now in all restaurants Thais look for tips. Please help me out. Is it Ok to take tip from a non Thai as Thais don't give.

[Billfo]

Regarding Thai people not wanting to admit they don't understand what a farang is asking/saying, I don't believe that to be exclusively a Thai trait at all, I hope I'm not alone here, but I've done it loads of times (I'm English btw). I can't count how many times throughout my life when a stranger has asked/told me something and I've had to ask what they've said a couple of times.

Yes why can't they all speak fluent English dammit.

When I was talking about me not understand strangers, and the times at work in the record store, all that was in England. So my previous point wasn't expecting Thai's to speak fluent English. My point was, if I do it with people who speak the same language from the same country, I'm not going to criticse Thai's not understand English sometimes and not wanting to be embarresed keep asking people to repeat themselves about 5 times.

[Crushdepth]

What bothers me is people that *intentionally* do something bad knowing that their colleagues will pretend it didn't happen to give them face.

[steveromagnino]

odd, the native speaker next to me is in agreement with me. ironic that no one wants to tell us who is wrong.

YOu are wrong in thinking it cannot be said three ways. I speak Thai, whoever your native speaker is, tell them this, they might learn something. Or is it maybe because you are not explaining it clearly?

seea nah = the act of losing face (verb then noun)

nah seea = a face with an apperance of lost face'ness' (noun then adjective)

nah dtaek = similar to the one above

All are fine, and used in slightly different context; ok happy?

Talk about splitting pointless straws................

Anyheeeeow, getting back to how to handle staff...as a manager you may at times be in front of staff who do not wish to communicate.

The best way for more staff, is to let them come up with the solution of how you want something done themselves. Incidentally, this is excellent for letting people gain face, and worked really really well in dealing with senior management for me in the past. In the west and here.

Ask a question for what you want done; we need this done, how would you get it done? Not have you got an idea of how to do, but HOW WOULD YOU DO IT? If necessary, spell out most, but then leave out some.

You will get an answer, offer positive feedback, and guide them towards how you want them to do it.

Once they actually come up with the solution, then say, 'ah brilliant, YOUR WAY is going to work. How long will it take?'

Then they can commit to a completion date, with their idea, and any failure is THEIR IDEA THEIR PROBLEM.

Obstinance is nothing here compared to dealing with 100 gas fitters who have all been told that instead of working 30 hours a week, they are all going to be made redundant, and have to reapply to work as contractors. The only way to convince them to come back was to allow them to come up with a solution that they could charge a certain way, be supplied with certain equipment using loans secured by their time to work for the company and so on. In the end productivity of the same people doing the same job went up like 3-4X per person, and partly as a result of this and many similar actions, the company concerned was a top performer in that share market for about 5 years. Because the people concerned were on the line with their own ideas.

Try it, it make take a bit longer, but I bet done right you get 2X better work out of the people concerned.

[ronw]

I agree with bananaman (what a name!). To improve your society and learn from your mistakes, you have to face and admit your mistakes! If Thais want to compete in our globalized world they'll have no choice than to be more direct and honest. A remark like; they've surivided thousands of years without our values is complete rubbish. Look at the general living conditions in Europe and here in Asia!

I am afraid you are speaking from a very limited point of view....living conditions in Europe within living memory were very similar to those in Asia now.....the remarkable increase in standards have usually come within the past sixty years. or so........

I am an old man now, and for most of Britain....where we lived when I was young would now be called a slum...

[jumnien]

Concurrent with the increase in living standards in my country has come a increase in outrage and entitlement. I was walking in Laguna Beach, CA over Christmas and some fool in a pickup truck yelled at an old lady in a crosswalk, "Can't you f---ing walk right!". Numerous times I heard irate people in banks, Starbucks, juice shops say things like "I'd like to talk to your supervisor", "Is there a manager" and livid over a minute wait in line. No regard about how other people feel.

There must be a happy medium. But I hope Thailand stays Thailand. I'd hate to see a bunch of Thais acting like Americans when I go to the bank or the shopping mall.

[Kf6vci]

I hear you. A few times, saving face was an excuse for premeditated outright lying. Example: a family member had not paid the ADSL & phone bill for months. First, the fact was kept secret to save face. Second, a false promise was made about paying "this weekend". It took weeks longer - because to save face, the required call to Mother was delayed.

[jamman]

Another farang who doesn't understand Asia... Great........

Another person who thinks being critical is a sign of not assimilating and therefore of not understanding.

I'm critical of my own culture. Is that a sign that I don't understand it?

There is nothing wrong with critisising a different culture, from the vantage of one own culture. One can understand another persons actions from our own perspective, with insight and clairity. Sometimes the outsider even has the advantage.

