UK visit visa helper insisting vfs need to see flight booking

[Lancashirelad]

Hi guys. I am in the process of assisting my lady friend with the UK visit visa application process. Not entirely with my blessing she enlisted the help of a recommended Thai person with, apparently, considerable experience in such matters.  I have asked them directly what their level of experience is, but my question was not answered. They are insisting that VFS require to see a flight already booked. Evidently they are able to make, free of charge, a temporary booking. The real flight can be booked after the decision.

 

The UK.gov information pages, in particular ref. supporting docs. sect. 4. Documents not required, includes flight details. 

In my letter of invitation, I have stated that we do not yet have exact dates as the flight will not be booked until after the decision, but they are insistent on making the fake booking. I do not think it should be necessary.

 

What's your thoughts guys?

Edited May 10, 2018 by Lancashirelad

[Jip99]

Rubbish.......as I suspect you realize.

 

VfS insist on nothing they are simply the processing agents. Take a look on the UK Gov website - they expressly state that flights should NOT be booked until a visa has been approved.

 

Different for a Schengen visa where flight and accommodation bookings need to be supplied.

 

 

Did you prepare the online application - and you sponsor?

Edited May 10, 2018 by Jip99

[rasg]

1 hour ago, Lancashirelad said:

Hi guys. I am in the process of assisting my lady friend with the UK visit visa application process. Not entirely with my blessing she enlisted the help of a recommended Thai person with, apparently, considerable experience in such matters.  I have asked them directly what their level of experience is, but my question was not answered. They are insisting that VFS require to see a flight already booked. Evidently they are able to make, free of charge, a temporary booking. The real flight can be booked after the decision.

 

The UK.gov information pages, in particular ref. supporting docs. sect. 4. Documents not required, includes flight details. 

In my letter of invitation, I have stated that we do not yet have exact dates as the flight will not be booked until after the decision, but they are insistent on making the fake booking. I do not think it should be necessary.

 

What's your thoughts guys?

My thoughts are that you need to drop the use of this advisor...

 

I wouldn't be surprised that their next recommendation will be that you put 50,000 baht in her account. It’s the worst thing you can do.

 

Do it yourself with the help of the many people on here who have done it before who will be happy to help.

[Dave8237]

2 hours ago, rasg said:

My thoughts are that you need to drop the use of this advisor...

 

I wouldn't be surprised that their next recommendation will be that you put 50,000 baht in her account. It’s the worst thing you can do.

 

Do it yourself with the help of the many people on here who have done it before who will be happy to help.

Totally agree, I have done the application on line 3 times no flights have ever been booked, and we have been granted visas 3 times now..........

 

Hope you get the visa which ever way you decide to do it

[theoldgit]

Indeed, as others have said, VFS don't require anything, they're just a mail drop, as you rightly say the UKVI specifically advise against buying a non refundable ticket and ask for tickets not to be included with supporting evidence, she can submit a draft an itinerary if she wishes though.

 

You need to encourage your lady friend to drop her "helper". 

[Donutz]

9 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Different for a Schengen visa where flight and accommodation bookings need to be supplied.

 

False.  For a Schengen visa you need to show proof of accommodation (yes that would most likely  be a hotel booking for a tourist but other documents could be accepted).  But a flight reservation is all a Schengen embassy wishes to see. Some -last time I checked the carious official embassy/MFA websites- explicitly remind people that paid booking is not required, (and could be a waste of money) for those who don't quite understand the difference between a reservation and a booking.

 

The Schengen Code on Visa says:

----

ANNEX II

Non-exhaustive list of supporting documents

The supporting documents referred to in Article 14, to be submitted by visa applicants may include the following:

A.

