90-day Reporting While Visa 'under Consideration'

[madcatlady]

I entered Thailand on a 3-month non-imm "O" visa in June of last year (based on marriage to a Thai) and applied for an extension to a one-year visa at Chiang Mai Immigration a few days before it was due to expire. I filled out forms, presented documents, attended the interview and had my passport stamped with 'under consideration', and told to present myself back at the Immigration Office a month later.

A month later I went back and was stamped 'under consideration' and told to return again in one month's time. I duly returned to the office a month later and became the proud owner of an extension stamp allowing me to stay in LOS until June of this year.

I was vaguely aware of a responsibility to report to the office next door every 90 days and assumed that this would be from the date that I received my extension. No-one at the Immigration Office had mentioned anything in particular about reporting so I was blissfully ignorant of the facts. As far as I was concerned I'd just received a new visa so wouldn't need to report until February.

A while later I bought a motorbike and through the process of registering the bike had to go to Immigration to get a Residency Certificate. I filled out a form, presented documents and photos and left to go get a bowl of noodles while they processed the documents.

I returned some time later to be told that I had breached the 90-day reporting rule and would be fined 2000 baht. I immediately protested my innocence and tried to explain that I'd never been informed of this, despite visiting the Immigration Office opposite three times in two months. The officer was unmoved and refused to listen to my reasons. I begged, pleaded, and even cried but all to no avail. The officer asked for my husband's telephone number and called him to ask him to explain to me that I would just have to pay up and leave. After speaking to my husband I decided to go outside to get some air and calm down. I returned a few minutes later and was told that I'd have to wait another hour to pay the fine as they had just broken up for lunch. Frankly, I couldn't bear the stress any longer so I promised to return the following day.

The next day I met with an officer who was even harder-faced than her colleague from the previous day. I was a lot calmer this time and quietly explained that I felt that the fine was unfair under the circumstances and I wanted to speak to the inspector. The officer stated that I would have to pay, as my husband had agreed to it over the phone the day before! I pointed out that my husband was not the boss of me and it was my decision. Finally, she scribbled out a note and sent me over to seek an officer from the extension office. I located a sympathetic officer who listened to my explanation. He then consulted with a colleague who issued a notice to the effect that I wouldn't have to report back until February (as per my original assumption.) Feeling triumphant, I presented myself and my precious little notice to the hard-faced woman in the other office.

hel_l hath no fury and all that! She gathered up her colleagues and stamped into her office, where she proceeded to loudly ridicule me for crying the previous day and complain about the innefficiency of the other office. She wasn't aware that I understand Thai so felt no need to lower her voice or close her office door. The officer refused to accept the notice and removed it from my passport, telling me that her opposing number should never have issued it to me. I again requested an interview with the inspector and was asked to wait. Half an hour later I was informed that I'd have to come back after the weekend as he was currently attending a meeting in Bangkok!

Monday and Tuesday came and went without resolution.

Finally, this morning I was granted an audience with the inspector, attended by the relevant officers from each department. He listened to the whole story and gave me an opportunity to put my side of the case to him. I explained that I had now been made fully aware of my responsibilities and if I'd known the situation in the first place would have gladly walked across the car park to the other office to make a report. He gently chastised the officer who had forgotten to attach the notice in the first place.

The outcome - no 2,000 baht fine and I get to come back and report in February after all.

What a result! I know that I'm lucky and I realise that it's the law. But it was an honest mistake and I'm glad that the inspector looked kindly on me today. I'm also glad that I had the courage and tenacity to fight back, as most people that I've spoken to said that they would have just paid up and left.

So be warned! You still have to report every 90 days even if your visa application/extension is 'under consideration'.

MCL

[sriracha john]

Thank you for writing the nice "report." Glad things turned out well for you.

If it's not too intrusive... might I inquire as to what you said to your husband in regards to his agreeing with the officer that you would pay the fine?

[lopburi3]

The official web site for Immigration has the below statement:

The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days.

[madcatlady]

Thank you for writing the nice "report." Glad things turned out well for you.

If it's not too intrusive... might I inquire as to what you said to your husband in regards to his agreeing with the officer that you would pay the fine?

