2 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

Get ready for WWIII, glad it's far from my bed where it gonna be radio active

No, WWIII was the Cold War WWIV has already started, it is the Dirty War, cyber attacks, and hacking of government servers, the NHS, banks and financial institutions. 

At the same time the world is punishing Russia for a man, how about the thousands killed by Russian airstrikes in Syria!!!???

I feel the next next action will be to put something into the spokes of the world cup...
 
Remember Russia bribed FIFA and there may be justice at last, I just can not see English fans surviving in Russia, fans of other nationalities maybe at risk too, and to compound things many countries probably will not have a functioning consular service in Russia to assist fans attending the world cup.

Yes the safety of fans from any of the countries which have expelled Russian's may well be the focus now.

Unfortunately, if it all goes wrong then the Russian world cup may end up being a blood bath, as the Ultra's will have an axe to grind.

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Yes the safety of fans from any of the countries which have expelled Russian's may well be the focus now.

Unfortunately, if it all goes wrong then the Russian world cup may end up being a blood bath, as the Ultra's will have an axe to grind.

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I thought it was going to be bad before
I am really concern about any English fans who are going now.Unless it was those fools in Ansterdam the other day.

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10 hours ago, sanemax said:

Dont you think that its a real issue, a real problem ?

Russia killing people in other Countries , and this isnt the first time either .

Dont you think that other Countries are concerned that Russia may also assassinate people in their Countries ?

   Russia needs to be made aware that assassinations are unacceptable .

Its definitely not a "manufactured storm in a tea cup" , its a reaction to state assassination

Dont you think that reasonable people would like to see some conclusive proof/evidence before statements like yours are made.

 

We have been down this road before when the public were lied to and and false evidence was manufactured (Iraq)  That is a good reason to demand evidence don't you think?

On 26/03/2018 at 2:55 PM, juice777 said:

Well done US and Europe he has to know that he cant pull stuff like this without serious consequences.

I still say the UK should pull out if the world cup as well.If only for nothing more then our fans safety.

Arsenal are playing CSKA in Moscow soon let's hope there is no trouble and if there is we should pull out of the world cup.The Russians seem to nationalistic at the moment and I worry about English fans who are planing to go.It was bad enough before let alone now.

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England fans the original hooligans are now a laughing stock and are too scared to go to tournamemts, lol 

3 minutes ago, Davmaac said:

Dont you think that reasonable people would like to see some conclusive proof/evidence before statements like yours are made.

 

We have been down this road before when the public were lied to and and false evidence was manufactured (Iraq)  That is a good reason to demand evidence don't you think?

Sometimes evidence is extremely hard to come by - especially when ultra professional agencies are involved.

IMHO, after a while it becomes reasonable to draw conclusions from a series of similar incidents, especially in the absence of any explanation from the "suspect".

 

Russian linked deaths/attempted murders in the UK since 2006:

2006 - Igor Ponomarev and Alexander Litvinenko  

2007 - Yuri Golubev 

2008 - Badri Patarkatsishvili 

2010 - Gareth Williams, the former GCHQ codebreaker was found dead locked inside a sports bag in his flat. Before his death it was reported that focused on Russia and money-laundering.  

2012 - Alexander Perepilichnyy  

2013 - Boris Berezovsky  

2014 - Scot Young was a friend of Berezovsky, who represented the oligarch in business trips to Russia. 

2016 - Dr Matthew Puncher, the British scientist who discovered that Litvinenko had been poisoned, died five months after visiting Russia.  

2018 - Sergei Skripa, Yulia (his daughter), Nikolai Glushkov, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey 

 

Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nikolai-glushkov-russia-linked-deaths-britain-sergei-skripal-yulia-a8260271.html 

I posted this link in another topic a while ago - apologies to those who have already seen it.

For those who need a break from the serious side of this topic - an irreverent view of this whole debacle from Private Eye ...

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/st-theresa

20 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

There have been many assassination attempts on foreign leaders - let alone spies/double agents!

 

Why is there mass hysteria over this effort?

