How Much Do Govt. Schools Get For Foreign Teachers?

[MrPatrickThai]

On 6/29/2018 at 7:10 PM, ozmeldo said:

If it blows up, go to Vietnam or China so what.

 

 

Some teachers have property here, kids at school etc.

 

It's time teachers stuck together, stood up for their rights.

 

If you don't, the greedy schools, whose teachers are all in big debt will accept any body to take the job.

 

They WILL accept teachers that they don't want nor like, especially from African countries.

 

After working her for over 30 years, I know what Thais think about African, Arabs, Indian, Burmese, Cambodians, and trust me it is not good, in fact it is downright disgusting. I could name some Thai proverbs and saying but Thai language is not permitted and I would probably be accused of being racist, which I am not, having a Moroccan wife.

 

I have 4 children who have been through the Thai education system in various different schools, private and government. Not once were there any teachers from the above countries, apart from one nun from Nepal at a Catholic school.

 

So teachers, DON'T yield to the pressure, refuse these jobs for $1000 a month, as the schools will be forced to hire non native speakers and the Thai parents will not be amused.

 

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

On 7/23/2018 at 5:27 PM, jenny2017 said:

It wasn't about 30 baht at all. It was about the Thai social security, also called Prakaan Sankuhm, and not about tax. 

You are right.

 

I I were earning 35k a month, I wouldn't have to pay any taxes due to my allowances, kids, mortgage, insurance etc.

Schools match that 700 baht as does the government. However,  I heard my friends talk about their schools not paying this triplicate amount, when they checked at the Social Security office about their pensions.

 

Take a trip to the SS(Bprakan Sangkom) and ask if your school is paying what they should by law. One other way these teachers steal money from foreign teachers!

 

 

[soleddy]

I worked at a "leading" uni (gvment) in BKK about 12 or 13 years ago.

 

The salary for farangs with degrees THEN started at 32,000 (less social and tax, small lumps). There was then a scale up to about 37,000 for old timers. Now, the basic is not much better...maybe 40,000--although beer and bread have doubled in 12 years.

 

The secret was to get 2-3 "international" courses every term. Your 32,000 then went to 80,000 or 100,000. Int. courses were paid by parents who wanted little Somkid to have most of his classes in Eng. Even for 12 or 15 NES teachers, there were enough courses to get 2 apiece BUT you had to prove your mettle for a time AND creep a bit to the (Thai) course leaders.

 

I quit in disgust when bunfights in bakeries were the order of the day. One Thai teacher was head of a very specialised subject (in which I had a BA) for many years, but perpetually kept all the top kids in "his class" AND made factual mistakes in the material he wrote.  In the end, there were so many bad bunfights that I resigned rather than teach more and more dodgy material.

 

As in all Thai universities and rajabhats, there existed the common sliding scale/STD curve system for final gradings. This meant that, in any given year, a percentage of SS must get A or B+ or 3.5 or 3.6 independent of their 'quality'. Farang were not invited to these grading meetings, but I have seen much juggling i.e. a girl from a good family being squeezed from C to B for obvious 'political' reasons. I retired years ago, although I am sure that this "quota" thing still runs gaily along.

[MrPatrickThai]

14 minutes ago, soleddy said:

I worked at a "leading" uni (gvment) in BKK about 12 or 13 years ago.

 

The salary for farangs with degrees THEN started at 32,000 (less social and tax, small lumps). There was then a scale up to about 37,000 for old timers. Now, the basic is not much better...maybe 40,000--although beer and bread have doubled in 12 years.

 

The secret was to get 2-3 "international" courses every term. Your 32,000 then went to 80,000 or 100,000. Int. courses were paid by parents who wanted little Somkid to have most of his classes in Eng. Even for 12 or 15 NES teachers, there were enough courses to get 2 apiece BUT you had to prove your mettle for a time AND creep a bit to the (Thai) course leaders.

 

I quit in disgust when bunfights in bakeries were the order of the day. One Thai teacher was head of a very specialised subject (in which I had a BA) for many years, but perpetually kept all the top kids in "his class" AND made factual mistakes in the material he wrote.  In the end, there were so many bad bunfights that I resigned rather than teach more and more dodgy material.

 

As in all Thai universities and rajabhats, there existed the common sliding scale/STD curve system for final gradings. This meant that, in any given year, a percentage of SS must get A or B+ or 3.5 or 3.6 independent of their 'quality'. Farang were not invited to these grading meetings, but I have seen much juggling i.e. a girl from a good family being squeezed from C to B for obvious 'political' reasons. I retired years ago, although I am sure that this "quota" thing still runs gaily along.

