Concerns About Christian Missionaries

[younghusband]

Many of us are ignorant or misinformed about many things. It is hardly just Thai politicians who bribe people to get their allegiance. Yes, many religions, missionaries, etc., have been terrible; the same goes for nations, other religions, atheists, etc. And as GuestHouse points out, many true acts of charity have been performed, by good people of all backgrounds.

Missionary work suffers from a terrible reputation, most of it deserved because of its history. Many missionary groups now, however, are far less likely to impose their culture, or to force their values, upon new converts. I belong to a denomination that does very little 'mission' work such as strong evangelism and proselytizing, but it does lots of aid and development work, disaster relief, and peace-making work.

It's wrong to bribe children with expensive trips. Each of us might get to know our local missionaries by name, talk with them, find out what they do. I was taught at a Baptist college that Jesuits were the worst, and found that to be absolutely wrong. At a recent mass, the missionary priest mentioned a modern Christian martyr: Tom Fox, an American Quaker with the Christian Peacemakers Team, who was killed in Iraq a year ago.

Tom Fox's sad death should not obscure the irresponsibility of the Christian Peacemakers Team.One of Fox's colleagues was the British Norman Kember who was rescued with other hostages in a daring joint operation of US/British special services.Not a word of gratitude was expressed by Kember for his recue by the military until his return to the UK when the hostile reaction compelled him to make a rather grudging statement of thanks.This Christian group had been warned by their governments not to go to Iraq, because not only was it dangerous but they would put others lives in danger.They ignored this advice, and Tom Fox was tragically killed.The British and US armed forces risked their own lives to stage the rescue, too late sadly for Fox.I don't admire or respect these people, although they were probably sincere in their beliefs.

Edited February 2, 2007 by younghusband

[t.s]

Let me give you a quote from the Dalai Lama "Religion Makes Good People".

In the haste to attack Christians missionaries in Thailand, let us not forget the absolutely first rate work Christian Missions have done in Thailand with Orphanages, Street Kids, The Victims of the Sex Industry, People Suffering from HIV/AIDS and their work with Ethnic Minorities and the Stateless people of Thailand. The Christian Missions also provide some of the best schools in Thailand.

Let us also remember that Thailand has no official religion and that the Thai Constitution protects freedom of worship.

while i am usually in agreement or at least respect your well considred contributions to tv, i feel you are off the mark here -- not in defending truly benevolent missionionary works, but for, in your desire to portray a moderate stance ignoring the fact that the organisation the op is talking about are providing pay for pray.

granted that others are getting off topic and voicing their frustration with missionaries who proselytize in public places, but irritating as this can be i see no real harm in that.

it is the notion of missionairies exploiting a weakness and potentially undermining communities in the name of their god that offends me.

[jbowman1993]

Live and let live, I always say. But if I Bible beater comes close to me, I reserve the right to kick his ##### ass

Not really

Maybe......

Ok, yes, I definitely would................no I wouldn't

Edited February 2, 2007 by jbowman1993

[GuestHouse]

it is the notion of missionairies exploiting a weakness and potentially undermining communities in the name of their god that offends me.

I think it is fair to say there are other threats posed by outsiders taking advantages of weaknesses.

[dukkha]

When I lived in Chiengmai there was a 22 year old German girl who was doing some teaching and attending Christian camps. I asked her what was her purpose in teaching Thai Buddhists the Christian way of life. Her reply ' Well I have come to help them find the way to Heaven as they do not know it' I was much offended by this response. The evangelical nature of these missionaries disturbs me. And she was not an isolated case. Chiengmai in particular has many Christian Crosses dotted around the countryside. IMHO organised religion is another form of Terrorism...past history and to the present day does not show a particularly good track record in terms of Chrisitan missionaries who see it as their call to bring 'God' into the lives of peoples who have already been practicising their own form of worship such as Buddhism etc...It is the imposition of Christianity on a Buddhist country such as Thailand that I find offensive...and some of their methods leave a lot to be desired...I prefer to be seen as a Humanist...The God who can be named is not the true God...Lao Tsu.. Dukkha

[t.s]

it is the notion of missionairies exploiting a weakness and potentially undermining communities in the name of their god that offends me.

