Leasing Land

[geordie]

I am married to Thai, have built a house which is my wife's name.

Me and the wife have just bought some land which we are going to build a bar and restaurant on and may be a new house in the future. The land has gone in the wife's name which i know is the rule.

I have been a member of TV for awhile now, and i always look in this forum.

The thing i am wanting to know is can i lease the land from my wife. We went to the land office today i stayed outside, my wife came out and said that i had to get the marraige certificate, i was expecting to sign to say that i had no interest in the purchase of the land and that the money was my wife's, as this is what i have read on here. I did sign a form.

We later went to see a lawyer to ask if he could make out a lease agreement for the wife to lease the land to me.

He asked if we got married in Thailand which we did, and then he said that i could not lease the land from my wife as the land is 50/50 owned my the both of us although i am not on the land title. He said that the reason they asked for the marriage cert and for me to sign it is that my wife can not sell the land without me agreeing to it. The marriage cert is held at the office, well a copy anyway.

I know that some people on here have made land leases but were they already married when they done this.

We have now agreed to make a contract where as if we do divorce the land and the buildings will go into my daughters name.

Sorry if this is abit drawn out, but any info on this subject would be apreciated.

Thanks in advance

Cheers Geordie

[geordie]

I am married to Thai, have built a house which is my wife's name.

Me and the wife have just bought some land which we are going to build a bar and restaurant on and may be a new house in the future. The land has gone in the wife's name which i know is the rule.

I have been a member of TV for awhile now, and i always look in this forum.

The thing i am wanting to know is can i lease the land from my wife. We went to the land office today i stayed outside, my wife came out and said that i had to get the marraige certificate, i was expecting to sign to say that i had no interest in the purchase of the land and that the money was my wife's, as this is what i have read on here. I did sign a form.

We later went to see a lawyer to ask if he could make out a lease agreement for the wife to lease the land to me.

He asked if we got married in Thailand which we did, and then he said that i could not lease the land from my wife as the land is 50/50 owned my the both of us although i am not on the land title. He said that the reason they asked for the marriage cert and for me to sign it is that my wife can not sell the land without me agreeing to it. The marriage cert is held at the office, well a copy anyway.

I know that some people on here have made land leases but were they already married when they done this.

We have now agreed to make a contract where as if we do divorce the land and the buildings will go into my daughters name.

Sorry if this is abit drawn out, but any info on this subject would be apreciated.

Thanks in advance

Cheers Geordie

[quiksilva]

Time for a change of lawyer I think. I have never heard of this problem. As a farang you cant actually own land, so I dont see why you cant lease this from your wife. You will have to pay income tax and various other lease registration costs though.

You may also want to look into an usufruct. Sunbelt can probably advise on the process and costs involved

[geordie]

Thanks for that Quiksilva,

that is why i was asking for some info. I have lived here for over 5 years now and i know that i cannot own land. What i signed is what i thought, that i was agreeing that the land had nothing to do with me, and the money for the sale was my wife's money.

The bit about being married to Thai and the marraige took place in Thailand and the land was 50/50 owned being that we were married got me thinking. You will probably know yourself that if we went to court over a divorce settlement, they would favour the Thai.

I was in Bangkok today to pick up a Police Clearence Report and was thinking about seeing Sunbelt, but i never had the time. I think i have to go back to Bangkok on Friday to pick up my secound passport, i might go and see them and take the wife with me, as i said the wife wants to lease the land to me. I will let you know how i get on, by the way i live in Sakon Nakhon.

Thanks again for the reply.

Cheers Geordie

Edited January 16, 2007 by geordie

[quiksilva]

My pleasure best of luck with it!

I think you'll find that the your lawyer was confusing aspects of his advice with divorce law with respect to communal ownership. Leasing should not be a problem.

[zzz9]

Ok Geodie.

As I did the lease process I can tell you this:

2 options:

1) Your wife not thrilled to make this lease contract so she is not much helpfull.

(sorry if that sounds not nice but it is a high possibility).

2) Your wife dont know the rules in Thailand about land that farang buy (I doubt it..) and as you live in

Banok so they hardly knows whats their name is (low possibility).

Remember what I say now:

As you will pass this proccess (eventually..) you will see also in land office and also in the Amphur office when u'll get your "Tabian-ban si luang" u'll see cases (bags full with farang contracts and house books papers that passed this process)......

Make ur own conclusions by urself.

[geordie]

Talking about my wife not wanting to do the lease, it was my wife who suggested to do it this way. I have already built a house and that is in my wife's name aswell as the land that it is on.