DOCUMENTATION RELATING TO THE PURPOSE OF THE JOURNEY (...) 3 . for journeys undertaken for the purposes of tourism or for private reasons: (a) documents relating to accommodation: — an invitation from the host if staying with one, — a document from the establishment providing accommodation or any other appropriate document indicating the accommodation envisaged; (b) documents relating to the itinerary: — confirmation of the booking of an organised trip or any other appropriate document indicating the envisaged travel plans, — in the case of transit: visa or other entry permit for the third country of destination; tickets for onward journey;

 

B.

DOCUMENTATION ALLOWING FOR THE ASSESSMENT OF THE APPLICANT’S INTENTION TO LEAVE THE TERRITORY OF THE MEMBER STATES 1. reservation of or return or round ticket; 2. proof of financial means in the country of residence; 3. proof of employment: bank statements; 4. proof of real estate property; 5. proof of integration into the country of residence: family ties; professional status.

 

---

Source: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32009R0810

[Jip99]

13 minutes ago, Donutz said:

False.  For a Schengen visa you need to show proof of accommodation (yes that would most likely  be a hotel booking for a tourist but other documents could be accepted).  But a flight reservation is all a Schengen embassy wishes to see. Some -last time I checked the carious official embassy/MFA websites- explicitly remind people that paid booking is not required, (and could be a waste of money) for those who don't quite understand the difference between a reservation and a booking.

 

The Schengen Code on Visa says:

----

ANNEX II

Non-exhaustive list of supporting documents

The supporting documents referred to in Article 14, to be submitted by visa applicants may include the following:

A.

DOCUMENTATION RELATING TO THE PURPOSE OF THE JOURNEY (...) 3 . for journeys undertaken for the purposes of tourism or for private reasons: (a) documents relating to accommodation: — an invitation from the host if staying with one, — a document from the establishment providing accommodation or any other appropriate document indicating the accommodation envisaged; (b) documents relating to the itinerary: — confirmation of the booking of an organised trip or any other appropriate document indicating the envisaged travel plans, — in the case of transit: visa or other entry permit for the third country of destination; tickets for onward journey;

 

B.

DOCUMENTATION ALLOWING FOR THE ASSESSMENT OF THE APPLICANT’S INTENTION TO LEAVE THE TERRITORY OF THE MEMBER STATES 1. reservation of or return or round ticket; 2. proof of financial means in the country of residence; 3. proof of employment: bank statements; 4. proof of real estate property; 5. proof of integration into the country of residence: family ties; professional status.

 

---

Source: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32009R0810

 

 

Flight and hotel (if using hotels) bookings are required in the name of the applicant.

 

That is not false.

[Donutz]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Flight and hotel (if using hotels) bookings are required in the name of the applicant.

 

That is not false.

Make that 'flight reservation and an accommodation  booking (if using a  hotel) are required' and you will indeed be correct. :)

[Jip99]

16 minutes ago, Donutz said:

Make that 'flight reservation and an accommodation  booking (if using a  hotel) are required' and you will indeed be correct. :)

 

 

BLS quote “flight bookings”..?

 

https://thailand.blsspainvisa.com/tourist.php

[Lancashirelad]

To those who replied on topic, UK visa, thank you for your input.

 

[Lancashirelad]

12 hours ago, Jip99 said:

Rubbish.......as I suspect you realize.

 

VfS insist on nothing they are simply the processing agents. Take a look on the UK Gov website - they expressly state that flights should NOT be booked until a visa has been approved.

 

Different for a Schengen visa where flight and accommodation bookings need to be supplied.

 

 

Did you prepare the online application - and you sponsor?

 

Yes I've seen the wording on the Gov website and sent it to them. You know the type of response you get, "This is Thailand, everything different"

 

I ran a ghost application inputting most of the information, then printed it and mailed it to my lady so she could see all the questions. She is intelligent with a good level of spoken & written English and not without her own financial means. Yes, I am the sponsor. I have made it very clear that I must ok the info given before it is submitted.

[Lancashirelad]

12 hours ago, rasg said:

My thoughts are that you need to drop the use of this advisor...