 

And in your experience, are such high profile assassination attempts often simply shrugged off?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but seems like most of the "hysteria", going on about WWIII, black ops and whatnot comes more from other parts.

12 hours ago, CharlesSwann said:

Those two Russkies didn't even die and now people are talking about nuclear war and the end of humankind. That's the kind of hysteria our politicians have whipped up with their ridiculous escalation of this trivial issue.

 

Tension breeds tension. Especially when other countries wade in, the situation becomes incendiary and unpredictable. Absolute insanity. I'm furious at the west's response to this. Lemmings marching towards the cliff. Madness. Madness.

 

The ones who are going on about nuclear war are also, for the most part, those trying to pretend Russia had nothing to do with it (or when that fails, play down the whole thing). The manufactured key word from Russia Central seems to be "hysteria", and IMO it rather reflects attitudes within Putin's regime.

 

I'd wager this was a botched up affair. Meant to be an exotic revenge execution, with an acceptable measure of diplomatic complications. Operation got messy, and accordingly the response went beyond expectations. Someone at the FSB probably lost his pension (if he's lucky). 

 

Not that what you're supposedly "furious" about matters much, but interesting to see that it is the West's response that draws your sentiment, rather than a blatant extra-judicial execution of a British citizen, on British soil.

Troll post reported and removed.

 

With NATO becoming the latest to expel Russian bods its becoming increasing apparent that this blatant 'poisoning attack' has backfired on those who sanctioned and approved it.

I still support the 'provide evidence' argument whist the investigation continues, however Russia continue to plead deniability complete with accusing others of being obnoxious.

Rather than be feared and respected, Putin is clearly showing his arrogance card and ignorance of international law.


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With NATO becoming the latest to expel Russian bods its becoming increasing apparent that this blatant 'poisoning attack' has backfired on those who sanctioned and approved it. 

I still support the 'provide evidence' argument whist the investigation continues, however Russia continue to plead deniability complete with accusing others of being obnoxious.

 

Rather than be feared and respected, Putin is clearly showing his arrogance card and ignorance of international law.

 

 

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Yep are all the people claiming conspiracy are they saying that all the other countries are in on it? including the ones we are in the process of burning Bridges with, or we are clever enough and arrogant enough to trick them all. 

There is no way they would back us if they thought it was BS and let's face it they were probably reluctant to do it.Look how long it took The us to get involved And trump is still being quiet about it compared to some other issues in the world which he can't keep his fat mouth shut about.

 

It all adds up to they reluctantly had no choice to back us.I imagine that we presented them with the evidence and it was overwhelming.How much oil Dose Russia Supply some of these countries are they really going to risk that for us after Brexit unless they had no choice because Russia is guilty as hell.

 

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5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

And in your experience, are such high profile assassination attempts often simply shrugged off?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but seems like most of the "hysteria", going on about WWIII, black ops and whatnot comes more from other parts.

This has been turned into a 'high profile assassination attempt'....

 

I think I was the first to mention hysteria (?), so you suspect me of being a russian agent ?!

I'm just pointing out the bs/hypocrisy and hysteria over the attempted assassination of a spy/double agent!

On 3/26/2018 at 8:34 PM, snoop1130 said:

Trump expels 60 Russians

 

Normally, for Trump to expel that many people, they need to be in his Cabinet.

~ Colbert

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The ones who are going on about nuclear war are also, for the most part, those trying to pretend Russia had nothing to do with it (or when that fails, play down the whole thing). The manufactured key word from Russia Central seems to be "hysteria", and IMO it rather reflects attitudes within Putin's regime.

 

I'd wager this was a botched up affair. Meant to be an exotic revenge execution, with an acceptable measure of diplomatic complications. Operation got messy, and accordingly the response went beyond expectations. Someone at the FSB probably lost his pension (if he's lucky). 

 

Not that what you're supposedly "furious" about matters much, but interesting to see that it is the West's response that draws your sentiment, rather than a blatant extra-judicial execution of a British citizen, on British soil.