I think it is fair to say there are other threats posed by outsiders taking advantages of weaknesses.

it is fair to say it, certainly, but how do those other theats relate to the topic?

Edited February 2, 2007 by t.s

[gummy]

Let me give you a quote from the Dalai Lama "Religion Makes Good People".

In the haste to attack Christians missionaries in Thailand, let us not forget the absolutely first rate work Christian Missions have done in Thailand with Orphanages, Street Kids, The Victims of the Sex Industry, People Suffering from HIV/AIDS and their work with Ethnic Minorities and the Stateless people of Thailand. The Christian Missions also provide some of the best schools in Thailand.

Let us also remember that Thailand has no official religion and that the Thai Constitution protects freedom of worship.

It gets me to admit it , but I often find that Guesthouse usually comes over belonging to the pompous and pious element here but this time even I have to agree with him 100%. Well apart that is from his comments on the constitution which he should know Thailand does not currently have as it was rescinded on 15th Sept last year by the military junta. The Christian missionaries deserve far more than the praise they receive. They are here to help people and if then they attract those into their own faith, all the better, but that is not their main aim. That is to help people, God bless them.

The bribery type of missionary almost always come from the US, it is the "Give us 10%" type of religion driven by materialistic ambitons and supported by materialistic people, Tom Cruise being an excellant example. In my mind they have far less love for people than money.

I have just spoken to my relatives in Bang Rakam, Phitsanulok. Obviously most are Buddhists but 2 have married Catholics and none of them have heard of the "bribing missionaries" so lets hope it was an isolated case and that they will move on, or perferably back to the hole they crawled out of, when they don't meet their recruitment targets.

One only has to consider that these types of religions only grew up in America as that is where these bigoted crowd of mis-fits sailed to when they couldn't succeed in brain washing the masses in Europe during the 17th and 18th centuries

[lannarebirth]

My girlfriend is Buddhist. Back in the 70's missionaries ran one of the better schools in Ayuttayah where she lived. She participated in their activities and was even baptised. She attended their school, which put her on a great scholastic track of university in Bangkok and scholarship to Sorbonne. Until I took her to see "The Passion Of The Christ", and explained it's meaning, she really had no idea what the basis for Christianity is. She's still a devout Buddhist who finds much to admire in the kindness of some Christians, even if what they bekieve seems unbelievable to her.

Edited February 2, 2007 by lannarebirth

[Dakhar]

As former missionary....

Speaking from my mindset, it was a period of turmoil for me. I loved it, hated it, and loved it even more. It was a 2 yr span. So that might give you enough info. on to which faith I represented.

I can tell you that even during that time, I had doubts about religion, pretty much all religion. But I do feel stongly that there is bad... evil if you will.

So if there is evil, I think it is safe to presume their is good. Yin and Yang kinda of thing. I'd say I am a hodge podge of Christianity and Bhudism.

Any how, I do agree that you should not bribe folks.

But I also feel there is no harm in multi cultural exposure. Lord know Pres. Bush needs more of it. You don't want folks to go around with blinders on.... the end result can be very hazardous.

[phibunmike]

Let us also remember that Thailand has no official religion and that the Thai Constitution protects freedom of worship.

I usually agree with you GH, but I think that "freedom of worship" is being subverted by the missionaries. They are tricking the poor and uneducated into accepting a Christian brand of indoctrination.

I have just spoken to my relatives in Bang Rakam, Phitsanulok. Obviously most are Buddhists but 2 have married Catholics and none of them have heard of the "bribing missionaries" so lets hope it was an isolated case and that they will move on, or perferably back to the hole they crawled out of, when they don't meet their recruitment targets.

