UK state pension going same way as Australian ?

[Fish Head Soup]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Corbyn, Abbott and last but not least McDonnell...........what could possibly go wrong. 

Everything unfortunately. But that's where it's heading.

[mommysboy]

Getting all political!

 

It's just absurd to think that paid up subscribers would be denied their dues.  There would be uproar. 

 

The Australian pension does look a bugger's muddle because it is both residency based and means tested.  Even then, it seems to me expats will likely just need to return to their homeland for a short spell, and possibly forego the means tested element if they declare themselves living outside Australia thereafter.

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

I do think some thanks is due to OP: it does show what the powers that be are thinking about.  I can well imagine pensioners being hit left right and centre, but only the well heeled ones.  It was them that wanted Brexit after all, and I guess it is they who are going to pay for it!

[dotpoom]

In Ireland one must " reside" there to receive a state pension. If this is a "wellfare payment"...as in,  not having made enough contributions during one's lifetime to qualify for a private pension....is that not reasonable that you live in the country if one wants assistance with the living expences of thar same country?

[superal]

11 hours ago, soalbundy said:

The queen will pay for it. Sell a trident missile. Scrap the wedding cake. Sell the third baby. cut the quango's, who cares. 

and why not ? " charity begins at home " as the saying goes but it should not be a charity as it must be a right if one has made full contributions . The mechanics of the UK pension scheme are for me not clear to understand and are unfair to those who have paid in full . Not bragging but some of my weekly contributions exceeded that of a normal mans take home wages and I am sure there are many other readers in a similar position . Yet I receive only a little more than the basic 35 year qualifying mark .

    I know that the government was challenged as to why it withheld annual increases to expats outside of reciprocal countries and the government won .  How can that be ?   and who or what body decided the outcome of the challenge ?

To me it feels unlawful and there are enough involved pensioners to effect a further inquiry .  Justice would see the decision overturned and the denied annual increases calculated and repaid . 

Has anyone studied the reasoning behind the decision ? I for one would appreciate any info 

Sorry for a slight deviation from the main topic .   

[tigermoth]

On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 9:54 PM, HauptmannUK said:

This thread is about pensions, not politics. However expat pensioners are in the main are not 'poor' by most folk's definition.  And I don't wear Brogues - mostly Ecco or Rieker casuals....

 

I would not support the move to reduce/restrict pensions for expats but I think it will come. Its being successfully applied by other countries with similar pension systems to the UK (Aus, NZ?).  And the savings to the government would substantial.  Moreover it could even be a vote winner since most UK voters seem to display negativity toward expats.  There is certainly support for the current strategy of charging expats for NHS care (150% of the cost I believe).

Aussie expats get the same as aussie residents less about $40 or so dollars a fortnight which is an allowance that would only be used if you were resident in Australia. It is paid every 2 weeks and is in the region of $1750 a month. It is reviewed every 6 months and generally is raised about $10 a fortnight. UK expats get no rises in their pensions if they live in Thailand so the aussie pensioner is far better off here. The aussie pension is also not working life and tax related but dependant on years residency in the country. Most pensioners must have 35 years residency to qualify for the full pension. If you have only lived in oz for, say, 20 years you get  20/35ths of the pension. Some countries, like NZ have special agreements.

[Farang99]

On 4/6/2018 at 12:23 PM, Rally123 said:

And how much would it cost the UK if all those expats were to return home? I'm sure the UK saves heaps of money due to pensioners living overseas. So to penalise expats and get us to return home is counter productive surely?

The problem with your statement is that it is logical, and therefore irrelevant to political decision making

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, Farang99 said:

The problem with your statement is that it is logical, and therefore irrelevant to political decision making

And what benefits do you imagine those returning pensioners might be able to get! The government knows there's very little financial overhead from a returning pensioner.

[Minnehaha]

What is the avg state pension in UK? What is max?

At what age can they start drawing?

 

[mommysboy]

Just to recap: the UK pension is contribution based.  It is calculated by the number of years contributed to a maximum of 35.  Those who have 16, say, have the same rights as those who have the full number.

 

Unlike other systems, it is not based on residency- even non UK nationals living out of UK are part of it-  and it is neither a welfare benefit or subject to means testing- it is a pure pension scheme. 

 

The above is absolute fact.

