The Bar Question

[wimbledon88]

Please don't judge me! I just want to know whether to tell the truth, lie or "gloss over it"!

I met my GF in a bar. She had been working there for 4 months. We have been together now for 16 months. She stopped working 3 months after we met. She now helps out in a friend's hair salon, but is essentially supported by me. She did however make enough money from her previous work to build a house for her family,which is in her name. I'm a teacher and have lived in Bangkok since July 2005.

I want to take her to the UK for a family wedding in May. I have a full-time teaching contract and will be using my annual leave, which means the visit will be limited to 10 days. We will be staying with friends and family in the UK.

When applying for the UK Visitor's Visa should I be honest about where/how we met and her previous employment? Or should I not mention it at all? Before the bar, she worked as a waitress and department store assistant for 5 years. Is any hint of bar work the kiss of death for a Visa, or is it worse to lie?

Thanks for your help.

[JELLIS1000]

We will be handing in out application about mid Feb and we are going to be honest. I have been told that its the best way. Met my Mrs in a bar nearly 4 years ago etc, finished working at the bat a month after we had met.

Honesty being the best...blah blah blah.

Jimmy

[topfield]

Please don't judge me! I just want to know whether to tell the truth, lie or "gloss over it"!

I met my GF in a bar. She had been working there for 4 months. We have been together now for 16 months. She stopped working 3 months after we met. She now helps out in a friend's hair salon, but is essentially supported by me. She did however make enough money from her previous work to build a house for her family,which is in her name. I'm a teacher and have lived in Bangkok since July 2005.

I want to take her to the UK for a family wedding in May. I have a full-time teaching contract and will be using my annual leave, which means the visit will be limited to 10 days. We will be staying with friends and family in the UK.

When applying for the UK Visitor's Visa should I be honest about where/how we met and her previous employment? Or should I not mention it at all? Before the bar, she worked as a waitress and department store assistant for 5 years. Is any hint of bar work the kiss of death for a Visa, or is it worse to lie?

Thanks for your help.

A friend asked me the same question four years ago. I thought about it and decided that the only way to know something like this is to ask the right person..

In my presence, the friend reluctantly phoned the Visa Section and asked to speak to Mrs Lacey-Smith the Entry Clearance Manager (ECM) giving an assumed name and the asked the following question. "The girl I want to marry and take to England worked in a bar as a prostitute, how will this affect her application ?"

The response from the ECM was shere astonishment . Clearly nobody before had been so frank and open. Mrs Lacey-Smith answered by saying that there was no rule as such preventing the girl from getting a visa (unlike in the USA where prostitutes, pimps and once Communists are on a prohibited list and may not enter the USA) and that as long as the Immigration rules were followed there should be no problem.

What happened ? Predictable ! The first sentence in the refusal notice read : "you worked in the most notorious red light district of Bangkok".......... you can guess the rest.

[JELLIS1000]

89 people viewed this thread but only 2 responded - come on peeps, how about some honesty here then!!!!!

[Mossfinn]

The best advice I can give is to scan through past threads or do a search on this sub-forum, there are differing views but a common theme will be the Embassy generally do not give a hoot where your partner is from, be it Nana or Planet Zog.

What thet do care about is the truth, if you get caught in a lie and they are very good at spotting discrepancies, mis-representations and lies, then it will go ill for not only your application but any future attempt.

My limited advice, tell the truth and let the rest plot its course, if you lie, well it may go wrong, it might just sail thru, the choice is yours.

In any event

Good Luck

Moss

[Artfullmover]

Why would you mention she worked in a Bar??. Why not say you met at the place were you both were and leave the details out. There is no lie to be caught out on and the chances are they will probally conclude she was probaly working there anyway and not pursue the matter. If they want to dig for more then maybe you could tell more but only if it was required to achieve the "Honesty" part.

[Sporting Dog]

Say nothing.

Lie by ommission.

Its too long ago. I would like to believe otherwise but I get the feeling that some in embassies are looking for any reason to say NO to applications.

