Passport renewal service

[Mark1066]

17 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Good point. Thai bank cards cannot be used, Liverpool will only process UK cards.

 

You are right in saying that there is no charge for the transaction and I know other agents, who expect to use their card, do not charge.

I was really annoyed about it because all it says on their website is that you can use their card and “pay the cash” to them - no indication of a massive fee for doing so. By the time I found that out, they already had my passport and it would have been difficult for me to get them to post it back in time for me to do the renewal myself.

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

There is no way that biometrics ie retina pattern, facial dimensions etc. can be obtained from a passport sized photograph, the resolution is too small. It would be much better that the Passport people ask for a 10 x 8 at 720 dpi, or a high res jpg file. They could then reduce the size to fit on the passport.

I appreciate that you were responding to an earlier post and that information which you gave was basically correct.

 

However, FYI …  The ePassport is a traditional passport that has an electronic microprocessor embedded within the passport (normally on the reverse of the holder’s data page).

 

These passports are often referred to as biometric passports but in fact the ‘chip’ does not hold true biometric information relating to holder’s height, weight, facial characteristics, iris pattern, or fingerprints etc. 

 

The information which held on the chip is the same as that given at the bottom of the passport data page between the <<< >>>>, plus a copy of the holder’s photo.  This information is encrypted and can only be read with special scanners that enable boarder control agencies to verify the identity of the passport holder.  The encrypted data on the chip also make it more difficult to forge the passport.

[OJAS]

On 1/12/2018 at 9:42 AM, Mattd said:

The biometrics are taken off the photo the applicant provides, the photos must be to the criteria on the Government website.

This is one danger of using an agent, as if they are not correct the whole application will fail

At least an equally great danger of using an agent, I think, is that HMPO could well make mistakes with personal and date details in a new passport, which the agent might not be detect when signing it off on your behalf upon collection - meaning that you would need to start all over again with a fresh application at additional cost.

[Mattd]

19 hours ago, wgdanson said:

There is no way that biometrics ie retina pattern, facial dimensions etc. can be obtained from a passport sized photograph, the resolution is too small. It would be much better that the Passport people ask for a 10 x 8 at 720 dpi, or a high res jpg file. They could then reduce the size to fit on the passport.

The photo and the biodata are embedded in to the chip and the photo within the chip is used together with the camera at the e-gate, this camera has facial recognition software that compares certain facial features for ID authentication.

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, Mattd said:

The photo and the biodata are embedded in to the chip and the photo within the chip is used together with the camera at the e-gate, this camera has facial recognition software that compares certain facial features for ID authentication.

Sorry Mattd but the e-Gate does not work in the way that you described.

 

When the passport (photo page) is placed into the e-Gate scanner several things happen and the process I describe below happens very quickly.

 

Firstly, the scanner reads the information at the bottom of the page between the <<<< >>>> and convert that information into digital format. 

 

Secondly, the scanner reads the encrypted information held on the microchip that is embedded within the passport – this information is a duplicate of the information held at the bottom of the phot page between <<<< >>>>>, plus a digital copy of the passport holder’s photo. 

 

Thirdly, the computer system compares both sets of information to ensure that they are identical, with the exception of the digital photo as that will be dealt with later.

 

Fourthly, the information acquired from the microchip is simultaneously sent to the various law enforcement agencies (immigration, customs and police) and their computer systems check to see if anything is known relating to passport holder.

 

If the initial scans are identical and nothing untoward is known about the passport holder an immigration officer (usually sitting in a booth within the immigration area) will have a 'green light' displayed on his/her screen together with the digital image from the passport microchip and an image from a CCTV camera at the e-Gate.  If the IO is satisfied that the encrypted digital image held on the passport microchip resembles the CCTV image of the of the passport holder, the IO pushes a button to open the e-Gate.  If there is a problem the IO leaves the e-Gate closed and alerts a colleague to investigate.

[Mattd]

On 1/13/2018 at 5:20 PM, 007 RED said:

Sorry Mattd but the e-Gate does not work in the way that you described.

Really, then the good old UK Government is blatantly lying then (not that it would surprise!)

'To help speed up your time at passport control, there are now ePassport gates at all major airports in the UK. ePassport gates are automated, where a passport reader and camera, rather than a border officer, will verify your identity and check your ‘chipped’ passport.

The gates use facial recognition technology to compare your face to the photograph recorded on the ‘chip’ in your passport. Once the check is made successfully, the gate opens automatically for you to walk through.'

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/using-epassport-gates-airport-border-control

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Mattd

[OJAS]

48 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Really, then the good old UK Government is blatantly lying then (not that it would surprise!)

'To help speed up your time at passport control, there are now ePassport gates at all major airports in the UK. ePassport gates are automated, where a passport reader and camera, rather than a border officer, will verify your identity and check your ‘chipped’ passport.

The gates use facial recognition technology to compare your face to the photograph recorded on the ‘chip’ in your passport. Once the check is made successfully, the gate opens automatically for you to walk through.'

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/using-epassport-gates-airport-border-control

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-egates-at-heathrow-airport-signal-future-of-expedited-travel

 

And this announcement, too, would be tantamount to "economy with the truth" if the following quote from it were to be believed!

 

"Border Force officers monitor the system and any travellers rejected by the gates are directed to the staffed clearance desks to be seen by an officer."

