Survival boxes to be dropped in Tham Luang cave waterways

[Artisi]

6 minutes ago, thenoilif said:

A very typical farang post. Thinking that you know everything and the locals know nothing.

Let me educate you a little. There are numerous cave exploring accidents, mostly due to people falling or drowning (cave diving) that happen every year all around the world, including the US. For example, a guy just recently died in Mammoth Cave in America because he attempted to go on a tour that he wasn't physically fit to handle. I could bash the say something to the effect of why are so many westerners so obese and unaware of their physical fitness but I'm not one for stereotyping. 

 

There are also all sorts of other eco-sports like rock climbing, mountain climbing, scuba diving, mountain biking, and hiking that have known dangers but people still do them anyways. You know how many bodies are up on Everest? You know why they're still there? Given your expertise, maybe you should come up with a plan that no other person has been able to devise and get them off the mountain. Nature is a dangerous and often unforgiving place and some of it is also unregulated and fortunately, not destroyed by too much nanny hand-holding regulations. 

 

This actually reminds more of what we see with coal mining accidents and typically, there is very little that can be done with those as well and often times progress is extremely slow. 

 

Reality is, this group made a choice to enter a cave, one that they had been in a few times before, ignore a warning sign, and are now in grave danger. The coach made a bad judgment call, simple as that. Try not to turn everything into a racial superiority contest.

 

 

 

 

One small point, they didn't ignore any warning sign, the warning sign is incorrect in its information.

Further, the sign should actually be based on  current weather conditions and updated daily especially at this time of year, certainly not a dangerous arbitrary fixed date -

as has now been demonstrated. 

 

But will anything change, probably  not. 

[Artisi]

37 minutes ago, Julie H said:

The water at the entrance is muddy, they water in deeper sections of the cave is actually very clean and clear, recent pics of divers shows this 

Well hop on your bike, get up there and show them how to do it, I'm sure they will welcome your considered advice. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Artisi

[Julie H]

6 minutes ago, Artisi said:

One small point, they didn't ignore any warning sign, the warning sign is incorrect in its information.

Further, the sign should actually be based on  current weather conditions and updated daily especially at this time of year, certainly not a dangerous arbitrary fixed date -

as has now been demonstrated. 

 

But will anything change, probably  not. 

You are unable to see or understand anything outside of your own view. Your love for signs, safety laws and inability to think for yourself makes very obvious that you are an Australian

[thenoilif]

10 minutes ago, Artisi said:

One small point, they didn't ignore any warning sign, the warning sign is incorrect in its information.

Further, the sign should actually be based on  current weather conditions and updated daily especially at this time of year, certainly not a dangerous arbitrary fixed date -

as has now been demonstrated. 

 

But will anything change, probably  not. 

3

Been rocking climbing and cave diving in the past and several locations around the world and there are typically no signs that provide this sort of up to date information onsite. 

 

America has possibly the most restrictive protocols when it comes to popular eco-sports places but there are so many that aren't regulated. 

 

This is way up in Chiang Rai. I don't know if you've ever been there but once you get out away from the city, you're more or less able to do what you want. Actually, you're mostly able to do what you want in regards to your own personal safety in the city. Not a bad thing. 

[Artisi]

13 minutes ago, thenoilif said:

Been rocking climbing and cave diving in the past and several locations around the world and there are typically no signs that provide this sort of up to date information onsite. 

 

America has possibly the most restrictive protocols when it comes to popular eco-sports places but there are so many that aren't regulated. 

 

This is way up in Chiang Rai. I don't know if you've ever been there but once you get out away from the city, you're more or less able to do what you want. Actually, you're mostly able to do what you want in regards to your own personal safety in the city. Not a bad thing. 

That may well be true, but there was official signage that was misleading resulting in the current situation. 

No sign, maybe the coach may have well considered the implications of entering the cave, and then maybe he wouldn't - but that's irrelevant, as he probably trusted the sign. 

 

[thenoilif]

6 minutes ago, Artisi said:

That may well be true, but there was official signage that was misleading resulting in the current situation. 

No sign, maybe the coach may have well considered the implications of entering the cave, and then maybe he wouldn't - but that's irrelevant, as he probably trusted the sign. 

 

Proves the point that nature is unpredictable.

[simoh1490]

7 minutes ago, Artisi said:

That may well be true, but there was official signage that was misleading resulting in the current situation. 

No sign, maybe the coach may have well considered the implications of entering the cave, and then maybe he wouldn't - but that's irrelevant, as he probably trusted the sign. 

 

Only an incompetent would look at a sign that reads "July", think to himself that's it's only June and ignore local weather completely. I hope everyone survives unharmed and recovers well, I also hope their leader is banned from ever being put in charge of anyone ever again.