If my first girlfriend annoyed me in some minor way, I would remonstrate a bit and let it go.

If I annoyed her in some minor way, she would respond with catastrophic retribution that had far-reaching psychological effects for us both. She was insecure, which is to say mildly mentally unstable, and potentially dangerous.

 

On an international level, you really need to avoid this sort of inflammatory response.  A bit of remonstration was appropriate, not an escalating international crisis. The Russians are a bit mad - there's no remedy for that - but mainly they wanted to send a message to treasonous Russian agents and their hosts - somewhat reasonably actually. Britain is just at fault with its ridiculous spy games... double agents, <deleted>... it might teach them not to meddle with the Russians.

 

Yes, a shrug would have been the bigger, cleverer response from Britain.

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

This has been turned into a 'high profile assassination attempt'....

 

I think I was the first to mention hysteria (?), so you suspect me of being a russian agent ?!

I'm just pointing out the bs/hypocrisy and hysteria over the attempted assassination of a spy/double agent!

 

Right, because making such attempts on former spies, in a foreign country, and in such a manner is absolutely your everyday sort of assassination attempt. To repeat the question, in your experience do such assassination attempts usually get the "oh well" treatment?

 

You were not the first to mention "hysteria", not on this forum and this topics. Certainly not similar discussions and comments elsewhere. I am not suspecting you of being a Russia agent, I'm pointing out that certain talking points and phrases are being repeated. There was some discussion (and resources linked) on this phenomenon in previous and similar context. Mapping how these flow through media outlets and social media platforms is not witchcraft these days.

 

There is no "hysteria". If throwing diplomats (or spies) out of countries counts as "hysteria", may I suggest that your threshold is rather low. Somehow trying to kill a citizen doesn't bring up the same reaction out of some posters. But do go on about "hypocrisy". The "hysteria" would be from those getting their knickers in a twist over what is essentially a diplomatic response, and probably a pointless one, at that - and opining it may lead to war etc. The "hypocrisy" would be the vocal objections to a diplomatic response, while making light of an assassination attempt. 

 

@CharlesSwann

 

I doubt that simplistic analogies about imaginary girlfriends and claimed personal conduct contribute a whole lot to the discussion.

 

On the international level, you really need to avoid carrying out assassination attempts which may lead to inflammatory responses. For some posters, it would seem that Russia is to be given a certain leeway, answer to lower expectations when it comes to international relations and conduct. Somehow, it is quite alright for Russia to spy on other countries, but Britain is "at fault" for doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except Russia did not do it .The West in general is desperate to start WW3 with Russia .

Just now, anto said:

Except Russia did not do it .The West in general is desperate to start WW3 with Russia .

 

It is very likely that Russia did do it. And the West is not looking for WW3.

Sorry I totally missread your post and my response made no sense what so ever so I have deleted it .

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, CharlesSwann said:

If my first girlfriend annoyed me in some minor way, I would remonstrate a bit and let it go.

If I annoyed her in some minor way, she would respond with catastrophic retribution that had far-reaching psychological effects for us both. She was insecure, which is to say mildly mentally unstable, and potentially dangerous.

Are you still with her ?

Did you pacifistic approach work and you both lived together happily ever after ?

Close the seattle consulate???

Wow the kremlin will be gutted.

Noticeable that dt hadnt yet made an utterances via his twitter condemning russia showing he is completely dominated by putin.

The man lacks a spine. 

 

3 minutes ago, Expatthailover said:

Close the seattle consulate???

Wow the kremlin will be gutted.

Noticeable that dt hadnt yet made an utterances via his twitter condemning russia showing he is completely dominated by putin.

The man lacks a spine. 

Donald the business man can probably see an opportunity here , hes probably PM'ed Putin and asked him to take Hilary out next

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

@CharlesSwann

 

I doubt that simplistic analogies about imaginary girlfriends and claimed personal conduct contribute a whole lot to the discussion.

 

On the international level, you really need to avoid carrying out assassination attempts which may lead to inflammatory responses.