 

On 1/13/2018 at 5:20 PM, 007 RED said:

If the initial scans are identical and nothing untoward is known about the passport holder an immigration officer (usually sitting in a booth within the immigration area) will have a 'green light' displayed on his/her screen together with the digital image from the passport microchip and an image from a CCTV camera at the e-Gate.  If the IO is satisfied that the encrypted digital image held on the passport microchip resembles the CCTV image of the of the passport holder, the IO pushes a button to open the e-Gate.  If there is a problem the IO leaves the e-Gate closed and alerts a colleague to investigate.

 

Well, all I can say is that the only booths I could see at the Eurostar terminal in Paris (where I first used an e-gate a few months ago) appeared to contain officers who were checking passports manually. In any case there really isn't sufficient space there for another booth within eyeshot of the e-gates to accommodate an officer to press green and red buttons (the whole area was pretty cramped as it was)!

Edited January 15, 2018 by OJAS

[007 RED]

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:19 AM, Mattd said:

Really, then the good old UK Government is blatantly lying then (not that it would surprise!)

'To help speed up your time at passport control, there are now ePassport gates at all major airports in the UK. ePassport gates are automated, where a passport reader and camera, rather than a border officer, will verify your identity and check your ‘chipped’ passport.

The gates use facial recognition technology to compare your face to the photograph recorded on the ‘chip’ in your passport. Once the check is made successfully, the gate opens automatically for you to walk through.'

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/using-epassport-gates-airport-border-control

 

Facial recognition systems (FRS) were used in the early versions of e-Gates but unfortunately they proved to be only 40% accurate/reliable which resulted in a large number of false rejections, long queues and unacceptable delays. 

 

The biggest problem with FRS is that the algorithms used to compare faces (photo v CCTV) are all too often designed to cater for a particular gender or nationalities.  It was found that they do not respond very well to recognising women, young people or non-caucasians.  It was also found that as the passport photo is valid for 10 years, people’s feature can change (in some cases quite dramatically) within that time frame resulting in incorrect results being given.  

 

As a result, the FRS capability was abandoned in favour of having an IO doing the facial comparison. It is envisaged that within the next few years FRS will be reintroduced once the system can be made reliable.

 

You may also recall that the Iris Recognition Immigration System (IRIS) facility which was introduced at most UK airports in 2004 was also subsequently decommissioned because passengers often found it difficult to use and it gave to many false rejections which resulted in long queues.

 

On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 10:07 AM, OJAS said:

Well, all I can say is that the only booths I could see at the Eurostar terminal in Paris (where I first used an e-gate a few months ago) appeared to contain officers who were checking passports manually. In any case there really isn't sufficient space there for another booth within eyeshot of the e-gates to accommodate an officer to press green and red buttons (the whole area was pretty cramped as it was)!

I cannot speak directly for exactly where the IO who is operating the facial comparison actually sits at every immigration location, but I can assure you that one officer assigned to that task and is located within the immigration area. 

 

At BHX for example the IO is located in the very right-hand booth and passengers who have cleared the e-Gate will pass behind him/her on their way to the exit and see the screen he/she uses.  At LHR and LGW the IO is located in a back office.

 

The one officer can oversea up to 10 e-Gates at any one time, hence the through put at the e-Gate is considerably higher than that of the normal face-to-face check.

[Mattd]

3 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

As a result, the FRS capability was abandoned in favour of having an IO doing the facial comparison. It is envisaged that within the next few years FRS will be reintroduced once the system can be made reliable.

 

3 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

The one officer can oversea up to 10 e-Gates at any one time, hence the through put at the e-Gate is considerably higher than that of the normal face-to-face check.

Seems that their website needs updating then!

 

It makes me wonder why the UK uses this type of system if it still requires the human interface.

Surely it would make more sense for a system that works and doesn't need a human continuously overseeing it, in reality as it stands now, the British Passport cannot be described as Biometric in the true sense of the word.

 

If an officer is tasked to oversee 10 e-Gates at one time then I'd imagine that there is a high probability of mistakes happening, especially at busy times.

 

I assume there is some reason why we do not use fingerprints as the biometric, at least until the technology for FRS is advanced enough to be reliable?

Singapore have recently introduced this for certain Nationalities when departing and it seems to work very well.

[OJAS]

19 hours ago, Mattd said:

 

Seems that their website needs updating then!

 

It makes me wonder why the UK uses this type of system if it still requires the human interface.

Surely it would make more sense for a system that works and doesn't need a human continuously overseeing it, in reality as it stands now, the British Passport cannot be described as Biometric in the true sense of the word.

 

If an officer is tasked to oversee 10 e-Gates at one time then I'd imagine that there is a high probability of mistakes happening, especially at busy times.

 

I assume there is some reason why we do not use fingerprints as the biometric, at least until the technology for FRS is advanced enough to be reliable?

Singapore have recently introduced this for certain Nationalities when departing and it seems to work very well.

It would appear that the egates at Heathrow tend not to be available for use after 11pm if this article is to be believed:-

 

https://www.ft.com/content/c3035e14-89a4-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787

 

The only inference which I can draw from this (assuming, of course, that the late Border Force shift at Heathrow is not staffed by a bunch of sadists) is that some form of human interface is, indeed, required in connection with the operation of the egates.

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by OJAS

[sonos99]

You don't need a UK debit or credit card. I used one issued by a NZ bank and had no problems. 

[Somtamnication]

Good to know. Mine will be a Thai based **credit** card. 2000b is highway robbery.