British dad jailed in Thailand for 'abducting' son who 'asked to be taken away'

[spermwhale]

On 2/25/2018 at 9:56 AM, colinneil said:

Yes i feel for him, but at the same time, what he did was crazy.

He honestly thinks Thai officials would be on his side, no way, Thai mother wins every time.

 

You are incorrect. 

[spermwhale]

On 2/25/2018 at 10:19 AM, MaeJoMTB said:

They never signed.

Are you certain? I thought I read that they did. 

[brewsterbudgen]

The western press coverage is very one-sided. I've known the mother for 13 years and she's a great mum who is doing the best for her son. The interests of the boy should be paramount.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[shy coconut]

22 hours ago, mick01827 said:

Terrible situation for the whole family BUT yet another gofundme page, why not get a loan or sell things that you own to raise the money instead of begging, where has all this begging come from? I would do everything in power to resolve this if I wasin the same position, I definitely wouldn't rely on donations. 

Sorry if this offends anyone, just my opinion. 

I thought to get your Thai wife to the UK you need an income >£18'000 or £86,000 in the bank.

[GinBoy2]

I feel for the guy, but transnational custody cases are wickedly difficult, even when both countries have a functional judicial system.
In this case you have Thailand, who couldn’t even spell the phrase 'rule of law' let alone implement it.

Don't know what be outcome of this will be, but it's probably not good for the Brit.

Not one to advocate law breaking, but in this country, he'd have been better to skip the border with his son and board a flight to England from a neighboring country.

Had he let to British courts fight it out, justice may have been served, but now he's sleeping on the floor of a Thai Monkey House

Good Luck is all I can say

Edited February 26, 2018 by GinBoy2

[CanuckThai]

The best way to get ones head around Thai people, is knowing they are narcissist's in a quasi self inflicted state of  "extreme survival mode".  Good or bad (whatever ones opinion may be), they will survive, as comfortable as they see fit.  Thai culture, being what it is as a face saving at any cost environment, all bets are off, if you're in their way (farang and kids are safe if funds are being received)

[robblok]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The western press coverage is very one-sided. I've known the mother for 13 years and she's a great mum who is doing the best for her son. The interests of the boy should be paramount.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

that they should, but i would say the boy would have been better of in the UK. Especially if its about education and such. But as you know the mom maybe you can provide more insight in the case ?

[brewsterbudgen]

that they should, but i would say the boy would have been better of in the UK. Especially if its about education and such. But as you know the mom maybe you can provide more insight in the case ?

I haven't been in touch with her for a while other than on Facebook. The last time we spoke she was happily settled in Scotland, working hard with a new man. To be honest I thought the boy lived with them there. I believe she has plans to return to Scotland as she considers it home. The only reason she came back to Thailand was for her sister's wedding (to a farang). There must have been a lot more going on!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Dogmatix]

Seems like she only wants cash and probably has no interest in the boy, since she can easily make more. Very sad but that's what is likely to happen if you marry a prostitute.  The father wouldn't be surprised by something like this, if he married a hooker working in Edinburgh but people go into fantasy mode when they go on holiday to an exotic place where they can't understand the language or the culture.

[Gruff]

On 2/25/2018 at 4:27 AM, sanemax said:

Contrary to popular beliefs , being a single Mother on benefits in the U.K, isnt as luxurious as they make it out to be .

    The free housing, could well be a hostel or a run down hotel with other people on benefits

Not if the father has a bit of cash or assets the Court can take from him.

[Gruff]

On 2/25/2018 at 6:43 AM, richard_smith237 said:

But some people are calling the whole field of daisies a pile of shit because they stepped in some...  which does come across as being bitter.

 

I think that’s the point Rob was making.

I think that is just a false perception by those who love to accuse others of being bitter.. Describing someone as ;bitter is grossly misused on this Forum and probably mostly inacurate as well.

[brewsterbudgen]

Seems like she only wants cash and probably has no interest in the boy, since she can easily make more. Very sad but that's what is likely to happen if you marry a prostitute.  The father wouldn't be surprised by something like this, if he married a hooker working in Edinburgh but people go into fantasy mode when they go on holiday to an exotic place where they can't understand the language or the culture.

