Usefulness of TOEIC without a degree

[Srinakarin]

Hi everyone,

 

Just looking for any advice from people with first hand experience relevant to our situation, if anyone has any.

 

My wife never finished her degree in accounting as she left Thailand to live in the UK with me in 2000.  Having spent 7 years in England (3 working in retail) she's reached a high level of spoken and written English and did a little translation work too.

 

Now 39, without a degree and lacking recent work experience (except some e-commerce experience at home), she's up against it when applying for work. 

We're well aware that employers here put age, and degree above most else so she's considering taking a TOEIC course and test to provide evidence of her very strong English ability.  JobsDB shows that most positions are looking for under 30 year olds with degree.

 

Has anyone else's partner had any luck in landing a job on the basis of having a good TOEIC score despite academic qualifications and age not being on their side?

 

I know that one way to find out is just to do it then apply for jobs, but it would help to have some idea beforehand whether there's much use in doing so.

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

Fluency in Thai and and near fluency in English will always be an attractive proposition for employers so it certainly won't do her any harm by taking the TOEIC course but a lack of a degree coupled with a lack of practical experience will limit her career options straight away. It's all about what she wants to do so perhaps you can let us know what that is first and I can see if I can help.

P.S. I run a recruitment company. 

[Baerboxer]

Agree with the poster above. Determine which areas she wants to pursue a career in. And maybe look at relevant degrees. 

[blackcab]

Take the help graciously offered by @johnnybangkok.

 

Alternatively, consider approaching reasonably sized businesses that are managed by English speaking foreigners. Such businesses are always looking for Thais who speak English well, who understand our way of thinking and who "get it". For us, a degree means little compared to being able to communicate with and trust someone.

 

I am just such a person. One day a few years ago I was managing a business in Bangkok when a very pleasant Thai lady came in looking for work. She spoke great English because she was married to a man from New Zealand. She also had a pleasant personality.

 

I hired her on the spot and she started work the next day. She too had not finished her Bachelors degree, but after I employed her she went back to uni part time to finish it.

 

Fast forward a few years and now she has an MBA and she runs one of our business units. I have to say she is fantastic at her job, which is very well paid.

 

I've never regretted hiring her. She is proof that a degree isn't everything, and that sometimes you just have to hire someone based on what you feel, not just on the facts.

 

Best hiring decision I ever made.

 

[johnnybangkok]

15 hours ago, blackcab said:

Take the help graciously offered by @johnnybangkok.

 

Alternatively, consider approaching reasonably sized businesses that are managed by English speaking foreigners. Such businesses are always looking for Thais who speak English well, who understand our way of thinking and who "get it". For us, a degree means little compared to being able to communicate with and trust someone.

 

I am just such a person. One day a few years ago I was managing a business in Bangkok when a very pleasant Thai lady came in looking for work. She spoke great English because she was married to a man from New Zealand. She also had a pleasant personality.

 

I hired her on the spot and she started work the next day. She too had not finished her Bachelors degree, but after I employed her she went back to uni part time to finish it.

 

Fast forward a few years and now she has an MBA and she runs one of our business units. I have to say she is fantastic at her job, which is very well paid.

 

I've never regretted hiring her. She is proof that a degree isn't everything, and that sometimes you just have to hire someone based on what you feel, not just on the facts.

 

Best hiring decision I ever made.

 

Sorry people but I think you are misunderstanding me here. I run an executive level recruitment company so it's unlikely that I can be of direct assistance to this lady. I was just offering advice to give her some direction and tips to help her find a role. James - once she has an idea of what she wants to do, just post it back in the forum and I'm sure I'll see the message and will try my best to help. I can perhaps point her in the right direction but may I say the advice from Blackcab above is pretty spot on and is pretty much my sentiments. Take Blackcabs advice but the important thing is she needs to be proactive and put herself out there. It helps to know which direction this is first though as directing her efforts to a particular industry or job role will yield better results. She may also want to register with as many agencies as  she can, a list of which can be found at http://www.thaiwebsites.com/recruitment.asp? You may also want to have a read of the Ex-Pat Guide to working in Thailand https://www.thailandstarterkit.com/work/work-in-thailand which offers some good, general advice.  

Good luck.

[Srinakarin]

Blackcab,

 

Thank you for detailing your experience.  It's good to know that there is some hope that some executive level  expats out there value Thais that get our way of thinking.  The trouble I have is that my network of connections in Bangkok is very limited and that's something I need to work on, although our personal circumstances make that very difficult.  Your comments give me some hope, where before there was very little.  I appreciate that.

 

JohnnyBangkok,

 

I have replied to you directly, and I thank you again for offering me a nudge in the right direction.  

 

The agencies you list may be useful and I will  take a look at them.  Certainly it seems that although there are problems associated with lack of recent experience and degree, the bigger problem seems to be lack of a network, and lack of clarity over what she can / wants to do.  Putting herself out there is key, I agree.  Trouble is, reading JobsDb can snuff out any hope she has.  So many jobs list degree and under 35 that it's only natural that she's disheartened.  