I worked at one of the top 2 universities 17-20 years ago, when the starting salary was 20k. However, I made 1200 baht an hour for extra classes. I also quit for similar reasons. The Thai education system has actually gotten worse and more corrupt since then. Mind you, what good is a degree here? I sent two of my kids abroad for uni.

 

 

[jenny2017]

On 7/23/2018 at 9:22 PM, DILLIGAD said:

Unfortunately, I can confirm about the motorbike part of above. Whoops!!! (Thanks for the visit jenny2017 & the singing tranny!)

Appreciated even though I was a bit spaced out!!!

 

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You were very lucky. I've seen two of my grade 12 students dying on Sisaket's roads, ten years ago. Something I won't forget. Did Tranny sing the "I'm driving in the rain, song?"

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

After working her for over 30 years, I know what Thais think about African, Arabs, Indian, Burmese, Cambodians, and trust me it is not good, in fact it is downright disgusting. I could name some Thai proverbs and saying but Thai language is not permitted and I would probably be accused of being racist, which I am not, having a Moroccan wife.

I know these proverbs, and you are right.

When I started teaching in the early 90's, a black man from England was hired with me. 20 branches of a big company refused to take him on. He got a job on radio.

Nowadays, Thais are hiring anyone, which is a shame for the kids. The qualified NES are getting double and treble what government schools are offering, by working online.

[DILLIGAD]

You were very lucky. I've seen two of my grade 12 students dying on Sisaket's roads, ten years ago. Something I won't forget. Did Tranny sing the "I'm driving in the rain, song?"

Luckily, I have no idea!


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[jenny2017]

On 6/27/2018 at 8:52 PM, TPI said:

Ten years ago I was teaching in a low class high school in Bkk, I was being paid 40K a month and was contracted for 3 years! At the end of my time I was offered 25K as that was all they were paying Philippians. Sorry about that...I moved on! 

Philippians? 

[jenny2017]

On 7/30/2018 at 4:23 PM, DILLIGAD said:

Luckily, I have no idea!


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At least you've got something! Better than nothing. 

[DILLIGAD]

At least you've got something! Better than nothing. 

Was a bit ‘spaced-out’ for 2 weeks but back to being just abnormal now!!!

No students were harmed in the making of this story!

 

 

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[jenny2017]

5 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

Was a bit ‘spaced-out’ for 2 weeks but back to being just as normal now!!!
No students were harmed in the making of this story!


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I'm afraid that all space cadet positions in Siket are already taken. ?

[LazySlipper]

In 2003 my head of English department who was friends with an MOE employee told me that foreign teachers are subsidized at 40.000 bht a month by the gvt. This implies that someone is seriously skimming off the top...

 

Moreover, agencies who advertise for gvt positions take a cut of teachers salaries and are willing to pay up to 35.000 bht in many cases....

 

As long as teachers don't know what the gvt is willing to pay the salaries will stay stagnant at 30.000 as they have been for the last 15 years.

[Andrew108]

I earned 35,000฿ a month back in 1998 working in a high school in BKK. I’m returning to teaching next year and won’t be accepting anything less than 45,000฿. If nothing comes up then I’ll teach in China. Also I’ll be teaching online. 

BUT.... wage stagnation is a fact in most countries these days and I know that it’s a big problem in the U.K. Also the cost of accommodation in BKK hasn’t really changed over the last 20 years.

I live a minimalistic lifestyle and don’t party. I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to save a fair amount of money in Thailand esp if I continue my online work. 

[My Thai Life]

This topic has gone way off the original question.

 

But regarding the salaries of foreign teachers in government schools, I don't agree that there has been wage stagnation.

 

Rather, my opinion is that foreign teachers were overpaid 10-20 years ago. And they still are when you compare their salaries to the Thai teacher pay scales. There may be exceptions of course, but in general this is true. 

 

I would also question how effective a foreign teacher who cannot speak Thai can be in many government schools where English speaking support is often not available.

 

One government school I know hires a new non-Thai speaking caucasian teacher every year. The teacher goes into a class of 50 students, hands out a piece of paper, and leaves. Doesn't even know the students' names.

[WonnabeBiker]

On 8/21/2018 at 2:01 PM, My Thai Life said:

This topic has gone way off the original question.

 

But regarding the salaries of foreign teachers in government schools, I don't agree that there has been wage stagnation.

 

Rather, my opinion is that foreign teachers were overpaid 10-20 years ago. And they still are when you compare their salaries to the Thai teacher pay scales. There may be exceptions of course, but in general this is true. 

 

I would also question how effective a foreign teacher who cannot speak Thai can be in many government schools where English speaking support is often not available.

 

One government school I know hires a new non-Thai speaking caucasian teacher every year. The teacher goes into a class of 50 students, hands out a piece of paper, and leaves. Doesn't even know the students' names.