I think you will find that many missionaries use "bribery"; even if not to the extent of handing out duvets and holidays, at least they insist on teaching Christianity to those who wish to attend the "free" school. The same tactic is now used by timeshare salesmen, and very effectively.

[a2396]

I don't like their tactics in Thailand or in any country, which is often to coerce, intimidate and control people's free thought. It's their way or the highway, so to speak. These groups often do not represent "mainstream" Christianity, if there is such a thing. Fortunately, they have not made major inroads in Thai society. We don't need a Christian version of the Taliban, which would be the end result, if they were to dominate social values.

[gummy]

I don't like their tactics in Thailand or in any country, which is often to coerce, intimidate and control people's free thought. It's their way or the highway, so to speak. These groups often do not represent "mainstream" Christianity, if there is such a thing. Fortunately, they have not made major inroads in Thai society. We don't need a Christian version of the Taliban, which would be the end result, if they were to dominate social values.

The world already has it, it is called GW Bush and American policy. If you don't agree with what I tell you you must be against us so my troops ruotinely killing so many innocent adults and children in Afganistan and Iraq is your own fault - hel_l hath no fury like a President ( or his Father ) scorned. A bunch of hypocrites the whole ###### bunch of them including those so called missionries with monetary performance targets here or anywhere else.

[grtaylor]

What has always amazed me is the ability of the Thai people to resist, politely. The first Catholic missionaries came here in the 1580s, and the first Protestants around the 1820s. How many thousands of Thai people have been educated at their schools, and treated at their hospitals, without giving in to them? Over four hundred years of Christian presence here, and only 2% of the population is Christian.

It says a lot for the Thais, and the strength of their religion, that they have largely resisted the advances of not only Christian but also Islamic missionaries through the centuries.

G

[toptuan]

What has always amazed me is the ability of the Thai people to resist, politely. The first Catholic missionaries came here in the 1580s, and the first Protestants around the 1820s. How many thousands of Thai people have been educated at their schools, and treated at their hospitals, without giving in to them? Over four hundred years of Christian presence here, and only 2% of the population is Christian.

It says a lot for the Thais, and the strength of their religion, that they have largely resisted the advances of not only Christian but also Islamic missionaries through the centuries.

G

.

...and I believe your statement is a good argument to the credit of Christians here: no one has been forced to convert to Christianity in Thailand. So why "the sky is falling" panic on this thread? Although the OP has shown polite and tolerant restraint, others have been quick to jump on the bandwagon to spew their anti-religious dogma. Just about as intolerant as those they accuse of the same mentality.

Edited February 2, 2007 by toptuan

[GuestHouse]

Here's an observation.

We have people who claim not to be religious, or not to belong to an organized religion who are objecting to the Christian missionaries converting, or attempting to convert, Buddhists.

This strikes me as a little odd.

If you are not religious and able to live your life without religion, why would it matter if others have/have not/or change their religion. Religion would seem to have no value to you yourself, then the religion of others should not matter.

This seems to me to deny to others the very choices you yourself have made.

Is religion something you don't want for yourself but insist on for others provided you get to choose what their what their religion should be?

[toptuan]

On a flight from BKK to Phnomn Penh, on Bangkok Airways, I and about 80 other passengers were subjected to a long, boring, but very evangelistic Buddhist video where a monk "talking head," in English, was trying to overtly convert the whole planeload of passengers to Buddhism.

It brings up two questions:

1) What about a captive audience? Since BKK Airways doesn't issue parachutes to passengers, I didn't have the freedom (guts?) to get up and walk out the door.

2) Any essential difference between the purpose of the Buddhist film and the Christian missionary in your village, other than to proselytize?

My take on it: If any religion is worth its salt, it's worth sharing. Is that too much to stomach?

Edited February 2, 2007 by toptuan

[fruittbatt]

There are some christians in Thailand who I admire: those who do not so much proselytise, but do active social work ...eg Father Joe Maier. Peace Blondie has made the distinction between "Bible bashers" and social activists with religious affiliations very clear.