 

Your comments like Blackcabs give us some hope.  It's a case of looking in the right places and having more focus.

 

Cheers

[blackcab]

@Srinakarin She has to identify the area, if any, that she prefers. Try and do a bit of research about foreign run companies, then just walk in. She needs confidence, because if she gets hired she could well be giving the people around her work instructions or training.

 

Getting to talk to the expat manager is key, because they will be the only person with the authority or inclination to hire her. She needs a stack of nicely written CVs (in English), with a photo printed on the front page in colour and a copy of her ID card. Surprisingly quite a few CVs end up on the correct desks, and an experienced manager can spot a promising candidate in about 10 seconds. Try putting a eye-catching post it note on the front of the CV saying, "Please refer me to your colleagues". It's little touches like that which expat managers do not see very often, but they count for a lot.

 

It might take 100 walk ins, it might take 500 - but I guarantee you someone out there will hire her for reasonable or good money. It's a common lament among expat managers that they cannot find good quality staff (good quality meaning has English skills and can make competent decisions - somebody who actually gets it's not the 5 baht or whatever, it's the principle).

 

When she's interviewed by the manager, tell them how many different companies she has walked into. They will value her persistence, and her commitment to achieving her goals. I guarantee they will employ someone like that as opposed to someone younger who has a degree in something or other that is probably not even slightly relevant to the position that is on offer.

[Srinakarin]

Blackcab, 

 

Those points are all spot on.  

Confidence is essential, but it naturally drops the longer you are out of work.  Add to that the unrealistic recruitment criteria listed for the majority of jobs these days, and it's hard to fake it.  I keep telling her that she needs to recognise her strengths and not be dragged down by the daunting job requirements that are  listed.  The fact that you've emphasised its importance, might make her take note more so I'll forward her your perspective.   You are a far more credible source of advice than me for sure on this.

 

The advice about getting to see an expat manager makes total sense.  I just need to find ways to find companies that can point me in the right direction in terms of finding where those expat managers are.  I'll see what google can come up with.  

 

I can see there is a lot of legwork involved now, and you are right again that mentioning the lengths she's gone to just to get an interview show a determination that is in short supply.    Many of the educated Thais I work with comment on the lack of determination in  younger employees generally.  For once, it might be an asset that she's the wrong side of 30 (from a Western perspective at least).

 

Finally, for what it's worth, Dragon's Den and The apprentice in the UK have given her a more Western understanding about good business decisions (at least in theory!) .  That may be wasted on Thai recruiters, but expat managers may at least see that she understands the point you are making about 

"somebody who actually gets it's not the 5 baht or whatever, it's the principle".  She may not have got there from her own experience, but at least she has seen the characteristics needed to build the right mindset.

 

I thank you again for your very valuable comments, blackcab. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

Another option other than just a walk in would be to get her to sign up for LinkedIn (and also post her CV on to the jobsDB database). On LinkedIn she can create her own profile but more importantly, it gives her the chance to track down those expat managers Blackcab is referring to. Avoid HR. They only react to existing jobs and won't be entrepreneurial like hiring managers will. For a small fee, she can get an option that allows her to 'inmail' other people on the site and then she just needs an eye catching message that doesn't labour what she doesn't have but rather focuses on what she does have. As I mentioned earlier though, it helps to be focused so she really needs to start working out what kind of industry/job she is looking for and concentrate on that initially.

Good luck!   

[Srinakarin]

Yes Jonnybangkok, thanks for reminding me of that.  I had tried that a few years ago (tracking down managers) in an effort to find an escape route into something more challenging and with more opportunities for advancement and responsibility.

 

Contacting people out of the blue to inquire about  openings seemed too much like cold calling and I felt uncomfortable with it.    I'm now coming to the conclusion that you don't get anywhere in life without asking,  so I think it's about time I had another crack at that myself and my missus can do the same. 

 

Without much or any experience relevant to  offer a company, it feels inappropriate to even inquire.  However I guess that having the desire, wisdom, understanding of local culture and communication skills may just be enough to secure an entry level position in some cases.  From a western perspective at least, it's not all about academic qualifications and youth.

 

 

 

 

[blackcab]

On 3/28/2018 at 12:55 PM, Srinakarin said:

...the unrealistic recruitment criteria listed for the majority of jobs these days...

 

Which is why you don't go through the HR department. Get hold of the expat manager, be straight and tell them that HR is looking for unicorns, when they would be much better off hiring a horse.

 

On 3/29/2018 at 2:52 PM, Srinakarin said:

...I'm now coming to the conclusion that you don't get anywhere in life without asking...

 

Hiring managers are not mind readers or clairvoyants. They can't find people they don't know about. No manager I know minds being asked about employment opportunities. We get it all the time; it's part of the job. We probably only take 1 out of 100 cold calls further, but as I said, if the right person walks through the door at the right time then the hiring manager will pay attention.