[AlexLah]

Look at my avator lah, I loose face all the time ha ha ha.

OK serious, today I had a discussion over this face thing with some of my new staff.

They asked me what I knew of Thai culture and what I liked and did not like.

Well usual answers from me like the blatant corruption, cover ups and so on that I do not like bla bla.

Then I asked them if they could enlighten me on the face issue...........

Well lots of stories about that it all started with tthe farmers when they harvest eachothers fields

and about the fact that some fields were larger then theirs and that people felt it was unfair but to keep the community working together it was sort of decided not to say anything about it to avoid any trouble.

That was one of the stories and they had a few more but I cannot type that fast so will not go too much in detail.

Anyway I sort of explained the rules that my company is using and that is that whenever you forget something or make a mistake you tell it to me (in this case) and then together we look at what went wrong and how to avoid making that same mistake again. And I will also tell you that I know you can do better because I trust you and have faith in you.

I also made sure to them that they will not loose face as long as they just tell me, however I also told them that they will loose face big time if I ever found out they lied to me (create fear?).

Please ask if you do not understand and I will try to explain perhaps in a different way or using different (more simple) words. You not get fired for asking something.

Life is a lesson and we all have to learn so I do not care too much when you make ten mistakes in a week as long as we all learn and benefit from it. However I will get a angry when you make the same mistake ten times in a week.

Our company have some objectives and we need to work together to achieve those. So I will do my best to help you wherever I can and you, please help me wherever you can.

If you have some bright idea, throw it in the group and if it seems nice, knock yourself out.

There is all kinds of tools available for you to achieve your goals, climb the career ladder and gain more confidence, knowledge and respect as well as a beter salary.

But I need your mind to be like a parachute.

What do you mean by that one asked.

If it is not open it does not work I replied.

How do you feel when you know someone is telling you a lie but you do not say anything in order to keep the peace. All of them agreed it was not nice. So I told them please when working together be honest as you will gain face that you had the courage to admitt you did something wrong. We are all humans and we all make mistakes, the question is : Are you willing to learn from it?

And guess what, they really liked the whole way of thinking they said to me.

So I will seee how these newcomers will perform but for now I have good hope!

Take care all!

Alex

[Jet Gorgon]

Hard to believe you run a company with an avatar like that, Alexlah.

Do you do office party entertainment?

[teddy_bare]

This thread has been really helpful. I have been in LOS for about 4 years and started with the "why do thais do this, that and the other", and would complain if my rice came 20 minutes before the main food (so read complained a lot). then as the years passed i mellowed to the point i just didn't care.

i asked my Thai g/f (a simple girl who has never been to the pole) about the face thing. her view was that people knew when they were right or wrong and it was their choice to either hide behind the concept or inwardly admit they were wrong and subsequently change their ways. i explained some people would abuse that to their advantage. Her answer was again simple yet important. Karma would complete the circle for them.

hard to argue faith, so i asked her if i was right to correct thai people or ask "why"when i got the "sorry we can not do"or "ï don't"know" type answer. She said i was wrong and would lose respect, and get less help than before. She also pointed out that many people who worked in a job were not qualified or didn't know about what they were selling. I guess we have all experienced that whilst shopping.

So i have never really got my head around it, but feel i am nearer to understanding it after reading this thread.

Whether i actually care more is debatable. My previous ideas about starting a western style business have been shelved for the multiple reasons posted on other threads in this forum. I will continue you live here and continue to try to adapt my learned behaviour to fit my adopted home.

I do find many of the commenters on Thai Visa need to take the Western Stick out of the bum and chill out a bit. I imagine the Pakistani community in the UK has the equivilant BRIT VISA and complain like mad about the rules and regs and the intolerance of the locals to their way of thinking and behaviours.

LOL Imagine the locals reading BRIT VISA, undoubtably they would think the "Cheeky Monkeys" coming to this country and .......... ........ ....... .......!

Anyway i am off down to the phone company to see if there are any phone lines available in my Moo Baan. Wish me luck

[Jet Gorgon]

I do find many of the commenters on Thai Visa need to take the Western Stick out of the bum and chill out a bit.

Good luck with getting a land line. Will expect your call in 2022.

[lannabull]

I actually really like this aspect of Thai culture. The concept of face allows you to accomplish what you want to without having to raise your voice or show excessive emotion. Ive been here for about 5 years and when i visit home i am amazed how dense everyone seems. Defining dense, i mean that you have to yell and become beligerant just to get a reaction. I think that face concept in the culture is far more civilized than the way most western cultures approach the same.. Amazing how much a look in the eyes can accomplish here, im a fan.