You couldn't be more wrong. She's been living with another Scottish guy who she met in Scotland for at least 3 years. She's had some good jobs working at golf clubs and most recently for Best Western hotels. She has studied at Edinburgh University and the Open University as well as at Stevenson College. I don't claim to know what precipitated the current situation; all I know is that she and Joleon came back to Thailand for her sister's wedding and had every intention of returning to her home and job in Edinburgh in January.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Gruff]

On 2/25/2018 at 6:57 AM, Baerboxer said:

 

Family courts in England and Wales, are tasked with making decisions that are in the best interests of the child or children when making decisions about their future. Usually, the starting point, is always that the children are better with the mothers. Rightly or wrongly, biased or not, that's their position.

 

Where family courts have shown some questionable judgement is in divorce settlements. They have in many instances moved from the balance towards really favoring the ex wife. Even hearing appeals years after the settlement because the ex wife suddenly wants a slice of her ex's new wealth, even if it was established after the divorce.

 

Ask solicitors in the UK about their experiences with family courts. Most I know speak of unpredictable and irrational interpretations from judges, who are considered somewhat less than the cream of the bench!

 

 

 

But that is quite clearly a lie or the Courts don't think a father is important to the child. A third of all divorced UK fathers lose contact with their kids and much of that is as a result of the Family Court process. Family Courts in UK take the view that he father only needs to buy a McDonalds for their kid once a week or a fortnight.

[Gruff]

21 hours ago, gbswales said:

I get rather fed up of reading about the "rights" of parents - the person whose rights should be paramount is the child's and in the UK (despite what people claim) the rights of the child outweigh the rights of any other party.  UK Family courts generally rule in favour of whatever is in the child's best interests - this is done after assessments have been made by qualified professionals.  I am not saying they get it right 100% of the time but it is the principle of discounting the parents interest in favour of the child that is the important issue.  Children are easily manipulated by either of loving parents but slow calm discussion with professionals trained in dealing with young people will usually bring out their real feelings.  I am not confident at all that this would be the approach in Thailand, or many other countries, where the rights of the child are not treated as the prime consideration.  

 

I know that educationally and future prospects wise the child would undoubtedly be better off in the UK but would not expect a Thai court to think that way.  The thing that should carry more weight is that the child was born in the UK and had never lived in Thailand.  I think that our own government should act quickly in cases like this to ensure that a child is returned so that their future can be dealt with by the courts in the land they were born in - however that is I fear wishful thinking.

 

This is a sad case all round and one I suspect can never have an ending which does not cause somebody pain - just important to make sure the child is not the one in pain.

 

Just because the UK Family Courts say they put the childs interest first does not mean it is true! If it were true there would not be so many Fathers not seeing their kids.

[Gruff]

21 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

I also would never had believed this unless it had happened to me personally. My first English wife had an affair, unbeknown to me at the time, filed for divorce and received legal aid to help turf me out of the family home after she left with our kids.

 

Once the court issued an order that I had to leave the home my then wife was awarded full custody of our dog and cat and even my pet hamster. The few items I did manage to take with me the court issued an order that I had to return them within 5 days after she moved back into the home with the new love of her life and our kids. I was left literally with only the clothes on my back. 

 

Eventually after a long court battle the court awarded me visiting rights for the kids for a few hours on Sundays. Each time I went to collect my children, my wife had her parents and 2 brothers on the scene who would intimidate and shout verbal abuse at me, that after a time was so distressful I was not able to pick up my kids. Went to court again and then my ex-wife moved without giving me a forwarding address. She sent me to hell, I was left financially broke and emotionally broken and after 3 more years of court battles, as a father the struggle to play a major role in the lives of my children hardly improved.

 

 

I really feel for your plight but get ready for a few guys on here to tell you how 'bitter you are though!!

[amykat]

36 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

You couldn't be more wrong. She's been living with another Scottish guy who she met in Scotland for at least 3 years. She's had some good jobs working at golf clubs and most recently for Best Western hotels. She has studied at Edinburgh University and the Open University as well as at Stevenson College. I don't claim to know what precipitated the current situation; all I know is that she and Joleon came back to Thailand for her sister's wedding and had every intention of returning to her home and job in Edinburgh in January.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 Well I am going to make one of those wild generalizations we all love ...and to follow what CanukThai also said a few posts above ...You know how Thais hate to be told NO??  Have you had that experience?  Well maybe she just could not deal with being told she could not bring her son to the wedding and decided she did not have to follow rules, you know, they don't apply to her.  She would lose face, etc.  So she brought him here and then maybe she learned she was in some hot water and did not know what to do, so decided she should not return?  At least not yet, and while thinking about what to do,  and avoiding everything, this happened.