Historically, however, the churches have been in the service of imperialism and (neo American)colonialism, and it is this arrogant presumption of the superiority of the Judeo Christian tradition that I find utterly distasteful.

I was approached by some enthusiastic pimply christian american kids two weeks ago at Tha Pae market in Chiang Mai. They announced their mission cheerfully and loudly as if they were the elect of God already, and needed to remind us heathen expats of the not-so "good news". When they said "we are missionaries' I told them I was mighty sorry to hear that, since this is a Buddhist country. They reacted as if they had been slapped, but at least they stopped singing out of tune...briefly.

[sceadugenga]

Allow me to cheerfully upset and offend all who wish to listen. What the missionaries are creating here is what the Jesuits called rice Christians, as long as the rice kept coming they went to church.

The failure of Christianity in Asia is never more glaringly obvious than in the Philippines, in the poorest cities there are spectacular churches of every denomination, American neo-Christians preach and dance on the streets of Angeles City nightly. Their message is plain, give up prostitution and go to heaven. No alternative source of income seems to be suggested. I knew a girl who was single handedly keeping a family of more than a dozen while a fundamentalist church cheerfully took 10% of her barfines and drinks money.

Up here (far Northern Thailand) the missionaries are remarkably successful amongst the hills tribes, they bribe the village chief to convert and he orders all the rest to follow suit. No mention seems to be made of the girls married off and pregnant at 12, no point in rocking the boat too much.

[toptuan]

Historically, however, the churches have been in the service of imperialism and (neo American)colonialism, and it is this arrogant presumption of the superiority of the Judeo Christian tradition that I find utterly distasteful.

Your Judeo-Christian bias is showing through quite glaringly. Are you unaware of the heavy service Buddhism paid to the Thai/Burmese/Lao conflicts over the last three centuries here in Asia? Religion was used just as much as a club in these instances, as any Christian crusade in the Holy Land ever was.

I'm just asking you to be a little more objective in your historical perspectives.

[gummy]

There are some christians in Thailand who I admire: those who do not so much proselytise, but do active social work ...eg Father Joe Maier. Peace Blondie has made the distinction between "Bible bashers" and social activists with religious affiliations very clear.

Historically, however, the churches have been in the service of imperialism and (neo American)colonialism, and it is this arrogant presumption of the superiority of the Judeo Christian tradition that I find utterly distasteful.

I was approached by some enthusiastic pimply christian american kids two weeks ago at Tha Pae market in Chiang Mai. They announced their mission cheerfully and loudly as if they were the elect of God already, and needed to remind us heathen expats of the not-so "good news". When they said "we are missionaries' I told them I was mighty sorry to hear that, since this is a Buddhist country. They reacted as if they had been slapped, but at least they stopped singing out of tune...briefly.

US is the most insular country in the world as 73% of them do not have passports and hence travel no-where. However those that do have been brought up in the most brain-washed society on earth and honestly beieve they could do good deeds elswhere, as per these pimply kids in Tha Pae market. They honestly believed they thought they were doing good.

So did Stalin, so did Hitler and so did Pol Pot and more recently George W.

[toptuan]

Schematic of above poster's reasoning process:

pimply american kids in CM = mass murderers

Puleeze!

By the way, what percentage of Thais also do not have passports, would you think? Now, apply your iron-clad reasoning process there, as well...

This guy never passed Debate 101.

Edited February 2, 2007 by toptuan

[dog412]

I am sorry Guesthouse but it is not my intention to criticise all missionary work (although I do wonder why people who want to help others need to advertise their beliefs). My concern is with the methods used to recruit new followers by a certain a Christian group the village where I live.

I think that everyone who visits Thailand is aware of their tolerance for people of all religions and that all religions are protected here. I suspect that this tolerance is due to Thailand being a 95% Buddhist country.

the u.s. has religious adherents representing all religious denominations and i doubt it is based on 95% buddhist beliefs. by the way, buddhism in thailand is not free.