 

 

But the Government could be within its rights to change tax allowances of a UK expat, ie, charge tax on the full amount.  Also, since the yearly increment does not form the base pension at the time of maturation then I guess it can legally withold the increase.  My guess anyway.

 

Imo, just because a few Tory nuts like the idea of doing relatively poor people out of their dues it doesn't mean that it could possibly happen.  

 

I do think the affluent pensioner,ie, those with 2 pensions and property, look set to be slammed in the future, and I'm not sure it is not well deserved.

 

 

[Letseng]

7 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I do think some thanks is due to OP: it does show what the powers that be are thinking about.  I can well imagine pensioners being hit left right and centre, but only the well heeled ones.  It was them that wanted Brexit after all, and I guess it is they who are going to pay for it!

Many pro Brexit votes came from the less well off, "migrants steal our jobs". 

 

I wonder why the OP doesn't post this subject on a British expat forum where it would make a larger no. people aware of what may be in store for them? Many plan to retire to Spain, Portugal and Hungary. 

 

[Laza 45]

On 4/6/2018 at 7:13 PM, Lamkyong said:

please tell what is the Australian method ?? 

Good question..  the original question makes a lot of assumptions.. but not stated..  First there a 2 main types of OZ pension..  1. a disability pension for people with permanent injury or condition that prevents them from working.. the rules for this pension have tightened up a lot in the last few years.. I don't know all the details but a few years ago a person on a disability pension could leave the country and collect for 6 months.. return and go away again..  Not so now..  I am not sure exactly how long  a person could go away for now but I believe it is only 1 month a year.. I could be corrected on this..

2.. the Old Age Pension..  the age you can get this pension has gone up from 65 to 67 in the last few years..  The rules regarding eligibility have changed a bit but still basically is related to how long you have been in the country..  and your pension can be reduced depending on your level of asserts..  Once you get an Australian Old Age Pension you are free to travel and collect it out of the country.. You can lose residency after 5 years away.. you can still collect your pension but you can loose medicare-cover.. which can be a big problem if you are in advanced years and unable to get private insurance..   An old age pension is made up of several components.. the basic pension ..which is most of it... and supplements.. for various things  .. you can loose some of the supplements when out of the country..  I'm in Australia at the moment renewing my visa.. I get about $50 more a fortnight while I'm here..   I don't get a full pension because I have a small private one, a small investment and a small Canadian pension but I don't loose a lot for that..  I get about $830 a fortnight when out of the country and about 870 or 80 when here.. it varies a bit from month to month..  

[Rally123]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

And what benefits do you imagine those returning pensioners might be able to get!

All the benefits of a person now residing in the UK is the answer. The biggest one being the NHS. On leaving the UK I was being paid benefits but I declared my leaving to Thailand. I could have said nowt, keeping my UK address, and carried on claiming those benefits. I didn't as I'm an honest person. I do receive a UK  benefit here and that is 'Industrial Injuries Benefit'. The only one that I can/could keep anywhere in the world. 

So going back to the UK and claiming all the benefits available to me, similar to 1,000's of other expats, would be a big hit to the government. Plus, as I said, I and other expats would increase the burden on the NHS considerably. Which was one of the reasons argued as to why expats should get annual State Pension increments.  

Edited April 8, 2018 by Rally123

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

All the benefits of a person now residing in the UK is the answer. The biggest one being the NHS. On leaving the UK I was being paid benefits but I declared my leaving to Thailand. I could have said nowt, keeping my UK address, and carried on claiming those benefits. I didn't as I'm an honest person. I do receive a UK  benefit here and that is 'Industrial Injuries Benefit'. The only one that I can/could keep anywhere in the world. 

So going back to the UK and claiming all the benefits available to me, similar to 1,000's of other expats, would be a big hit to the government. Plus, as I said, I and other expats would increase the burden on the NHS considerably.

you would have to get an appointment first, in a paper today it was reported that many Brits choose to go private abroad as the waiting times are a catastrophe in the UK. 

[altcar bob]

Just now, soalbundy said:

you would have to get an appointment first, in a paper today it was reported that many Brits choose to go private abroad as the waiting times are a catastrophe in the UK. 

yank i swam with for years went to Chennai for hip op,amazed at ward full of English soccer players there for surgery,  Boyes hospital,or similar sounding,dirt cheap too compared with private UK and especially Thailand

[Rally123]

35 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

you would have to get an appointment first, in a paper today it was reported that many Brits choose to go private abroad as the waiting times are a catastrophe in the UK. 

