If you have two jobs, what is appropriate visa for you?

[LolaS]

46 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Don't think it is a mistake but more convenient for them because:

1) you are vulnerable when you are in an non legal situation, the labour office (who supplies work permits) is a strong defender of the employees when there is an issue between employer and employee. 

2) it will cost them quite some effort / money to get the paperwork done.

3) they think they will not have a problem

 

I just return from HR. I show them this post and replies, 

 

they explained to me that the regulation on which you are referring are correct but it is not applicable to their institution.

Somehow, every higher institution have the special law ( it is not under Higher education aw as I thought it is, that is now is in most Europe)

They showed me law, signed by King and proposed by the prime minister,  that labor law and the financial law is not applicable for this institution. Which is explicitly mentioned and explain in that law.

 

I didnt know there are separate laws for institutions, 

[LolaS]

31 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Apparently your extensions of stay have been applied for under one of the categories that does not require a work permit.

You would not be able to get another visa or extension if it was needed unless you were to end your current job and relocated to Bangkok.

You could get a work permit in Bangkok for the job if your employer was willing to sponsor it. You might need permission from your current employer to apply for it though.

I will ask institution in BKK also what should I do.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, LolaS said:

I question why would they allow me to lecture 5 years without Work permit? and how to explain in BKK why I didn't have WP if they ask for one?

Are they going to ask me to get a new visa? the one I have expired 5 years ago, I am on extension based on contract, which state that I have also part devoted to students. why no one realized in 5 years that it was illegal to have students without WP. but again why would HR and legal department make mistake?

Because through a combination of their 'rules', laziness, language and the fact that it is their country where enforcement of the rule of law can be either arbitrary, non-existent or both, they can?

 

It is possible that your ability to flip-flop around between research, lecturing or study without a WP has been enabled by the fact that you were in academia, kept a low profile, didn't have too much interaction with peers or foreigners in a similarly gray area and basically kept your head below the parapet.

 

As I said earlier, 5 years ago, a whole lot more people were working in Thailand, some enabled by similar, imprecise application of the labour and immigration laws. Things have been changing.

 

AFAIK, when one changes work and/or employer, any immigration extension of stay expires with the expiration of that work. A new job and/or employer would require you to get a new visa in order to proceed with a new WP application. I may be incorrect and someone else may have the absolute correct word on this but I think one has to surrender the WP to the Labour office in person within 7 days of job termination and depart the realm within 24-hours of the WP being surrendered.

 

If you fear that your current, 5-year, non-WP, below-the-radar tenure could be undone by taking up the second appointment, maybe that second job option isn't such a good idea?

[Brunolem]

22 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Your comment is less than accurate and not appreciated.

There are arrogant and not arrogant  / pleasant and not pleasant people in every occupation / every walk of life.

 

One will probably find more arrogant people in academia than in, say, gardening or farming...

There are arrogant people in every occupation, but not in the same proportion.

Academia tends to be at the top when it comes to arrogance, with all these "professors" and Phds who insist on being called "doctor"!

 

[Swimman]

5 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

One will probably find more arrogant people in academia than in, say, gardening or farming...

There are arrogant people in every occupation, but not in the same proportion.

Academia tends to be at the top when it comes to arrogance, with all these "professors" and Phds who insist on being called "doctor"!

 

You clearly are not acquainted with many academics or those with a PhD who never use the title of Dr. other than on published academic papers or official correspondence.

[Brunolem]

4 minutes ago, Swimman said:

You clearly are not acquainted with many academics or those with a PhD who never use the title of Dr. other than on published academic papers or official correspondence.

I am talking about proportions...

If, say, 10% of the academics are arrogant, that is still much more than 0.2% of the gardeners, or 1% of the hairdressers.

In some specialties, such as medicine (professors teaching in universities) arrogance levels are through the roof...but then again, they are real doctors...

[Get Real]

3 hours ago, LolaS said:

Do you know where in BKK I can ask if I need work permit? Is it advisable to ask them if 5 years I was without WP in CNX?

I can not possibly answer you on if it is advisable to state that you have worked 5 years wothout. I would just try to explain the nature of the work, and ask if that requires a work permit.
In this case I would suggest that you ask the question directly to The Department of Employment at The Ministry of Labour.

[NanLaew]

42 minutes ago, LolaS said:

I just return from HR. I show them this post and replies, 

 

they explained to me that the regulation on which you are referring are correct but it is not applicable to their institution.