For some posters, it would seem that Russia is to be given a certain leeway, answer to lower expectations when it comes to international relations and conduct. Somehow, it is quite alright for Russia to spy on other countries, but Britain is "at fault" for doing so.

 

 

Britain is equally at fault for its spy games. Just to elucidate that point for you.

 

The allegory was a real-world example of how an immoderate response can result in conflict. If anything, it will only provoke the Russians into showing that they can do it again. They're temperamental. 'Punishment' won't work - it will only make them more determined. How is it I'm the only one who understands this?

 

In any case, there's no moral high ground here. The whole spy industry merits ridicule. Distrust breeds distrust. If you've ever tried reading your partner's secret diary (to extend the metaphor) you'll probably wish you hadn't. The simple fact is that Russia is not about to attack the west, and the west's response is to usher in a new cold war on account of a piece of theatre, or rather, on account of pride and insecurity.

 

Pride and Insecurity are the biggest dangers. My government - and you - are vulnerable to both, it seems.

 

Edited March 28, 20188 yr by CharlesSwann

On 3/26/2018 at 10:18 PM, chickenslegs said:

Nobody has claimed that they have 100% proof of Russia's involvement.

The issue is that the nerve agent used in the attack was produced in Russia, but the Russians are refusing to cooperate with the investigation.

no.  this is just getting silly.

 

every single statement from uk, nato, europals uses the very very special

wording "of a type" designed or manufactured in russia.  we hear it was

quite a heated exchange when the folks at porton down refused to say

it was russian origin.....just the weasel worded "of a type."  only thing

missing is colen powell and his wee tiny bottle of antraxx.

 

well, i'm typing on a keyboard "of a type" orginated by californians, but

now designed by koreans and slapped together by the chinese.

 

novichok formula has been released, many countries are able to replicate.

some are known to have done some experiments.  of course russian

program was shut down, with the us department of defense leading the

decommission of the production site in uzbekistan.

 

russians have been demanding samples, and for cooperation in the

investigation as per OPCW treaty...but britian refuses, as that would

interfere with the fantasy.

 

interestingly, novichok is claimed to be 5-8x more lethal than vx, yet

no one has died.  the policeman has recovered, any others sent to

hospital for treatment were all released.  only the two russians are

missing.

 

no explanation as to why the russians would do this, attempt to kill

a former spy.  not a threat, and no conceivable gain to be made,

especially not in the run-up to election and world cup.

 

 

6 minutes ago, CharlesSwann said:

Britain is equally at fault for its spy games. Just to elucidate that point for you.

 

The allegory was a real-world example of how an immoderate response can result in conflict. If anything, it will only provoke the Russians into showing that they can do it again. They're temperamental. 'Punishment' won't work - it will only make them more determined. How is it I'm the only one who understands this?

 

In any case, there's no moral high ground here. The whole spy industry merits ridicule. Distrust breeds distrust. If you've ever tried reading your partner's secret diary (to extend the metaphor) you'll probably wish you hadn't. The simple fact is that Russia is not about to attack the west, and the west's response is to usher in a new cold war on account of a piece of theatre, or rather, on account of pride and insecurity.

 

Pride and Insecurity are the biggest dangers. My government - and you - are vulnerable to both, it seems.

 

 

You don't seem all that critical of Russia, unless pressed, and even then.... Spying is something many countries engage in. Killing and trying to kill former agents, not so much. Especially not in the manner which was used in this case. Just to elucidate the point for you.

 

The analogy offered was a simplistic effort to misrepresent reality, and nothing more. Noteworthy that the focus of your posts is on the response, rather than on the action that triggered it. Somehow, that doesn't come into it much. So by all means, waffle on about provocations, immoderate responses, and make whatever inane personal comments you like - still doesn't change the fact that you're applying a double standard ,without much by way of a coherent reasoning.

 

And no, that you choose to describe Russian character s as this or that, is an opinion - not fact. And nothing which  your posted so far indicates that your judgement on this is carries particular merit.