[Aujuba]

I did a visa to the US for my wife. I chose to be honest and checked the section that she worked as a prostitute in the past. She worked for one year in a bar. I also wrote the name of the bar down. I felt it was the right thing to do at the time. I'm not a liar and can't lie. She got the visa and we had a good time in the US. I don't fear getting a visa for her again. I do regret being honest in that I will probably have to check that same column again which has the word prostitute when we apply for a visa again. We have a daughter together so it probably won't be much of a problem for her.

I feel there is a discriminate issue here in that they ask who has been a 'prostitute' yet they do not ask who has been a 'john' Why? Are there any lawyers out there that see some sort of violation of human rights here? maybe I'm completely wrong about this but I really see it as wrong.

Why don't they ask if you have ever killed another human being? Have ever taken drugs? Most people accept the policy of the embassies because they are not put on the spot. When the day comes that each citizen arriving from abroad must sign a legal statement stating what and what they did not do while abroad, people will quickly realize how wrong the system is.

Cobra Gold may be coming soon. The GIs will be landing in Pattaya to do 'train' This is the world we live in.

By the way, I have never killed another human being but if you have you still can get a visa to England or the US.

Edited January 22, 2007 by Aujuba

[GU22]

I want to take her to the UK for a family wedding in May. I have a full-time teaching contract and will be using my annual leave, which means the visit will be limited to 10 days. We will be staying with friends and family in the UK.

In these circumstances, provided the ECO believes the relationship to be genuine, I see no reason for refusal.

Tell the truth. If the rest of the application is up to standard then her past profession is irrelevent as far as the ECO is concerned. But if you lie, and are found out, no visa.

[drummer]

They do ask that. There is a whole section about people who don't get in - thats what the criminal background check is for. Theres a whole bit about insanity, too. As well as terrorism and drugs. The idea being they don't want people getting in specifically to commit crimes. They don't seem to disallow being a john, but they do disallow being a pimp and anything to do with human trade.

You can make a case that having prostitution illegal creates these problems to begin with - prohibitions on ntural human tendendencies (i.e. sex, drugs, rock+roll, the free flow of information, etc) almost always exacerbate the problem they are attempting to solve - BUT that is not the point. They aren't singling out anything here.

[Aujuba]

Only honest people answer questions honestly. So are you honest or not? I guess by answering we are obviously not suspects.

[Pink Mist]

Not all girls who work in bars go with the customers.

Just say she was working as a "Hostess" in a bar when you met.

The case workers are taught to detect lies through body language and their interviewing training gives them the ability to flush them out.

Dont tell lies, 99% get found out and it wont help your cause if caught.

[Prakanong]

I had a friend who used to be in the Bangkok Embassy (not the Consular section)

An Ex of mine asked him his opinion on this very topic as she was getting married and wanted to go to England.

His advice was to be honest and being an ex bargirl was not a barrier to entry but if caught lieing there might be a problem.

It was a marriage visa she wanted though and not a visitors visa - she is hapily married there now with a new baby and opening a restaurant this month.

I would go with the others though and just do not mention it unless asked and then be totally honest.

[atlastaname]

If she worked in a Department store for 5 years , and there is only a few months gap before her starting in this hairdressing salon, i am not sure its neccessary to mention it at all. You could have met in a restaurant , or shopping or any manner of ways. Although there is no bar from bar girls getting visas , its not looked favourably on in practise so if you can get away without mentioning it (and in your case i think you can) then you7 should . Presumably the dept store gave her wage slips so backing up her story. Also she has land in her name which is good.

But i think the strongest point in your favour is the usually problematic "reason to return" . In this case YOU are that reason as you work in Thailand.

[paully]

Being honest in the application is a fair start.

The other problem she may have is that of evidence showing she intends to return to Thailand after the holiday. Her friend at the hair salon could give a letter saying she is employed there, even if it's part time, although 'helping out' is not much evidence of full-time employment. You can also use the fact that you're going with her and you have the intention to return with her to Thailand to resume your teaching job. Remember to include your work permit with the documents at the Visa Centre.

[the scouser]

We don't want this thread drifting off and becoming a discussion of bar girls in general. The OP has stated what his girlfriend has told him, and, for the purposes of this thread, we'll take it at face value.