Somehow, every higher institution have the special law ( it is not under Higher education aw as I thought it is, that is now is in most Europe)

They showed me law, signed by King and proposed by the prime minister,  that labor law and the financial law is not applicable for this institution. Which is explicitly mentioned and explain in that law.

 

I didnt know there are separate laws for institutions, 

We live and learn as they say.

 

In my line of work, the Thai Department of Energy (DMF) have a special arrangement with oil and gas operators and the Labour office regarding temporary WP's for short term assignments exceeding 3 weeks but typically less than 6 months. The paperwork is filed, fees paid but the actual paper book WP is never issued. This is different from a published procedure for 'emergency' visa/WP for technical and other emergencies capped at 21-days, non-extendable and limited to one/person/year. Some of the legacy operators are aware of ">than 3 week, <6 month option" but regrettably last year, my client (a new-ish operator all dressed up in their corporate transparency outfit) insisted on doing it the 'proper' way, ie. the standard way. This meant a lot of people spending a lot of time and money getting visas for a proper WP for a job that was only ever scheduled to last 3 weeks anyway but went to 5 weeks due to the add-on WP rigmarole.

 

Good luck with your choices and let us know how it all pans out.

[LolaS]

Before or around the middle of May, I would get a reply from BKK.

[greenchair]

22 hours ago, elviajero said:

You can repeat it as often as you like, but being married has absolutely no influence on whether or not a job requires a WP.

 

Any occupation/employment/position requires permission unless it is exempt. Being married does not exempt any occupation/employment/position requiring permission from needing permission.

You can repeat that all you want. I just follow the law as it is written in the alien work act. 

Section 4  (6).

It says if you are contributing to education, no need for wp. 

Ask ubonjoe, .

Say what you like. 

It's just your opinion with nothing to back it up. 

Read the Thai law. 

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, greenchair said:

You can repeat that all you want. I just follow the law as it is written in the alien work act. 

Section 4  (6).

It says if you are contributing to education, no need for wp. 

Ask ubonjoe, .

Say what you like. 

It's just your opinion with nothing to back it up. 

Read the Thai law. 

I know the Alien Employment Act and section 4. It doesn't say anywhere that someone that is married doesn't need permission if "contributing to education". That is my proof. If you believe that is wrong then quote the part of the act that backs up your claim.

 

It doesn't mean that any "contribution to education" doesn't need a WP. It's only those positions stipulated by royal decree that are exempt.

Edited April 23, 2018 by elviajero

[greenchair]

12 hours ago, elviajero said:

I know the Alien Employment Act and section 4. It doesn't say anywhere that someone that is married doesn't need permission if "contributing to education". That is my proof. If you believe that is wrong then quote the part of the act that backs up your claim.

 

It doesn't mean that any "contribution to education" doesn't need a WP. It's only those positions stipulated by royal decree that are exempt.

Of course it doesn't. 

But if you are on a tourist visa and working then you are not following the purpose of the visa and would be deported. 

Though you would not be prosecuted for working with out a permit. 

That is not the case with a marriage visa. 

[manchega]

this is interesting,  does this mean the marriage visa means one may work anywhere without WP?

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, manchega said:

this is interesting,  does this mean the marriage visa means one may work anywhere without WP?

No. @greenchair is giving wrong information.

 

Being married, and having a non-immigrant visa entry or an extension of stay based on being married, entitles you to apply for a work permit without needing a category ‘B’ visa/entry.

 

Being married doesn’t give any entitlement to work. You can only work if you have permission, which for most people is in the form of a work permit.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, greenchair said:

Of course it doesn't. 

But if you are on a tourist visa and working then you are not following the purpose of the visa and would be deported. 

Though you would not be prosecuted for working with out a permit. 

That is not the case with a marriage visa. 

Anyone could be prosecuted for working without permission. Even if married.

 

I don’t think you understand the difference between the function of visas/stay permits and work permits.

 

You’re not helping anyone with your misinformation!

[greenchair]

55 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No. @greenchair is giving wrong information.

 

Being married, and having a non-immigrant visa entry or an extension of stay based on being married, entitles you to apply for a work permit without needing a category ‘B’ visa/entry.

 

Being married doesn’t give any entitlement to work. You can only work if you have permission, which for most people is in the form of a work permit.

