Turkey says world must recognise East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital

[dexterm]

8 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Yes, that is correct, they have no issues with Jews living in the USA, they just want to annihilate Jews living in Israel .

  Agreed, Palestinians are fighting against Israelis and they have no problem with Jewish non Israelis

I think you have a somewhat elastic relationship with the truth.

 

The Palestinians have a problem with Zionism not Judaism.

 

I have fed the trolls enough tonight. Goodbye.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by dexterm

[isaanbanhou]

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I think you have a somewhat elastic relationship with the truth.

The Palestinians have a problem with Zionism not Judaism.

 

..and that is what I said , Palestinians have a problem with Jews living in Israel

I cannot see how you can suggest that I am "elastic with the truth" when you say the same thing that I said

 

[JemJem]

53 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

World tells Turkey

 

“We don’t take orders from fascist governments”. 

 

As an anti-fascist Turkish person, I can understand you. But, unfortunately, the West doesn't say such a thing.

 

Erdogan and his AKP party keep dragging Turkey to new lows and also pose a security danger to the region, but the West is sadly mostly turning a blind eye to the fascism and the various human rights violations in Turkey. They are still 'doing business' with this fascist government (various business and even military deals).

 

Will this turning-a-blind-eye change any time soon ? I doubt it very much.

 

Erdogan is using the Jerusalem issue (sadly successfully, I am guessing) to control/bolster his base, and to divert attention from the worsening economy.

Edited December 15, 2017 by JemJem

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

The racist supremacist ideology of Zionism is the root cause of the entire conflict. Something you never even question, so don't lecture me about double standards.

 

You keep going on about racism, although you are the one being doubly racist by suggesting that Jews are White people and that White people therefore should not move to live in Arab Countries .

   

[Thorgal]

28 minutes ago, sanemax said:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876

 

Instead of using tabloids as ultimate proof:

 

 

[cyberfarang]

Simple. Tell the whole lot to peace off. Who cares?

[Morch]

9 hours ago, dexterm said:

I guess you conveniently missed a link to your racist fantasy.

 

Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist more than 20 years ago. They are still waiting for Israel to reciprocate.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

 

The one who ignores facts or even denies them is you.

 

The facts are that the Palestinian follow up and adherence to the letter were not quite what you claim. Even after the Clinton bending their arm some, there were (and there are) ongoing contradictory statements and dragging of feet with anything that had to do with this. Arafat himself, and other Palestinian leaders spoke differently in-front of  Palestinian or Arab supporters. Deny it all your will, ignore it all you will - doesn't change facts or make your misleading presentation correct. This issue (like all the ones your repetitive bring up) was addressed many a times in the past.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Morch

[Morch]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

Well last time I looked it was Abbas head of the Palestinian Authority in attendance this week at the conference in Istanbul. Maybe you are confused.

 

Keep up to speed. Your Zionist apologist manual is out of date.
 
"Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

 

The new document states that Hamas is not seeking war with the Jewish people - only with the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.

 

Abbas's official term in office ended years ago. Last elections were held 2005. In terms of popular support and approval ratings, Abbas doesn't score high, and things been that way for a long while now. Guess you look at what you want to look, when it suits.

 

As for your intentionally misleading presentation of Hamas views - even the link provided includes this "Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders without recognising Israel or ceding any rights". Not quite what you advertise - Hamas is "wiling" to consider accepting a tactical improvement of situation vs. Israel. Nothing more.

 

If that's not good enough, here's more:

 

We Will Wipe Out Israel, Not Disarm, Says Hamas Leader in Gaza

http://www.newsweek.com/hamas-gaza-leader-we-will-wipe-out-israel-not-disarm-689585

 

And the latest addition:

Quote

"...No superpower is capable of offering Jerusalem to Israel, there is no Israel that it should have a capital named Jerusalem...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians/hamas-will-reverse-trumps-jerusalem-move-leader-tells-gaza-rally-idUSKBN1E80VE

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Morch

[DaddyWarbucks]

The absurd contention that Palestine never existed is the central lie at the heart of Zionism.

That, along with the ridiculous claim that Judea was a gift of God to the Jews is the excuse and justification for the displacement of the indigenous population and the ongoing expansion of Eretz Israel.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

Only thing coming out of Turkey with which I can agree.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

I think you have a somewhat elastic relationship with the truth.

 

The Palestinians have a problem with Zionism not Judaism.

 

I have fed the trolls enough tonight. Goodbye.