[GuestHouse]

Their message is plain, give up prostitution and go to heaven

Perhaps now I am beginning to understand the objections.

[dog412]

There are some christians in Thailand who I admire: those who do not so much proselytise, but do active social work ...eg Father Joe Maier. Peace Blondie has made the distinction between "Bible bashers" and social activists with religious affiliations very clear.

Historically, however, the churches have been in the service of imperialism and (neo American)colonialism, and it is this arrogant presumption of the superiority of the Judeo Christian tradition that I find utterly distasteful.

I was approached by some enthusiastic pimply christian american kids two weeks ago at Tha Pae market in Chiang Mai. They announced their mission cheerfully and loudly as if they were the elect of God already, and needed to remind us heathen expats of the not-so "good news". When they said "we are missionaries' I told them I was mighty sorry to hear that, since this is a Buddhist country. They reacted as if they had been slapped, but at least they stopped singing out of tune...briefly.

US is the most insular country in the world as 73% of them do not have passports and hence travel no-where. However those that do have been brought up in the most brain-washed society on earth and honestly beieve they could do good deeds elswhere, as per these pimply kids in Tha Pae market. They honestly believed they thought they were doing good.

So did Stalin, so did Hitler and so did Pol Pot and more recently George W.

the u.s. is THE most diverse nation on the planet, representing every race and ethnicity in this world. it is also a democracy, ensuring each of these entities has a chance to participate in the process. insular?

[PeaceBlondie]

Tom Fox's sad death should not obscure the irresponsibility of the Christian Peacemakers Team.One of Fox's colleagues was the British Norman Kember who was rescued with other hostages in a daring joint operation of US/British special services.Not a word of gratitude was expressed by Kember for his recue by the military until his return to the UK when the hostile reaction compelled him to make a rather grudging statement of thanks.This Christian group had been warned by their governments not to go to Iraq, because not only was it dangerous but they would put others lives in danger.They ignored this advice, and Tom Fox was tragically killed.The British and US armed forces risked their own lives to stage the rescue, too late sadly for Fox.I don't admire or respect these people, although they were probably sincere in their beliefs.

Dear Sir, I regret that you have been misinformed, perhaps by a high ranking officer of the fine UK troops who liberated the captives. At this URL you will find, at the bottom, the first two communiques issued by the surprised team in Baghdad when the captives were rescued by the UK troops, as well as testimonies thanking the soldiers who cut off their handcuffs. In the confusion of the first few hours, they neglected to mention specifically the troops, and they amended their error by 9 pm. http://www.cpt.org/iraq/response/freed.htm

Bringing the topic back on point: there are many Christian workers around the world, sincere and well-intentioned, who non-violently risk their lives to help foreigners who request their assistance, whether it be in development aid, disaster relief, conflict resolution, peace-making in conflict zones, etc. Even among missionary societies, many of the staff show proper respect for the groups where they work. Nothing is one-sided about it.

[endure]

Tom Fox's sad death should not obscure the irresponsibility of the Christian Peacemakers Team.One of Fox's colleagues was the British Norman Kember who was rescued with other hostages in a daring joint operation of US/British special services.Not a word of gratitude was expressed by Kember for his recue by the military until his return to the UK when the hostile reaction compelled him to make a rather grudging statement of thanks.This Christian group had been warned by their governments not to go to Iraq, because not only was it dangerous but they would put others lives in danger.They ignored this advice, and Tom Fox was tragically killed.The British and US armed forces risked their own lives to stage the rescue, too late sadly for Fox.I don't admire or respect these people, although they were probably sincere in their beliefs.