Ubonjoe posted the section 4 law. 

Read it. 

[ubonjoe]

17 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Ubonjoe posted the section 4 law. 

Read it. 

Section 4 is very general in what it says.

It certainly does not state you can be a tutor without a work permit.

Clause 6 mentions educations but I doubt that is in a Royal Decree.

 

 

 

 

[greenchair]

52 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Anyone could be prosecuted for working without permission. Even if married.

 

I don’t think you understand the difference between the function of visas/stay permits and work permits.

 

You’re not helping anyone with your misinformation!

Not according to section 4 (6)

It's says it right there everyone should have a work permit except when 

.......

Assisting in education.

Read it and weep. 

Can't be false information. 

It's written right there in the government Gazette and posted by thaivisa guru ubonjoe. 

[greenchair]

14 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Section 4 is very general in what it says.

It certainly does not state you can be a tutor without a work permit.

Clause 6 mentions educations but I doubt that is in a Royal Decree.

 

 

 

 

Would you mind to Please post the full law section 4 first paragraph together with  (6)

And your current comment.

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Would you mind to Please post the full law section 4 first paragraph together with  (6)

Why?

It is here on page 3.

 

[greenchair]

On 4/22/2018 at 8:13 AM, ubonjoe said:

There are a few cases where a work permit is not required. R&D at a institute or university is one of them. 

This from the alien working act.

 

 

Section 4 . This act DOES NOT apply to duty and performance in the kingdom of aliens, PARTICULARLY in the following positions.

(6) for the advantages of educations.

With all the thousands of people caught teaching in Thailand without a permit, and yet not a single one prosecuted. 

 

I actually was prosecuted in a different case by the ministry of education. But they could not add working without a permit. 

The important factor was that my visa was a marriage visa. I know well this law. 

[Swimman]

2 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Section 4 . This act DOES NOT apply to duty and performance in the kingdom of aliens, PARTICULARLY in the following positions.

(6) for the advantages of educations.

With all the thousands of people caught teaching in Thailand without a permit, and yet not a single one prosecuted. 

 

I actually was prosecuted in a different case by the ministry of education. But they could not add working without a permit. 

The important factor was that my visa was a marriage visa. I know well this law. 

If you know the law you will be able to post the Royal Decree referenced in 4.6 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

Ubonjoe posted the section 4 law. 

Read it. 

I have. I suggest you follow your own advice, but you should also try to understand it.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

Not according to section 4 (6)

It's says it right there everyone should have a work permit except when 

.......

Assisting in education.

Read it and weep. 

Can't be false information. 

It's written right there in the government Gazette and posted by thaivisa guru ubonjoe. 

You are misquoting the law, and no one has posted anything written in the "government Gazette".

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

On 22/04/2018 at 2:13 AM, ubonjoe said:

There are a few cases where a work permit is not required. R&D at a institute or university is one of them. 

This from the alien working act.

 

 

Section 4 . This act DOES NOT apply to duty and performance in the kingdom of aliens, PARTICULARLY in the following positions.

(6) for the advantages of educations. 

Try reading the whole of Section 4 (6). You're missing the most important part.

 

"Persons performing duties or missions for the advantage of educations ... SHALL BE STIPULATED BY THE ROYAL DECREE."

 

There has never been a royal decree exempting ALL jobs in education. ONLY duties or missions stipulated in the Royal Gazette are exempt.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

With all the thousands of people caught teaching in Thailand without a permit, and yet not a single one prosecuted. 

I doubt there are thousands. The main reason most aren't prosecuted is because it's not worth the hassle. They get fined and or asked to leave the country.

 

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

I actually was prosecuted in a different case by the ministry of education. But they could not add working without a permit. 

The important factor was that my visa was a marriage visa. I know well this law

Why would the Ministry of Education be prosecuting you, and for doing what? Illegal work is usually prosecuted by the Department of Labour or The Immigration Bureau.

 

Illegal work can also be prosecuted under the Immigration Act. Unless you are working for an employer it is hard to prosecute someone under the Alien Employment Act for not having a work permit that they don't qualify for.

 

You clearly don't know the law. You are selectively quoting the law to suit your own misunderstanding/opinion.

[LolaS]

WOW, nothing happened. they are unable to help me.

Since there is law there, probably is also in BKK. so they would ask legal services, which somehow are clueless of what is going on