 

As for "pride and insecurity" - I'm not the one getting worked up over a diplomatic response (sending those Russians home), or scaremongering that it will provoke the Russians to do it again. That would be you. "Pride", sure - "How is it I'm the only one who understands this?" - your words. One of them instances when a comment can be both funny and lame at the same time, well done.

 

I will say this, you trolled better on your former handle/account.

3 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

no.  this is just getting silly.

 

every single statement from uk, nato, europals uses the very very special wording "of a type" designed or manufactured in russia.  we hear it was quite a heated exchange when the folks at porton down refused to say

it was russian origin.....just the weasel worded "of a type."  only thing missing is colen powell and his wee tiny bottle of antraxx.

 

well, i'm typing on a keyboard "of a type" orginated by californians, but now designed by koreans and slapped together by the chinese.

 

novichok formula has been released, many countries are able to replicate.  some are known to have done some experiments.  of course russian program was shut down, with the us department of defense leading the decommission of the production site in uzbekistan.

 

russians have been demanding samples, and for cooperation in the investigation as per OPCW treaty...but britian refuses, as that would interfere with the fantasy.

 

interestingly, novichok is claimed to be 5-8x more lethal than vx, yet no one has died.  the policeman has recovered, any others sent to hospital for treatment were all released.  only the two russians are missing.

 

no explanation as to why the russians would do this, attempt to kill a former spy.  not a threat, and no conceivable gain to be made, especially not in the run-up to election and world cup.

 

 

 

 

Quote

no explanation as to why the russians would do this, attempt to kill a former spy.  not a threat, and no conceivable gain to be made, especially not in the run-up to election and world cup.

 

For someone apparently following this closely, some nice blind spots there. Apparently Putin & Co. didn't get your memo:

 

'Traitors will kick the bucket' — watch Vladimir Putin's chilling warning to spies who betray Russia

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-threatened-russian-traitors-the-year-sergei-skripal-went-to-uk-2018-3

 

Voter turnout key for Kremlin as Russia heads to polls to hand Putin 4th presidential term

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/voter-turnout-key-kremlin-russia-heads-polls-hand-putin-4th-n857606

 

Putin cruises to victory in Russia, tells supporters: ‘Success awaits us!’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-scrambles-to-get-voters-to-polls-to-legitimize-election-ahead-of-expected-putin-landslide/2018/03/18/f8d31426-2963-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html?utm_term=.a417afa4e7fd

 

Russia Credits the West for Putin’s Big Victory

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/world/europe/russia-putin-vote-president.html

 

And, of course, other than conspiracy theory nonsense, not much by way of a plausible alternative culprit.

3 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

no.  this is just getting silly.

 

every single statement from uk, nato, europals uses the very very special wording "of a type" designed or manufactured in russia.  we hear it was quite a heated exchange when the folks at porton down refused to say

it was russian origin.....just the weasel worded "of a type."  only thing missing is colen powell and his wee tiny bottle of antraxx.

 

well, i'm typing on a keyboard "of a type" orginated by californians, but now designed by koreans and slapped together by the chinese.

 

novichok formula has been released, many countries are able to replicate.  some are known to have done some experiments.  of course russian program was shut down, with the us department of defense leading the decommission of the production site in uzbekistan.

 

russians have been demanding samples, and for cooperation in the investigation as per OPCW treaty...but britian refuses, as that would interfere with the fantasy.

 

interestingly, novichok is claimed to be 5-8x more lethal than vx, yet no one has died.  the policeman has recovered, any others sent to hospital for treatment were all released.  only the two russians are missing.

 

no explanation as to why the russians would do this, attempt to kill a former spy.  not a threat, and no conceivable gain to be made, especially not in the run-up to election and world cup.

 

 

 

Next time you copy and paste something from the web be so fair to give credit to the author of the piece.

 

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

And, of course, other than conspiracy theory nonsense, not much by way of a plausible alternative culprit.

not my job to provide alternate theories.  would just get my post deleted

as spreading conspiracy theories.

 

it's up to the brits to prove it, if they can.  obviously they cannot.

if there were evidence, we'd have seen something by now....