 

I wouldn't be surprised that their next recommendation will be that you put 50,000 baht in her account. It’s the worst thing you can do.

 

Do it yourself with the help of the many people on here who have done it before who will be happy to help.

Thanks. The money request won't come, it's not needed, lady has more than adequate funds. 

[The Fat Controller]

Unless the advice has changed since my wife visited, the guidance notes advise NOT to book a flight prior to a visa being issued.

It is not needed by VFS at the application centre.

If you can afford a fully refundable flexible ticket that's fine, but it won't be cheap.

[Donutz]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

BLS quote “flight bookings”..?

 

https://thailand.blsspainvisa.com/tourist.php

Then BLS has got it wrong, or rather the Spaniards since for Schengen visas the external service providers (BLS, VFS, TLS) are entirely optional. They are a glorified mailbox, forwarding the papers to the embassy (where people can make the application too if they wish, though be it generally by appointment only). The embassy sets the instructions/check list for the service provider. But as you can see, me quoting the EU legislation  on Schengen visas clearly shows that a reservation is sufficient. The Spaniards would be violating the rules if they insist on a flight booking by default (obviously on a case to case basis embassies can ask for additional paperwork). But then again those on this forum probably know all too well that Spain has a habit of ignoring EU rules and making up their own  (such as the topics on Spain giving the middle finger to visa applications under freedom of movement rights). 

 

But I guess that not enough people bother to e-mail the embassy, the MFA in Madrid or EU Home Affairs in Brussels ( JUST-CITIZENSHIP {at} ec.europa.eu ) to point out this 'error' / violation.

[Jip99]

16 minutes ago, Donutz said:

Then BLS has got it wrong, or rather the Spaniards since for Schengen visas the external service providers (BLS, VFS, TLS) are entirely optional. They are a glorified mailbox, forwarding the papers to the embassy (where people can make the application too if they wish, though be it generally by appointment only). The embassy sets the instructions/check list for the service provider. But as you can see, me quoting the EU legislation  on Schengen visas clearly shows that a reservation is sufficient. The Spaniards would be violating the rules if they insist on a flight booking by default (obviously on a case to case basis embassies can ask for additional paperwork). But then again those on this forum probably know all too well that Spain has a habit of ignoring EU rules and making up their own  (such as the topics on Spain giving the middle finger to visa applications under freedom of movement rights). 

 

But I guess that not enough people bother to e-mail the embassy, the MFA in Madrid or EU Home Affairs in Brussels ( JUST-CITIZENSHIP {at} ec.europa.eu ) to point out this 'error' / violation.

 

 

I take your point - and for example, a Booking.com hotel booking satisfies criteria but can be cancelled......therefore worthless.

 

However, when you are dealing with the likes of BLS you have to dance to their tune. The Spanish embassy flatly refused to see ‘us’ so we had to tick BLS’s boxes..... no problem to do so but I do question pointless/inconsistent rules.

[theoldgit]

Guys, this thread is about UK visa applications, can we stick to that please?
Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, Lancashirelad said:

To those who replied on topic, UK visa, thank you for your input.

 

 

You are arguably not required.

 

Your friend has sufficient funds and she can, no doubt,  explain a genuine reason to visit and also reasons to return to Thailand. 

 

If you are the reason to visit, or sole accommodation provider, then yes - if a tourist visitor then you are.......with apologies..... superfluous. ?

[Lancashirelad]

17 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

You are arguably not required.

 

Your friend has sufficient funds and she can, no doubt,  explain a genuine reason to visit and also reasons to return to Thailand. 

 

If you are the reason to visit, or sole accommodation provider, then yes - if a tourist visitor then you are.......with apologies..... superfluous. ?

I agree Jip99. There is actually no need for a sponsor, however her reason for coming is primarily to visit me and yes I will provide accommodation. Her daughter works on cruise ship that will be regularly visiting Liverpool throughout the summer, an hour from me, so she already has good enough reason.