[Paul Catton]

With regard to all facts albeit unsubstantiated to date, the father has done no moral wrong in trying to extract his child from Thailand who apparently had been kidnapped by mother.

The child would appear to be a British citizen through Country of Birth, planning and foremost lineage, also perhaps travelling on U.K. Passport.

Custody arrangements had according to external sources been sanctioned by   Court for the child's habitual residence for which the mother apparently broke by kidnapping the child.

The British Embassy should have been advocating a return of  a national being of minor age who isubect to human trafficking to his home along with his father trying to expediate the same although left-field.

 

Family Law has never been an exercise of finding, truth or best interest of the child regardless how legislation is written.

 

I have been through similar from perceived vaginal ownership of my two youngest children  and had to go through this angst all the way to  the Supreme Court in Sweden. against all outside information  I was successful.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Paul Catton
Insertion

[Paul Catton]

For any barrack room legal scholars you cannot kidnap your own progeny in law. 

[JLCrab]

Well all these personal vignettes are an interesting read but they do not answer the question as to why Mr. Smith and his co-abductor Mr. Felton are now -- or at least as of latest reports -- still  sitting in a Thai jail.

[AmericanSafety]

How was this an abduction if the child has dual citizenship? What am I missing here? Just because the child is currently in Thailand, it doesn't mean the child has to stay in Thailand.

[brewsterbudgen]

Well all these personal vignettes are an interesting read but they do not answer the question as to why Mr. Smith and his co-abductor Mr. Felton are now -- or at least as of latest reports -- still  sitting in a Thai jail.

According to the British press they've been charged with trespass and abduction.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[BEVUP]

9 minutes ago, AmericanSafety said:

How was this an abduction if the child has dual citizenship? What am I missing here? Just because the child is currently in Thailand, it doesn't mean the child has to stay in Thailand.

Does the mother have sole custody, if yes then it's abduction

But on the other hand how did he get the order from the courts, maybe due to him not consenting

Edited February 26, 2018 by BEVUP

[brewsterbudgen]

Does the mother have sole custody, if yes then it's abduction

The father was awarded custody by the British courts. How that affects the legal situation in Thailand, I have no idea. I hope he has a good lawyer.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JLCrab]

5 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

According to the British press they've been charged with trespass and abduction.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yes I realize what are the charges but that ain't much of an answer as to  WHY? charges could be filed in SakNak and then things move swiftly enough so that  they all could be detained at BKK.

[BEVUP]

1 minute ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The father was awarded custody by the British courts. How that affects the legal situation in Thailand, I have no idea. I hope he has a good lawyer.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Ok its been a long thread

[BEVUP]

So Mr Felton must of been with him the whole time if they can lay those charges on him 

But it was 2 days later according to reports

I thought he would of been in the back ground whilst Mr Smith was doing his thing

[tukkytuktuk]

 

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/joe-smith-5

 

[amykat]

In the article that gave the most details, I read, they are still married, they had shared custody, the father kept the boy usually 5 days a week, and as of Feb, the father was given full custody ...before he came to Thailand in other words.

[brewsterbudgen]

In the article that gave the most details, I read, they are still married, they had shared custody, the father kept the boy usually 5 days a week, and as of Feb, the father was given full custody ...before he came to Thailand in other words.

Yes. As I understand it they had an argument about her taking him to Thailand at Christmas and for her sister's wedding. She took him so must have had his passport. Why she decided to stay in Thailand and not return to her home in Scotland, her partner and her job, I have no idea. She has been very settled in Scotland and I will be quite surprised if she, and Joleon, don't return there and hopefully the some sort of agreement with the father can be reached.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Tilacme]

59 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Yes I realize what are the charges but that ain't much of an answer as to  WHY? charges could be filed in SakNak and then things move swiftly enough so that  they all could be detained at BKK.

Have you not grasped the story?  Its alleged abduction which is national.