But the benefits I would receive from the UK government would cover my 'private abroad' hospital costs. As an expat dumping myself back in the UK I win. I lose by living in Thailand financially.

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

But the benefits I would receive from the UK government would cover my 'private abroad' hospital costs. As an expat dumping myself back in the UK I win. I lose by living in Thailand financially.

Just make sure your earnings aren't over £11,800 per year and also, try and find somebody to pay your council tax and heating costs in the winter, otherwise, you do lose. BTW I understand some local councils are now running appreciation courses for the colour grey which will of course be useful when looking at the sky from time to time.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Rally123 said:

But the benefits I would receive from the UK government would cover my 'private abroad' hospital costs. As an expat dumping myself back in the UK I win. I lose by living in Thailand financially.

I don't know because I haven't lived there for so long, I don't know how things work or don't work over there, any knowledge I have comes from newspapers or extended family still in the UK (the rest have left for Australia) It doesn't seem as easy as it used to be. When my father was still alive he visited me in Germany (20 years ago) he had trouble with his leg and walked with a slight limp,I said he should visit my doctor as he hadn't, even in those days, been able to get a reasonable appointment in the UK, he was amazed that we could just go to the doctors without an appointment, the doc checked his leg said he had an idea what it was but an x-ray was needed, he gave him a referral to my local hospital for the same afternoon, two days later he had a minor OP under local anesthetic, problem solved. As for the bill they couldn't take cash they had to send a statement first so they sent it to me at my German address, no problem and it wasn't even that expensive. My father, a die hard flag waving, sink the Bismark Brit ( he was in the navy in WW2), was impressed. 

[Krataiboy]

Should the UK government implement this plan AND remove the personal tax allowance from non-residents as has been mooted, I suspect that many UK pensioners will simply have no choice but to return to their homeland to see out their twilight years.

 

I reckon UK pensioners resident here could lose between 20 and 30 per cent of our present income if and when this double whammy hits, on top of having our state pensions frozen ever since we arrived (Because of price inflation, mine is  worth, in real terms, less than half its original value).

 

On top of this, as Thailand continues to become more developed and prosperous, living costs are climbing steeply. The pound  shows no sign of making up the ground it has lost to the baht in the foreseeable future - and, according to the experts, could continue to decline.

 

Not much for us Brits to smile about in the Land of Smiles right now. It's just a case of fingers crossed and hope. 

 

PS: I gather the justification for the Aussie decision to slash expat pensioners was was based on an assumption that those who were married had a wife who could be earning. I can't wait for the day I have to tell my missus, who is still busy raising the last two of a family of five, to go and find a job or we'll be in queer street!

Edited April 8, 2018 by Krataiboy

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

Should the UK government implement this plan AND remove the personal tax allowance from non-residents as has been mooted, I suspect that many UK pensioners will simply have no choice but to return to their homeland to see out their twilight years.

 

I reckon UK pensioners resident here could lose between 20 and 30 per cent of our present income if and when this double whammy hits, on top of having our state pensions frozen ever since we arrived (Because of price inflation, my  is  worth, in real terms, less than half its original value).

 

On top of this, as Thailand continues to develop and wages rise, and living costs are climbing steeply, the pound  shows no sign of making up the ground it has lost to the dollar in foreseeable future - and, according to the experts, could continue to decline.

 

Not much for us to smile about in the Land of Smiles right now. It's just a case of fingers crossed and hope. 

 

I gather the justification for the Aussie decision to slash expat pensioners was was based on an assumption that those who were married had a wife who could be earning. I can't wait for the day I have to tell my missus, who is still busy raising the last two of a family of five, to go and find a job or we'll be in queer street!

Even, assuming that many pensioners no longer have property in the UK, if they went back there is very little affordable property to rent and you with 5 kids would find it almost impossible,in fact it would be unlikely,if your wife and children are Thai, that you would have the income necessary to take them with you. The income restrictions regarding your visa here would go down I believe if it was based on supporting a Thai child / children.

[Laza 45]

11 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

Should the UK government implement this plan AND remove the personal tax allowance from non-residents as has been mooted, I suspect that many UK pensioners will simply have no choice but to return to their homeland to see out their twilight years.