Scouse.

[aussiestyle1983]

You might have to lie about this one mate. But make sure your come up with a good story that is easy to believe and you both can stick to. Also remember, if you decide to take her there permanently one day, this will be on her file so it will be too late to change the story.

You will only need to change the details about meeting her in a bar, think of all the other posibilities.............

[Aujuba]

I would say other factors might also affect the embassies decision. If the girl you are applying for is a lot younger than you and also a bargirl the embassy might look at that questionably. If she is close in age, you've known her for a while, you have married in LOS,or have a child together things might be more positive.

[topfield]

I would say other factors might also affect the embassies decision. If the girl you are applying for is a lot younger than you and also a bargirl the embassy might look at that questionably. If she is close in age, you've known her for a while, you have married in LOS,or have a child together things might be more positive.

Agree 100 percent. If you marry the girl and know her a while then you will surely get the visa and they will forgive the indiscretions

Otherwise doubtful.

[ProThaiExpat]

In my view, getting a visa is similar to a presentation or sales job. Your attempting to sell the officer that your g/f "has a compelling reason to return" and in doing so, obviously you will present all evidence you can that reflects favorably on this issue, as it is the overrriding one and the one the embassy publicly acknowledges is the crucial test, the one you must convince the examiner on.

How many of us have prepared a resume and not included a short employment of months that turned out bad when we assemble our work history? Lying is one thing, ommissions are another.

The risk of being found out and black listed is another major factor to consider. A conviction for prostitution is easily discoverable in this day of computers. However, if one worked in a bar for a few months and could characterize ones activiites there as promiscuous consensual sex with generous tourists, it is another matter entirely.

Pitfalls to the unwary abound. How does a hairdresser assistant or department store clerk amass enough money to buy property? A practised ready answer delivered without nervousness must be done otherwise the interview will be tainted from that moment on.

Why is prostituton dwelled on. Because prostititues try to get into western countries to ply their trade at higher rates. Clearly, posturing ones application and documents to clearly convince that is not the case, regardless of prior work history in prostitution is the key.

There are posts in TV that maintain that any Thai lady who speaks English well and does not have a documented explanation how their English was learned is inititally thought to have learned their English in prostitution or bar hostessing. This is the issue to overcome, as is the issue of wealth without a documented means of earning it legally.

As far as the civil rights issue question posed in a prior post, visa granting is the sole perogative of the executive branch of governemnt and the courts have long held that no rights attach, pure unfretted discretion not subject to judicial review. In other words, no rights, no fairness and no appeal. Some countries, like the UK do allow appeals it seems, but many do not.

In the U.S., the congress has the power, and has used it, to overturn the old IRS rule that the burden of proof lies with the taxpayer in an audit. Not so with a visa. The burden of proof to convice lies with the applicant and the visa officer is mandated by executive policy to enter the interview with the mindset that the applicant "will" overstay and it is up to the applicant to turn that mind set around. We all wish it were different.

In summary, if your g/fs entire "presentation" makes it clear that she has not recently nor currently works as a prostitute and has a "compelling reason to return" to Thailand, you have a very good chane of geting the visa, regarless of what she may have done in the past, unless of course a conviction is involved.

[Mahout Angrit]

In my view..............

You will get no better advice and help than that has been written here by ProThaiExpat, read and act on every paragraph..... and good luck

[IMA_FARANG]

Please don't judge me! I just want to know whether to tell the truth, lie or "gloss over it"!

I met my GF in a bar. She had been working there for 4 months. We have been together now for 16 months. She stopped working 3 months after we met. She now helps out in a friend's hair salon, but is essentially supported by me. She did however make enough money from her previous work to build a house for her family,which is in her name. I'm a teacher and have lived in Bangkok since July 2005.

I want to take her to the UK for a family wedding in May. I have a full-time teaching contract and will be using my annual leave, which means the visit will be limited to 10 days. We will be staying with friends and family in the UK.