Really? How long isa that teacher in the classroom? I'd like that job! :---)

 

These jobs at government schools aren't always easy:

 

* had motivated M2 students, mostly girls. Eager to learn, but they couldn't read English. No help from the school (I needed a Thai to assist me).

* have special needs' classes? The other day, an autistic boy had a mental meltdown. He SCREAMED like a man during torture. In the U.S., I would have called the ambulance. - Here, they left me alone with some 40 unruly kids.

 

Most schools can't even clarify what they want the foreigner to do.

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, WonnabeBiker said:

Really? How long isa that teacher in the classroom? I'd like that job! :---)

 

These jobs at government schools aren't always easy:

 

* had motivated M2 students, mostly girls. Eager to learn, but they couldn't read English. No help from the school (I needed a Thai to assist me).

* have special needs' classes? The other day, an autistic boy had a mental meltdown. He SCREAMED like a man during torture. In the U.S., I would have called the ambulance. - Here, they left me alone with some 40 unruly kids.

 

Most schools can't even clarify what they want the foreigner to do.

Hi, the students tell me that, as a worse case, the teacher just walks in, gives the lead student the sheets of paper to distribute, and walks out.

I think we're in agreement - there is little English speaking support in many government schools. And in many, maybe most schools it's impossible for the foreign teacher who doesn't speak Thai to be effective, even if the schools do give the clarification you refer to (I agree, they usually don't).

By the way, I really admire the good foreign teachers who do commit themselves to government schools. I am occasionally requested to teach in government schools, and I do know quite a few Thai teachers and heads in government schools, and I definitely wouldn't chose to do it myself!

Have a good day.

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew108]

Mostly when teaching large classes you want the students to have the English language in their mouths for as long as possible. So, lots and lots of drilling, role playing, gaming and so on. The key is to create an authentic context for the language - and you create that context right at the beginning of the lesson. No need to teach grammar etc. 

I know this has all gone off topic, but thought I’d chime in because NES teachers do have an important role to play and can be worth the money. 

[My Thai Life]

43 minutes ago, Andrew108 said:

Mostly when teaching large classes you want the students to have the English language in their mouths for as long as possible. So, lots and lots of drilling, role playing, gaming and so on. The key is to create an authentic context for the language - and you create that context right at the beginning of the lesson. No need to teach grammar etc. 

I don't necessarily disagree with you Andrew. I encourage and coach our teachers in this approach, but it should not form the core of their classroom time in my opinion as there are some other issues to consider:

 

> Thai school students are not tested for conversation skills, and it wouldn't be possible to implement national tests for conversation skills.

> Thai school students are of course tested for grammar via the ONET etc, and these tests are critical to their academic and employment future.

> most Thai school students do not get exposure to English outside of the classroom, so spending a lot of time on conversation in the classroom is not a good investment (no-one can become a conversationalist on 2 or 3 hours a week classroom time)

> foreign teachers who don't understand Thai would be at a severe disadvantage when teaching grammar.

 

I fully support your approach for adults though.

 

 

[Andrew108]

Well, drilling for example is practicing or consolidating the grammar the kids have been taught by their Thai teachers. I don’t think there is a school in Thailand that expects the NES teacher to focus on teaching grammar only.

The biggest difficulty NES teachers face is teaching to large mixed ability classes. The focus of the teaching has to be very precise. 

 

[My Thai Life]

Personally  I don't think of it in terms of NES or not. I think of it in terms of teachers who can speak Thai or not.

 

Teacher training courses in the west, including the big ones like CELTA, are designed for TESL The environment in Thailand is TEFL Few  teachers seem to understand the difference. And they're not prepared for it. They just mis-apply what they learned on their training courses blindly in many cases.

 

CELTA of course is designed for adults, not school children anyway, as are many of the other training courses.

 

This isn't to say that there aren't good foreign teachers in Thailand, there are. But look at the level of discussion about teaching on this forum or any other Thai based forum. You get the point!

[MrPatrickThai]

On 8/21/2018 at 2:01 PM, My Thai Life said:

Rather, my opinion is that foreign teachers were overpaid 10-20 years ago. And they still are when you compare their salaries to the Thai teacher pay scales. There may be exceptions of course, but in general this is true. 

You have no idea.

 

I've lived in Thailand for over 30 years and put 4 kids through schools and universities, some abroad.

If you think this can be done on 40k baht a month, you're insane.

If you're a single teacher, it's bearable but to say overpaid is ludicrous.

Try getting a mortgage and car payments. You won't even be able to get a credit card at most banks as you earn too little.

 

 

 

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, MrPatrickThai said:

You have no idea.