[Lancashirelad]

On 5/11/2018 at 12:53 PM, theoldgit said:

Guys, this thread is about UK visa applications, can we stick to that please?
Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Feel free to remove any non relevant posts. It would make the on topic thread easier to follow.

[Lancashirelad]

Bit of an update guys. The so called agent encouraged my friend to supply lots of extra stuff I didn't consider necessary. i.e. Photos of us together in Thailand. I had read somewhere on the .gov site where it says "Do not send photos". They also encouraged her to provide evidence of ALL her financial affairs. I told her not to do so as it was only necessary to prove she had adequate funds for the trip. (about £35 a day I worked on).

 

Yesterday she received a telephone call asking lots of questions, presumably to see if the same answers were given as the info already given in the application. They were of course. The only thing she was caught out on was my year of birth, but she was able to tell them my age and our birthdays are 3 days apart. I hardly think that will be a reason to deny.

 

Today she has received an email: UK Visas and Immigration has made a decision on your visa application. Your documents will be ready for collection soon.

 

Anyone with experience here know if that means visa granted?

[bobrussell]

It just means the application has been processed. Paperwork will arrive back at VFS sealed therefore they have no knowledge of the decision made.

 

[Lancashirelad]

Thanks Bob.

[7by7]

4 hours ago, Lancashirelad said:

Today she has received an email: UK Visas and Immigration has made a decision on your visa application. Your documents will be ready for collection soon.

 

Anyone with experience here know if that means visa granted?

UKVI consider the result of a visa application to be strictly confidential between themselves and the applicant.

 

So, as Bob says, passports are returned to VFS in sealed envelopes for collection by or forwarding to the applicant and all applicants get the same message.

 

She wont know the result until she gets that envelope with her passport inside and opens it.

 

BTW, applicants can appoint someone to collect or receive that envelope on their behalf. I hope that your girlfriend did not appoint this so called agent as such! Some, who unfortunately Thailand's draconian defamation laws and therefore the forum rules prevent me from naming, have been known to hold onto applicants' passports until extortionate, extra fees are paid! 

[Lancashirelad]

Bad news, visa denied ☹️

 

Reasons: 1. We have known each other (online) for 2 years. During that time I have only been to Thailand to visit her once, although we did spend a month together. This was an unfortunate timing issue, we made contact just after my return from a trip to Thailand 2 years ago. Winter 2017 I couldn't go. The first time I'd missed in many years.

 

2. Her bank statement showed way more income than she had stated on the application. There was no explanation for the considerable extra income. (It is from legitimate sources)

Should this so-called experienced 'helper' not have noticed this?

 

Verdict: Insufficient reason to return - despite owning land, substantial property, 2 cars & supporting 2 family members. In other words, they see that her income is such that she doesn't need to return.

 

I feel that we have been called liars.

[Pat in Pattaya]

7 hours ago, Lancashirelad said:

Bad news, visa denied ☹️

 

Reasons: 1. We have known each other (online) for 2 years. During that time I have only been to Thailand to visit her once, although we did spend a month together. This was an unfortunate timing issue, we made contact just after my return from a trip to Thailand 2 years ago. Winter 2017 I couldn't go. The first time I'd missed in many years.

 

2. Her bank statement showed way more income than she had stated on the application. There was no explanation for the considerable extra income. (It is from legitimate sources)

Should this so-called experienced 'helper' not have noticed this?

 

Verdict: Insufficient reason to return - despite owning land, substantial property, 2 cars & supporting 2 family members. In other words, they see that her income is such that she doesn't need to return.

 

I feel that we have been called liars.

They have called you liars.

 

It always strikes me as very disrespectful and arrogant that these CEO'S think a Thai would rather stay in freezing cold, dangerous Britain than return to Thailand.

[theoldgit]

7 hours ago, Lancashirelad said:

Bad news, visa denied ☹️

 

Verdict: Insufficient reason to return - despite owning land, substantial property, 2 cars & supporting 2 family members. In other words, they see that her income is such that she doesn't need to return.