 

 

 

Many a  Palestinian leader engaged in expressing outright anti-Semitic views, sentiment and conspiracy theories. Quite easy to find if one isn't actively trying to ignore them. The same goes for Palestinian media and education system. Much more so in Arabic, compared to English. These are facts, as much as they are inconvenient, or do not fit the image you are trying to market.

 

Without even going for the supposed hardcore element, here are a couple of Abbas himself (disregarding his infamous doctoral thesis):

 

Abbas Repeats Debunked Claim That Rabbis Called to Poison Palestinian Water in Brussels Speech
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.726657

 

And here's one taken from his speech mentioned in the OP:

 

Palestinian President Accuses Jews of ‘Counterfeiting History and Religion,’ Claims Qur’an Says They ‘Fabricate Truth’

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/251604/palestinian-president-accuses-jews-of-counterfeiting-history-and-religion-claims-quran-says-they-fabricate-truth

 

Abbas’s Anti-Semitism Is a Roadblock Toward Peace in Israel

http://www.newsweek.com/elliott-abrams-abbass-anti-semitism-roadblock-toward-peace-israel-749148?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=yahoo_news&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news

 

 

 

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

The absurd contention that Palestine never existed is the central lie at the heart of Zionism.

 

Palestine as a Country , a Country with borders , President or King , has never existed .

A country called Palestine which has been recognised as a Country by the rest of the world has never existed .

   That is a fact, it isnt a lie

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, dexterm said:

The racist supremacist ideology of Zionism is the root cause of the entire conflict. Something you never even question, so don't lecture me about double standards.

 

 

On the whole I agree with you, but by conflating Zionism with racism you are giving the opposition ammunition.

Judaism is no more a "race" than "Christianity" is.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

The absurd contention that Palestine never existed is the central lie at the heart of Zionism.

That, along with the ridiculous claim that Judea was a gift of God to the Jews is the excuse and justification for the displacement of the indigenous population and the ongoing expansion of Eretz Israel.

 

 

The UN partition plan, which was accepted by one of them sides, did acknowledge two states and two people. Why the need to post lies?

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

 

That, along with the ridiculous claim that Judea was a gift of God to the Jews is the excuse and justification for the displacement of the indigenous population and the ongoing expansion of Eretz Israel.

Are you aware that Judea was a predominantly Jewish area, before the Romans enslaved and killed them, 2000 years ago ?

   You need to bare that in mind, when talking about the indigenous population .

It was Jewish land, long before Islam came along , some thousand years later

[DaddyWarbucks]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Are you aware that Judea was a predominantly Jewish area, before the Romans enslaved and killed them, 2000 years ago ?

   You need to bare that in mind, when talking about the indigenous population .

It was Jewish land, long before Islam came along , some thousand years later

And the Americas also had their native inhabitants thousands of years ago.

Are we to give it back to them based on that claim?

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

And the Americas also had their native inhabitants thousands of years ago.

Are we to give it back to them based on that claim?

I didnt make any claims , just put some historical facts into the equation .

You did mention Jews "displacing Judeas indigenous population" and I just pointed ted out that Jews are Judeas indigenous population and I didnt make any claims at all

[Thorgal]

 
The UN partition plan, which was accepted by one of them sides, did acknowledge two states and two people. Why the need to post lies?

Well, Israel didn’t include Jerusalem as part of their territory back in 1948.

They only occupied it illegally since the 1967 war.

Convention of Geneva prohibits to move and bring in civilians into military occupied territories.

From Turkish perspective it’s correct to relate Jerusalem to the capital of Palestine. Same same as during the Ottoman Empire, where Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together for centuries without segregation.

Furthermore, not wise to correlate Israel to UN affairs...


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Abbas's official term in office ended years ago. Last elections were held 2005. In terms of popular support and approval ratings, Abbas doesn't score high, and things been that way for a long while now. Guess you look at what you want to look, when it suits.

 

As for your intentionally misleading presentation of Hamas views - even the link provided includes this "Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders without recognising Israel or ceding any rights". Not quite what you advertise - Hamas is "wiling" to consider accepting a tactical improvement of situation vs. Israel. Nothing more.

 

If that's not good enough, here's more:

 

We Will Wipe Out Israel, Not Disarm, Says Hamas Leader in Gaza

http://www.newsweek.com/hamas-gaza-leader-we-will-wipe-out-israel-not-disarm-689585

 

And the latest addition:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians/hamas-will-reverse-trumps-jerusalem-move-leader-tells-gaza-rally-idUSKBN1E80VE

 

 

 

So now you are presenting as gospel unofficial statements from a closed meeting reported in the Times of Israel.