It's not intrusive at all. I didn't say that much to him as I was too upset. My husband agreed with the officer as he's just a 'good village boy' that was brought up to never question authority. He just wanted me to pay up and leave as he hated the thought that I was upset and possibly causing a scene!

MCL

[sriracha john]

Thank you for your response.

Hopefully it will help him to see things in a new perspective.

[madcatlady]

The official web site for Immigration has the below statement:

The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days.

Ah, now I understand! So I should have reported 90 days after I had applied for the extension of stay. Got you.

Thanks for the info.

MCL

[PeaceBlondie]

What works for me, now that I've been in Thailand for years, is to count the visa-extension thingy totally separate from the 90 day-address thingy. Every time I enter the Kingdom by land, sea, air or tunnel, I tell them where I live, on the arrival card. Within 90 days of that date, I go to CMai Immigration (left side, inside the building) and give them my address again. Regardless of my visa dates. And if I leave the Kingdom for any reason, the 90 days starts counting again after I return by submarine or hovercraft, because I tell them where I live on the arrival card. I keep two separate calendar dates for the two thingies.

Good grief, when women or 289-pound men cried at my desk, I just got tougher. Congratulations for beating the system.

[madcatlady]

Thank you for your response.

Hopefully it will help him to see things in a new perspective.

It certainly did! He's now proud of his 'tough' wife who took on Immigration and won!!!

But I doubt that it will change the way that he views authority. The whole respect for authority (government officials, police, teachers, doctors etc.) is so ingrained in the majority of Thai people that it's a bit difficult for us Westerners to understand. We're so used to questioning everything. But it's a small downside to life in LOS.

MCL

[PeaceBlondie]

madcatlady, your anecdote of raising hel_l and then crying, and appealing to the inspector, worked for you, with a lot of trouble on your part. It reminds me of the workmate in an NGO, nice guy and pretty tough, who got run through the ringer by a really nasty Inmigracion lady in Mexico. She literally reduced the guy to tears. We went back and gave them flowers. They melted like butter in sunlight. I ran into her again a year later (without bringing flowers) and she made me lose face in front of a whole lot of illegal Central Americans. I stood there and took it, because my fate was in her hands. Finally she relented and filled the forms out for me.

In my first year as a tax auditor, we audited the tax returns of many long-haul truck drivers - a very tough bunch of macho guys. I had a 330 pound trucker come in (that's 150 kg) who started the interview with, "You can call me 'Tiny.'" Within 20 minutes he was crying like a baby. I remember another quote by him, about not having meal receipts to claim meal expenses: "Candy vending machines don't give receipts."

I understand what you say about Thai partners who respect authorities too much. My Thai boyfriend hates it if I even I joke with the doctor. But I don't argue with gov't officials. Again, congrats on getting your overstay fine forgiven. They weren't that nice with me, in Chiang Mai immigration, when I walked straight in from the hospital. I had to pay the overstay fine, crippled and all. Them's the rules.

[bdenner]

The official web site for Immigration has the below statement:

The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days.

That answers a question I was about to put. I have just received the receipt for my latest, mailed, 90 day report and they have dated my next report at the visa extn. renewal date in early April. It appears I don’t have to hand them a 90 day report along with my extn. application documentation. Thanks

[lopburi3]

The official web site for Immigration has the below statement:

The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days.

That answers a question I was about to put. I have just received the receipt for my latest, mailed, 90 day report and they have dated my next report at the visa extn. renewal date in early April. It appears I don’t have to hand them a 90 day report along with my extn. application documentation. Thanks

You will need to fill out a form TM.47 and submit but they have made the date the same so that you can do both in one trip. It is only the first application for extension that counts as a report - after that only TM.47 (90 day report) and TM.6 (arrival card) count.

[madcatlady]

The official web site for Immigration has the below statement:

The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days.

That answers a question I was about to put. I have just received the receipt for my latest, mailed, 90 day report and they have dated my next report at the visa extn. renewal date in early April. It appears I don't have to hand them a 90 day report along with my extn. application documentation. Thanks

You will need to fill out a form TM.47 and submit but they have made the date the same so that you can do both in one trip. It is only the first application for extension that counts as a report - after that only TM.47 (90 day report) and TM.6 (arrival card) count.