Dear Sir, I regret that you have been misinformed, perhaps by a high ranking officer of the fine UK troops who liberated the captives. At this URL you will find, at the bottom, the first two communiques issued by the surprised team in Baghdad when the captives were rescued by the UK troops, as well as testimonies thanking the soldiers who cut off their handcuffs. In the confusion of the first few hours, they neglected to mention specifically the troops, and they amended their error by 9 pm. http://www.cpt.org/iraq/response/freed.htm

I'm afraid not, PB. His gratitude was late and grudging.

[altman]

throw them to the lions

[garro]

My reason for raising this issue was purely my concern about the methods used by missionaries in the village where I live; which I view as much more serious than watching a film on a plane from Laos.

Whether missionaries have done good in the past is not really an issue. Again I ask if they wanted to help people why advertise their belief system. I worked as a nurse for many years, and although I did get paid for this work, I genuinely entered the profession with the view of helping people; not to advertise my belief system.

There has also been the accusation that this issue only upsets non-belivers who like to party. I am a Buddhist who seriously tries to follow his belief system but I never try and force my views on anybody else. I don't drink alcohol or spend time in brothels.

[gummy]

There are some christians in Thailand who I admire: those who do not so much proselytise, but do active social work ...eg Father Joe Maier. Peace Blondie has made the distinction between "Bible bashers" and social activists with religious affiliations very clear.

Historically, however, the churches have been in the service of imperialism and (neo American)colonialism, and it is this arrogant presumption of the superiority of the Judeo Christian tradition that I find utterly distasteful.

I was approached by some enthusiastic pimply christian american kids two weeks ago at Tha Pae market in Chiang Mai. They announced their mission cheerfully and loudly as if they were the elect of God already, and needed to remind us heathen expats of the not-so "good news". When they said "we are missionaries' I told them I was mighty sorry to hear that, since this is a Buddhist country. They reacted as if they had been slapped, but at least they stopped singing out of tune...briefly.

US is the most insular country in the world as 73% of them do not have passports and hence travel no-where. However those that do have been brought up in the most brain-washed society on earth and honestly beieve they could do good deeds elswhere, as per these pimply kids in Tha Pae market. They honestly believed they thought they were doing good.

So did Stalin, so did Hitler and so did Pol Pot and more recently George W.

the u.s. is THE most diverse nation on the planet, representing every race and ethnicity in this world. it is also a democracy, ensuring each of these entities has a chance to participate in the process. insular?

Which proves my point that it is also the most brainwashed. Lets see now, which was the first and only country on this planet to use WMD in the form of the nuclear bomb to destroy the lives of several hundred thousand buddhists in Japan ? Not content with that it also carpet bombed Vietnamese civilians with another US devised weapon, Napalm, the fact that it was justified on the grounds of communist insurgency did not hide the fact that yet again US destroyed the lives of thousands of buddhist civilians.

Now they have turned away from that and are systemmatically destroying the lives of countless 10's of thousands of Moslims in Iraq.

US must be the sickest most hypocritical nation on earth able to get away with such inhuman activities owing to their wealth and current economical leverage. Is it little wonder therefore people in Thailand are more a than a little concerned about the morality of US missionaries bribing people when historically the US has shown scant regard for the lives of those of other religions elsewhere in the world?

[davidjtayler]

I get the feeling that most people on this thread are not against the good work that missionaries often do whithin a community in foreign countries but rather the methods this particular group are using to secure their 'parish'.

As has been quoted in previous threads there is more than a hint of not so subtle bribery being displayed and offering charity at a price is definately not considered charity (charity being unconditional as has also been posted).

As for the argument highlighting the irony of agnostics or aethietics condeming religious practises well that's not really the case issue here as they are not condeming the actual preaching itself but rather the practise of the preaching which does appear more than a little corrupt.

I, as a pedestrian, are more than entitled to object to a tuk tuk offering a stranger a 10Baht ride which will probably result in that stranger being scammed at a fake 'gem' store or a false TAT office even though my only mode of tranpsort is by foot and I never take tuk tuks.

That's just basic compassion for my fellow man (or woman).