And you accuse me of spin.

 

I'll stick with the on the record official Hamas charter, thank you.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Well, Israel didn’t include Jerusalem as part of their territory back in 1948.

They only occupied it illegally since the 1967 war.

Convention of Geneva prohibits to move and bring in civilians into military occupied territories.

From Turkish perspective it’s correct to relate Jerusalem to the capital of Palestine. Same same as during the Ottoman Empire, where Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together for centuries without segregation.

Furthermore, not wise to correlate Israel to UN affairs...


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Do make up your mind which nonsense argument you're pushing.

 

If you wish to uphold the "sanctity" or the importance of adherence to the relevant UN resolution and partition plan, then the main party in the wrong would be the Arabs/Palestinians, who rejected it out of hand.

 

Similarly, not that many (or any) objections relating to the post-1948 occupation and annexation of Jerusalem and the West Bank by Jordan. Because, apparently, adhering to rules and conventions is something expected only of Israel.

 

The so-called  "Turkish perspective", or Erdogan supposed dreams about bringing back the Ottoman Empire are irrelevant. There was no Palestinian state under the Ottomans, and Palestinians (if they even clearly defined themselves as such) were not the sovereign. There would have been no Turkish/Ottoman embassy in Jerusalem under these conditions.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

So now you are presenting as gospel unofficial statements from a closed meeting reported in the Times of Israel.

And you accuse me of spin.

 

I'll stick with the on the record official Hamas charter, thank you.

 

Are you for real? These were but two examples. One of them in full public view. There are others. Even more if one reviews sources in Arabic and includes other Palestinian leaders. So yes, not only spins out of you, but lame deflection as well. What you wish to stick with is irrelevant, considering your expressed position of refusing to acknowledge anything which might reflect negatively on the Palestinian side.

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I'll stick with the on the record official Hamas charter, thank you.

The Hamas Charter of 2017 that calls for the destruction of Israel and the whole land to be Arab Islamic Palestine ?

[dexterm]

44 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Palestine as a Country , a Country with borders , President or King , has never existed .

A country called Palestine which has been recognised as a Country by the rest of the world has never existed .

   That is a fact, it isnt a lie

Well, that's all very odd because 4 of Israel's Prime Ministers (Allon,Rabin,Sharon,Olmert) and the current President (Rivlin) all have Palestine written on their birth certificates.
 
The 6 others were born in Russia, Poland, or Ukraine.
 
And only one, Netanyahu, was born in Israel (after of course Zionists renamed Palestine).

 

[Thorgal]

The Hamas Charter of 2017 that calls for the destruction of Israel and the whole land to be Arab Islamic Palestine ?

Another debunking...


Article 31 from Hamas charter:

“As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).”



Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[the guest]

Religion should be abolished, a load of wish-wash nonsense! If everyone came to the world without religion we would be equals, and there wouldn't be some much war going on.

 

 

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Well, that's all very odd because 4 of Israel's Prime Ministers (Allon,Rabin,Sharon,Olmert) and the current President (Rivlin) all have Palestine written on their birth certificates. 
 

Although those Birth certificates were British birth certificates and not Palestinian birth certificates and the location of birth was just recorded as mandatory Palestine .

   The land was British held territory at the time , it wasnt a Palestinian Country

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Another debunking...


Article 31 from Hamas charter:

“As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).”



Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

That is not "debunking", but deflecting and obfuscating.

 

The Hamas does call for Israel's destruction. The Hamas does support the future state of Palestine being run according to Islamic ideas.

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Another debunking...


Article 31 from Hamas charter:

“As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).”



Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

That is a very small charter , containing just one paragraph .

Suprised that they didnt write more than just one paragraph

Anyway, As ALL Israelis have to join the IDF for three years , that counts as baring arms

[DaddyWarbucks]

1 hour ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

The absurd contention that Palestine never existed is the central lie at the heart of Zionism.

That, along with the ridiculous claim that Judea was a gift of God to the Jews is the excuse and justification for the displacement of the indigenous population and the ongoing expansion of Eretz Israel.

 

 

1 hour ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

And the Americas also had their native inhabitants thousands of years ago.

Are we to give it back to them based on that claim?

 

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

I didnt make any claims , just put some historical facts into the equation .

You did mention Jews "displacing Judeas indigenous population" and I just pointed ted out that Jews are Judeas indigenous population and I didnt make any claims at all

You didn't put any historical facts into the equation and you misquoted me to boot.