When applying for the UK Visitor's Visa should I be honest about where/how we met and her previous employment? Or should I not mention it at all? Before the bar, she worked as a waitress and department store assistant for 5 years. Is any hint of bar work the kiss of death for a Visa, or is it worse to lie?

Thanks for your help.

No do not attempt to lie about it. To attempt to lie or cover it up is the immediate "kiss-of-death" to the attempt at a visa.

Beyond that the situation is that the chance of a visa depends strongly on how the interview and such goes. If your girlfriend is open and convincing about her past and her desire to get/stay out of that life, she has a chance. You can be sure that the people at your embessy know the situation in Thailand and the reasons why women are often forced by economic circumstances to work in the bars.

It will also help if you can convince them of your ability and desire to do what is necessary to take care of her when she gets to your country.

But mostly, the important point will be how well they believe her and her desire to avoid returning to the bar life.

Secondly, and they will never tell you this openly, her age makes a big difference.

A young woman (under 30) who was a bar hostess that applies for a visa may be denied a visa.

A woman over 30 with the same history may be given a visa, assuming all the rest is equal.

There are no gaurentees that she will be given a visa, but attempting to lie will almost always mean no visa.

P.S. From my experience at the American embessy in Bangkok, it is the Thai women at the embessy who will give your girlfriend the toghest grilling about her past. I assume that this is true of the other embessies also. Many of those Thai women have gone through college, and have what is to a Thai a "good" job. Yes. they are jealous that your girlfiend is getting a chance to go to another country, and they can't. Just a word to the wise.

Edited January 23, 2007 by IMA_FARANG

[Pink Mist]

agian I say dont lie these people trained to detect them

[atlastaname]

Reading through all these long posts my feeling is one of sadness. What the hel_l does it matter if she is or isn't a bar girl? Unbelievable.

I think you are all frightening the life out of the OP. It would be different if she had only been a bar girl and nothing else, but according to the OP she worked in a dept store for 5 years , bar girl 4 months(or is it 4+3 =7), and now hairdresser. The Embassy don't need to know her day to day activities for the last 10 years , they just need to know what she has been doing in Thailand. Well for almost all the time she worked in a dept store and now she is a hairdresser. You met whilst shopping , thats it . They will never know if you don't tell them as long as she has a modicum of common sense at the interview.

I feel very sad for the OP that it matters one iota what his girlfreind did or didn't do in the past. She has a lot going for her in this particular case and i think if you put together a well documented folder she has a good chance.Unfortunately , as with all visa applications, you are to an extent at the whim of the ECO on the day , but that is a weakness in our far from perfect visa system that you cannot have any control over.

[GU22]

Reading through all these long posts my feeling is one of sadness. What the hel_l does it matter if she is or isn't a bar girl? Unbelievable.......I feel very sad for the OP that it matters one iota what his girlfreind did or didn't do in the past.

Whilst I cannot speak for the USA or Australia, as far as the UK is concerned it does not matter if an applicant once worked in a bar. All the factors concerning an application are looked at, and if everything else is ok her past profession is irrelevent.

How many more times do peole have to be told;

Don't lie!

Tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[atlastaname]

GU22,

In theory yes , but then how do you explain Topfield's friends's experience where he was refused it seems because she was a bar girl. Are you suggesting he made this up?

Common sense dictates that people are prejudice to various degrees. You have lovely people like myself who are not prejudice at all, and others who are to varying degrees.And a few who are right pigs. Its obvious surely that some ECO's will automatically view a bar girl (if its declared) with disapproval (some people are very prudish you know) and this will consciously or subconsciously affect their decision. If you had 100 low paid clerical workers and 100 bar girls , all on the face of it with no reason to return, you are surely not suggesting that as many of the bar girls would get visas as the clerical ones. Of course not, and the reason is prejudice.

So although on paper what you say is close to the truth , in the real world as with many things, it is different.