 

I feel that we have been called liars.

If you can post the refusal letter, redacting any personal details, then the guys on here might be able to offer some meaningful advice.

 

I'm not sure that anybody is calling the applicant a liar, they are just saying that she hasn't convinced the decision maker that she will return following her trip.

 

Whilst owning land and properties may go a certain way towards convincing the ECO of the genuiness of the applicant, it only goes part of the way, cars would be totally discounted. Whilst supporting a family in Thailand may also go in her favour, ECO's will be fully aware that some family members work illegally overseas, in Europe and other parts of the world, including Asia, to send cash back to their families in Thailand.

 

As you have pointed out, the source of funds in her account may have been an issue, the ECO may well have thought that her account had been padded to give the false impression that she was financially better off than she declared, this is often discussed on this forum, though obviously without sight of the refusal notice, I can do little more than make an educated guess.

 

You say that you hadn't visited her in Thailand very often, but did she provide evidence of other forms of communication, phone calls, messaging, social media and the like? 

[theoldgit]

Troll post removed.

 

[rasg]

13 hours ago, Lancashirelad said:

Reasons: 1. We have known each other (online) for 2 years. During that time I have only been to Thailand to visit her once, although we did spend a month together. This was an unfortunate timing issue, we made contact just after my return from a trip to Thailand 2 years ago. Winter 2017 I couldn't go. The first time I'd missed in many years.

 

2. Her bank statement showed way more income than she had stated on the application. There was no explanation for the considerable extra income. (It is from legitimate sources)

Should this so-called experienced 'helper' not have noticed this?

 

Verdict: Insufficient reason to return - despite owning land, substantial property, 2 cars & supporting 2 family members. In other words, they see that her income is such that she doesn't need to return.

 

I feel that we have been called liars.

When my wife applied back in June 2015 I had visited her in Thailand three times from when we met in very late January 2015. Each visit was for 8-12 days so less than your months visit but over a much shorter period.

 

When you supply financial information to UKVI you need to make sure that any bank statements back up what has been stated on the application. In my GF's case I didn’t supply bank statements at all. Just stated that her salary was paid in cash each month and it was paid out for rent and money home to family and was never banked. Better to avoid sending bank statements at all from an applicant imho. The genie is out of the bottle now and you will have to supply them for the next application.

 

They haven't called your GF a liar but she did supply inaccurate information. Maybe you should ask her why she gave different figures for her income that weren't confirmed by her bank statements. I have never let my GF/wife near her visa applications. Just had her supply me the information and I have collated it and added it to the application. Her English is pretty good but her written English is simple not good enough to understand what is required.

 

As theoldgit has said. A copy of the refusal letter is needed please. Hard to give any advice without the refusal. If it's just the finances it's relatively easy to address. If it's the one visit it's far more difficult and you probably need to visit her a couple of times before applying again.

 

Who was the "experienced helper"? A visa company?

 

 

 

 

[7by7]

Lancashirelad, sorry to hear the result. As theoldgit says, if you can post the full refusal notice, first removing all names and any other identifying information, then once we have seen exactly what the decision maker has said and why they have reached their conclusions we will be better able to advise on how to get a positive result next time.

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:02 PM, Lancashirelad said:

. Her bank statement showed way more income than she had stated on the application. There was no explanation for the considerable extra income. (It is from legitimate sources)

Should this so-called experienced 'helper' not have noticed this

Yes, her so-called 'helper' should definitely have noticed this and ensured that the total income figure your girlfriend stated in the application was the same as that shown her bank statements!

 

The decision maker can only make their decision based upon the information they have been given. If, as in this case, that information is contradictory then they have little choice other than to refuse.

[Lancashirelad]

Thanks for your comments all. I will post the refusal letter, but as I only have a photo of it and it includes personal details, I will need to type it all in. I'll do it as soon as time permits.