 

I've lived in Thailand for over 30 years and put 4 kids through schools and universities, some abroad.

If you think this can be done on 40k baht a month, you're insane.

If you're a single teacher, it's bearable but to say overpaid is ludicrous.

Try getting a mortgage and car payments. You won't even be able to get a credit card at most banks as you earn too little.

 

You seem to be arguing that farang teachers should be paid more because Thai society should give them a mortgage, a car loan, and a credit card. Weird logic.

 

I know the scenario intimately in Thai government schools from my colleagues in the MoE, my Thai teacher friends, and my Thai head teacher friends

 

My point isn't what farang teachers can afford to do.

 

My point is that farang teachers are paid more than their qualifications warrant on  the government school pay scale. Moreover most farang teachers are not qualified teachers. Added to that, as other posters have said, farang teachers just "teach" conversation. Try having a conversation with a Thai teenager, and see how far that program has failed. High time to put an end to the program.

 

Thai students matriculate into uni on grammar tests, not conversation tests. As many posters have said here, farangs don't teach grammar. Most farangs can't teach Thai students grammar anyway because they can't speak Thai.

 

Farang teachers in government schools are usually under-qualified, over-paid, ineffective, unnecessary, and not infrequently illegal. Have a good evening.

 

[Andrew108]

This is all very negative and demoralizing. Certainly there are NES teachers who are commmited and make a difference. Also I think you are misunderstanding how teaching grammar works. The method you are referencing (Grammar translation) is quite archaic and is the method most Thai teachers will use. Other more communicative approaches (hopefully used by trained NES teachers) teach grammar indirectly.

I definitely agree that many foreign teachers are just going through the motions and what is often underplayed is the effect of culture shock. A lot of teachers I’ve talked to in the past felt somewhat dislocated and undervalued. This caused their motivation to tank. Successful English programs employing NES teachers have to think about how to motivate and support their staff. 

NES teachers can be really valuable but they are kind of delicate and need the right circumstances to flourish.  Certainly for me when I return to teaching next year, if I can’t find the right circumstances in Thailand I’ll look elsewhere. 

 

 

[Neeranam]

10 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Most farangs can't teach Thai students grammar anyway because they can't speak Thai.

 

I speak fluent Thai but wouldn't dream of using it to teach grammar.

[My Thai Life]

 

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I speak fluent Thai but wouldn't dream of using it to teach grammar.

Yes, you are a most welcome exception Neeranam.

 

The use of the mother tongue in EFL classrooms has undergone substantial and, in my opinion, enlightened revision since the bad old days of "banning" it.

 

Nevertheless, trying to use the mother tongue (Thai) to explain a grammar term in the target language (English), when that particular grammar item does not exist in the mother tongue, is doomed to failure!

 

have  a good day.

 

 

 

 

[DILLIGAD]

Clearly the method of teaching English has not worked well in the past. That’s why this country’s record of proficiency is so low within ASEAN. Students are now improving, mind.
Too much grandma and not enough of ‘speeky de Language’ IMO.


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[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Nevertheless, trying to use the mother tongue (Thai) to explain a grammar term in the target language (English), when that particular grammar item does not exist in the mother tongue, is doomed to failure!

 

There are exceptions to every rule, I guess.

Speaking Thai does help to identify why learners have certain grammatical problems in some areas.

Understanding why Thai learners say, "I ever..." for example.

But they don't mix up "for" and "since" like Germans do.

Speaking the students' mother tongue is obviously advantageous.

 

One Thai student asked me why a foreign language teacher couldn't speak Thai, despite being married to a Thai, and living in Thailand for 10 years. 

 

[DILLIGAD]

There are exceptions to every rule, I guess.
Speaking Thai does help to identify why learners have certain grammatical problems in some areas.
Understanding why Thai learners say, "I ever..." for example.
But they don't mix up "for" and "since" like Germans do.
Speaking the students' mother tongue is obviously advantageous.
 
One Thai student asked me why a foreign language teacher couldn't speak Thai, despite being married to a Thai, and living in Thailand for 10 years. 
 

My answer to that is usually
Speaking 2 languages makes you bi-lingual.
Speaking 3 languages makes you tri-lingual.
Speaking 1 language makes you English.


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[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

My answer to that is usually
Speaking 2 languages makes you bi-lingual.
Speaking 3 languages makes you tri-lingual.
Speaking 1 language makes you English.


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 I'd change that to American. 

[My Thai Life]

To those English-as-a-first-language-speakers who still maintain that Thai shouldn't be used in the classroom, I have two questions:

 

1. have you ever learnt a second language (3rd, etc)?

2. did do you do that without using English?

 

It's cognitively impossible of course.