The land that we have just bought is in my wife's name which i was well aware of before i gave her the money to buy it, the land is to build a bar and restaurant on, and may be later another house. I have always came to the conclusion since i have lived here is that you never spend what you cannot aford to loose. Me and the wife are protecting our daughter. My wife has a daughter from her previous marraige and the land and house that we live in now will go to her daughter. The land we just bought is just around the corner.

We have just this moment agreed to make a contract with the lawyer, if we do divorce the land and house plus buildings on the new land will be put into our daughters name, but i will have the right to live there until i pass away.

Thelawyer is righting up the contract tomorrow.

Thanks for your info

Cheers Geordie

[zzz9]

hi , thanks that u not taking my comment too personal.

And to the las final advice.

Lawers its a nice thing..and good to do. BUT!! to lock it down you need to register it in the LAND OFFICE.

If its just a private contract you'll find it very hard to enforce the rules in the contract (I'm talking about the worst case in area -if the wife's/the owner doesn't agree in the future from some reason).

Remember- Land office if u dont lock it there. u just have a paper and for foreigner to deal with the thais...

Lets just say the thais will mostly take the side of the thai as the right one.

I know a guy who made a long very detail contract and also the ministry of foreign signed but guess what? he lost his house and going to courts several times for this case in the last 2 years.

I dont want to be pasimistic because I dont (!) but if u want to do the right thing... do it in the land office.

If the land office not agree take a serious lawer to force them to do so .

Translate everything to eng/thai. and only when u syre 100% what u sign and what u and ur wife agree so sign on it.

In my case they wanted to change my contract(land office).I didnt..and force them to do it my way as this is what me and the wife agreed. and they did so.

Best wishes and good luck.

[geordie]

Thanks zzz9,

i did'nt take it the wrong way, any info is better than none if you know what i mean.

When the contract is drawn up, i will take it to Bangkok with me to get a second opinion from another law firm, and as you said i will get it registered with the land office.

I am only looking after my daughters interest here. I want the best for her and if i am not around i do not want her short changed, not that i think my wife will do that, but it is better to be safe than sorry. My wife understands how i feel, if my wife past away before me i do not want the other halfs getting there way.

Thanks for the help mate.

Cheers Geordie

[sinam]

I think the land office is saying the wife has to get your approval if she wants to sell the property. I think that is factual. But ultimately in the case of a divorce the courts would decide whether you would get anything. Does anyone have a direct translation of the document you sign at the land office about the money that is used to purchase the house? In the case of a mortage I've wondered if it refers just to the 20% of the down payment or also to the 80% that is coming directly out of the falangs thai bank account every month for 20 years. What would a court say to those thai documents...

Si Nam

[geordie]

Hello Sinam, thanks for the reply.

I think that what i signed at the office is something like a waiver, to say that i have no interest in the land and that the money was my wife's and not my money to purchase the land, that is what i have been led to believe, although my lawyer says different.

I have explained in my post that we bought this other land to build a bar and restaurant on it, and by bar i do not mean a girly bar, i want it to be family friendly.

If and when i do build another house on the land it will be in my name.

I am making out a contract with my wife and i have just had dinner with my lawyer and wife wife to discuss what we want to have in the contract, i have covered all the possible pit falls, ie if my wife did happen to pass away before myself, then the vulture's cannot take nothing away from my daughter as everything thing would be transfered into my daughters name, that would also happen if i went first or we divorced. I am trying to protect my daughters interest. Which i think that you can appreciate.

I wish i did have a translation of what i signed though.

Cheers Geordie

[Livinginexile]

Hi Geordie

A work friend of mine that used to work at the airport with me 3 years ago did exactly the same thing. Paid for his wife's land, built the big house, bought more land and built a family restaurant as well. We were all telling him to be very very carefull but he assumed because he had all the correct leases his investments where safe....WRONG.

Even here in Thailand posesion is 9/10ths of the law and at the end of the day...he got nothing.

And believe me, he fought tooth and nail to get it all back, the best he got was the court ordered his ex wife not to sell untill the lease expired. She was more than happy to do that.

Another poster on this thread is right, you will find all the farang contracts in a big bag at the land office, when it comes to land, you have no rights unless you are a big company.

It works for retirees as they only want to live there for a period of time so there is no one to kick them out...but a Thai wife, she will win every time.

Sorry to be pesamistic mate but I know a few farangs that have been stung this way. If you don't trust your wife enough, don't buy her land unless you can walk away and take the loss.