 

I reckon UK pensioners resident here could lose between 20 and 30 per cent of our present income if and when this double whammy hits, on top of having our state pensions frozen ever since we arrived (Because of price inflation, my  is  worth, in real terms, less than half its original value).

 

On top of this, as Thailand continues to become more developed and prosperous, living costs are climbing steeply. The pound  shows no sign of making up the ground it has lost to the baht in the foreseeable future - and, according to the experts, could continue to decline.

 

Not much for us Brits to smile about in the Land of Smiles right now. It's just a case of fingers crossed and hope. 

 

PS: I gather the justification for the Aussie decision to slash expat pensioners was was based on an assumption that those who were married had a wife who could be earning. I can't wait for the day I have to tell my missus, who is still busy raising the last two of a family of five, to go and find a job or we'll be in queer street!

Where does the idea that Aussie pensions have been slashed come from??    I have been on the Aussie Old Age Pension for 8 years now.. no slashing here..  The Disability pension has been tightened up so those on it can only be out of the country a very limited time but no change to the old age pension.. When out of the country for a few months an old age pensioner does loose some supplements but this is a minor loss.. about $40 or $50 a fortnight.. and if an Ozzie expats gets married and his wife is of working age he can loose part of his pension.. I'm not sure exactly but about $100 a fortnight a friend in that situation tells me.... not disastrous.. on a pension of $850 to $1,000 a fortnight still enough to live on in Thailand..  There have been changes to indexation but pensions are still adjusted according to the Consumer Price Index which is designed to maintain a pensions value over time.. 

[sawadee1947]

19 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

 

I live here, I've been here for 16 years and I can afford to live pretty much anywhere that I chose (within reason), I have a flat back in the UK but I chose to remain here, there are plenty of people like me in Thailand.

And I know plenty living in a small simple hose with an old motor bike, just enough money in their wallet to buy the cheapest food on a market. Most of them are even simple minds

[mommysboy]

18 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

Where does the idea that Aussie pensions have been slashed come from??    I have been on the Aussie Old Age Pension for 8 years now.. no slashing here..  The Disability pension has been tightened up so those on it can only be out of the country a very limited time but no change to the old age pension.. When out of the country for a few months an old age pensioner does loose some supplements but this is a minor loss.. about $40 or $50 a fortnight.. and if an Ozzie expats gets married and his wife is of working age he can loose part of his pension.. I'm not sure exactly but about $100 a fortnight a friend in that situation tells me.... not disastrous.. on a pension of $850 to $1,000 a fortnight still enough to live on in Thailand..  There have been changes to indexation but pensions are still adjusted according to the Consumer Price Index which is designed to maintain a pensions value over time.. 

Yes.  It's a similar set up in Denmark.  You lose the means-tested element that is designed to help with living costs in your home country, because you are not living there.  It can be quite a bit for Danes.

 

The pittance that is a UK state pension does not have the welfare element. 

[Kwasaki]

22 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

And I know plenty living in a small simple hose with an old motor bike, just enough money in their wallet to buy the cheapest food on a market. Most of them are even simple minds

Good job their here in Thailand and not under the railway arches in UK then I would say.

[simoh1490]

29 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

And I know plenty living in a small simple hose with an old motor bike, just enough money in their wallet to buy the cheapest food on a market. Most of them are even simple minds

And, your point is?

[sawadee1947]

57 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

And, your point is?

YOU pretend to know and I replied. End of story.

[Letseng]

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

you would have to get an appointment first, in a paper today it was reported that many Brits choose to go private abroad as the waiting times are a catastrophe in the UK. 

Waiting times vary from city to city. 

Situation is no different in most EU countries. Try Germany: you die before your appointment comes up. 3 months to see a cardiologist.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, Letseng said:

Waiting times vary from city to city. 

Situation is no different in most EU countries. Try Germany: you die before your appointment comes up. 3 months to see a cardiologist.

I've never even had to make an appointment to see a doctor or a specialist in Munich, walk straight in.

[mommysboy]

I was in Uk a year or so ago and the service was very good.  Also a friend of mine had an eye problem recently and they gave him emergency surgery within an hour.  My mother and father were also treated very, very well.  I think it depends on the region.

[Jonnapat]

I would strongly suggest that you change your political persuasion. 

The Conservative party is well known for not giving a toss about pensioners