Great, well that's clear as mud then!!! LOS - you gotta love it!!!

MCL

[ProThaiExpat]

I don't know if it is of any help, but if you think of Immigration in Chiang Mai as a visa and extention section on the right as you go in and the Administrative division on the left as you go in, they are both different departments and perhaps the new computer system is not set up so what you do in one will be notice to the other.

Anyway, 90 day reporting has nothing to do with your visa activity. Residence statements likewise are administrave section work.

Only an entry stamp or document triggers a 90 day cycle, extentions of that do not. Anything you might do in the visa section regarding your stay in Thailand does not affect your starting cycle date for the 90 day notice, only leaving and then your entry document/stamp will start a new cycle.

While you may feel your efforts at getting a waiver of your fine as a "victory" of some sort, "ignorance of the law" is not an excuse in any legal system in the world. Imagine what police stations and courts would be like if your "approach" to obtaining justice based on your ignorance of the regulations was allowed.

The victory belongs to the Officer in Charge of the Admin Divisions for making (a problem) "you" go away. Another big "black mark" against foreigners in Thailand and their perceived entitlement for special treatment when they don't comply with regulations.

[madcatlady]

I don't know if it is of any help, but if you think of Immigration in Chiang Mai as a visa and extention section on the right as you go in and the Administrative division on the left as you go in, they are both different departments and perhaps the new computer system is not set up so what you do in one will be notice to the other.

Anyway, 90 day reporting has nothing to do with your visa activity. Residence statements likewise are administrave section work.

Only an entry stamp or document triggers a 90 day cycle, extentions of that do not. Anything you might do in the visa section regarding your stay in Thailand does not affect your starting cycle date for the 90 day notice, only leaving and then your entry document/stamp will start a new cycle.

While you may feel your efforts at getting a waiver of your fine as a "victory" of some sort, "ignorance of the law" is not an excuse in any legal system in the world. Imagine what police stations and courts would be like if your "approach" to obtaining justice based on your ignorance of the regulations was allowed.

The victory belongs to the Officer in Charge of the Admin Divisions for making (a problem) "you" go away. Another big "black mark" against foreigners in Thailand and their perceived entitlement for special treatment when they don't comply with regulations.

Thanks for your explanation - it helps to clear up any misconceptions that I or others may have about this mystifying process!

But what's with all of the "words" in quotation marks???

And am I naive in thinking that the Thai visa forum was set up to help members rather than judge them?

I did think that I achieved a victory of sorts but that was because I made a genuine mistake in the first place. I agree that ignorance of the law is no defence but if you don't know the questions to ask, how can you get the right answers? I have spoken to many friends here who have told me that they were given an official notice in their passports about reporting at the other office when they first applied for an extension. This was not done in my case and the officer admitted her mistake. The Officer in Charge waived my fine for this reason, not only because I kicked up a fuss. I didn't expect special treatment (as you put it) but a fair hearing. Surely, everyone's entitled to that? I think that considering this a black mark against foreigners is something of an over-dramatisation. But that's just my humble opinion.

MCL

[ProThaiExpat]

OPs last post cleared up one misconception I had from her previous posts and that was it was a "mistake" on immigrations part to not put a reminder notice in her passport as to her 90 day reporting due date. If in fact immigraton acknowledged their failure to do so as a "mistake" may be subject to interpretation.

As I have reported in another thread, I found such a notice stuck in my passport for the first time on the picture page, placed their in Janurary. Had I not been just leafing through my passport, I wouldn't have spotted it. This practice is of recent origin and part of the improved service from immigration, not present a couple of years ago. In the past, return dates have been stamped on the 90 day reporting receipt stapled into your passport. When I go in the next time, it may be that they continue to stamp the 90 notice receipt with your return date and the separate notice of return date is only used on first extentions.

While this courtesy notice is now widely applied by immigration is would seem, I doubt it has reached the level of "policy", deviation from which would be considered deriliction of duty or a "mistake".

My post contained an error, corrected by lopburi3, and that is your first application for extention, in addition to your arrival date, starts a new 90 day cycle.