About ALWAYS telling the truth , well again its a good idea generally, but use it with discretion. There are some people who would never get visas to come here if they stuck to the truth, and yet by lying they have got them. Surely for them you must concede lying was the right way. Again as with all things in life, occasionally lying,(or as i suggested above, ommitting to mention a detail rather than lying itself) actually can be of benefit . I am not advocating it in most cases, but in the case of the OP where for most of her adult life she worked in a department store, then why on earth mention a few months in a bar? They are not supernatural you know , they cannot find this out unless there is proof of it somewhere. In her case if she is smart at interview (it may not go to interview anyway) there is no way they could know she was a bar girl unless she told them . I can't see how mentioning it would help her , and it may well harm her instead.

[Mahout Angrit]

I am not advocating it in most cases, but in the case of the OP where for most of her adult life she worked in a department store, then why on earth mention a few months in a bar?

The lady in this case will presumably be using the fact that she owns the house that her parents now live in as a "reason to return to Thailand" As her parents live in the house it can be assumed they dont have one of their own (ie. they are not rich).

They are not supernatural you know , they cannot find this out unless there is proof of it somewhere. In her case if she is smart at interview (it may not go to interview anyway) there is no way they could know she was a bar girl unless she told them . I can't see how mentioning it would help her , and it may well harm her instead.

It wouldn't need the most astute ECO to question how a department store worker amassed enough capital to purchase a house So she had better be really smart Tell the truth

[GU22]

GU22,

In theory yes , but then how do you explain Topfield's friends's experience where he was refused it seems because she was a bar girl.

Without seeing the whole refusal notice and details of the application, commenting on individual cases is impossible. However, it is possible, probable in fact, that the applicant's past was only one factor in the refusal. That is the trouble with Topfield's posts; he never tells the whole story.

Are you suggesting he made this up?

Considering the inconsistent and self-contradictory nature of most of his posts, it wouldn't surprise me if he had.

The ECOs at the British and other western embassies are not stupid. They know that the majority of Farang men met their Thai girlfriend in a bar. Obviously, attempting to get a visa for a bar girl one met only a short time ago will probably fail, but if the relationship has been ongoing for some time then, as far as the British visa section is concerned, her past will not be a major factor.

Where we live in the UK there is a large Thai community. From what the girls say most of them have worked in a bar at one time or another. Many of them first came to the UK with a visit visa before returning to Thailand and applying for settlement. If ex-bargirls did not get UK visas then most of these women would not be living in the UK!

[JELLIS1000]

I'm fairly new to this site, since being told about it, I have found it be very informative and honest (in most cases), myself and the Mrs will be applying for our first visitors visa next month, a visit for marraige visa, I live in Thailand and hail from Kent, in my hometown there are is also a large Thai community and at some point everyone of the lovely ladies worked in a bar in Pattaya or Bankok, all of the couples except 1 told the truth at visa interviews (over the years as they are all of varying ages) and all of them got visas, the only 1 that said he met his lady in her laundry whilst travelling around Chiapum was- surprise refused the visa on the 1st attempt, they reapplied, told the truth and that was 3 years ago and they are both happily married and living in the UK, I think the truth is always the best way.

Thanks

Jimmy

[Artfullmover]

I still dont get it, Ive read many responses some with some great info others... well no comment. If you just say you met at the place were you met were is the lie? You would be stupied state up front "she worked ther as a bargirl" any way you look at it what your saying is your both into crime. On the other hand just because you have met a lady a a bar does not implie she is a prostitute. I just dont get why some peoples advice is to lie.

When it come down to stating her employment what is wrong with her working in the hospitality industry. After all a very high percentage of thai girls first meet there partners in that industries enviroment. There are other reasons the girls go to these places other then them to be on the game and get a few bucks. The most likely apart from that one would to meet a foriengner.

I recon to say you met in a bar/restuarant is the best thing to say if its the truth. Why would you say different. How many bullshit storys do you think the embasy staff get along the lines of "I met her in a village while visiting the country side" (RED FLAG I smell bullshit lets dig deeper and catch them out). It happens but how often. These people understand the real world so why drift of from the facts.

I have met a lot of blokes in OZ and Thailand with thai partners and guess what, very very few met there ladys in bars or entertainment areas. You just know most of "how we met stories" are bullshit and Im not even a trained profesional.

Just stick to believable facts with the rest being ommited.

good luck