[Artisi]

36 minutes ago, Julie H said:

You are unable to see or understand anything outside of your own view. Your love for signs, safety laws and inability to think for yourself makes very obvious that you are an Australian

Well you are correct re Australian, as for the rest of your misinformed rant- not even worth a comment. 

[Artisi]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Only an incompetent would look at a sign that reads "July", think to himself that's it's only June and ignore local weather completely. I hope everyone survives unharmed and recovers well, I also hope their leader is banned from ever being put in charge of anyone ever again.

So you are fully aware of what the weather conditions were, possibly at a great distance from the cave, or are you clairvoyant as well. 

 

[Julie H]

59 minutes ago, Artisi said:

6 hours ago, CGW said:

Well done, now we just have to hope that they are able to get these packages to them, considering they still don't know where they are its a very long shot!

They could use a non toxic fluorescent dye in the water as a signal of hope for the boys. Any sign of help would be a huge morale boost. Such a dye would travel at the speed of the water

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Julie H

[simoh1490]

33 minutes ago, Artisi said:

So you are fully aware of what the weather conditions were, possibly at a great distance from the cave, or are you clairvoyant as well. 

 

This is the rainy season in the North, EVERYONE who lives here knows that and they also know that it started raining MANY weeks ago - even rudimentary knowledge of physics confirms that water finds it's own level, when it falls on high ground it takes time to permeate through rock strata hence the risk is well understood, albeit ignored..

[retsdon]

Everything about this whole horrible business epitomizes what's wrong with the country, From an unqualified football coach simply assuming that he has the authority to take other people's children  underground on a whim, to the lack of proper warnings against flash flooding, to the delay in getting properly competent people involved, to the asinine 'rescue' packages' that apparently have mobile phones in them but no lighting, to the media circus and every local sen yai getting themselves in front of a screen with yet another harebrained initiative....

 

I have kids here, and sometimes I absolutely despair,,,,

[CGW]

1 hour ago, Julie H said:

They could use a non toxic fluorescent dye in the water as a signal of hope for the boys. Any sign of help would be a huge morale boost. Such a dye would travel at the speed of the water

I'm glad my life is not reallying on TVF "experts" 

Priority one is to reduce the water level, which means pumping the water out, what direction would the dye travel?

The "packages" are just going to stick to the roof of the cave if it is full as stated, if you pump water out of the cave what direction is the flow of the water going to be?

[anon537687643]

Sounds pretty desperate to just drop food boxes and hope!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[canuckamuck]

Those boxes need to be weighted so that they are nearly neutrally buoyant. Sort of almost sinking. That way they will not get hung up on cave roofs but just bump along just at the surface following the waterway. 

[AntDee]

3 hours ago, thenoilif said:

A very typical farang post. Thinking that you know everything and the locals know nothing.

Let me educate you a little. There are numerous cave exploring accidents, mostly due to people falling or drowning (cave diving) that happen every year all around the world, including the US. For example, a guy just recently died in Mammoth Cave in America because he attempted to go on a tour that he wasn't physically fit to handle. I could bash the say something to the effect of why are so many westerners so obese and unaware of their physical fitness but I'm not one for stereotyping. 

 

There are also all sorts of other eco-sports like rock climbing, mountain climbing, scuba diving, mountain biking, and hiking that have known dangers but people still do them anyways. You know how many bodies are up on Everest? You know why they're still there? Given your expertise, maybe you should come up with a plan that no other person has been able to devise and get them off the mountain. Nature is a dangerous and often unforgiving place and some of it is also unregulated and fortunately, not destroyed by too much nanny hand-holding regulations. 

 

This actually reminds more of what we see with coal mining accidents and typically, there is very little that can be done with those as well and often times progress is extremely slow. 

 

Reality is, this group made a choice to enter a cave, one that they had been in a few times before, ignore a warning sign, and are now in grave danger. The coach made a bad judgment call, simple as that. Try not to turn everything into a racial superiority contest.

 

 

 

 

I can't agree. Anecdotes that a thing has happened elsewhere should not discourage constructive discussion. And, I'm sure any sane human adult would instinctively know that a thing, most any things, happen in every country. 

 

But, as human adults with big brains, our first nor most prominent thought is not "oh, I have read that people get bitten by snakes in many countries all over the world, so I will walk right through the middle of those snakes over there and hope for the best". 

 

Thailand is a circus. Most of us know this. Some of us don't think it's polite to call attention to it as we are guests. But, the worst thing we could do is pretend (like most locals do) that they are up to "inTERnational saTandarrd". Call things what they are. 

[CGW]

21 minutes ago, Julie H said:

You think the pumps are reversing the natural flow of the water? Please stop you are embarrassing yourself

You need to think about that, if you take more out than what you put in what happens to the 'natural" flow?

[Artisi]

3 minutes ago, Julie H said:

Umm reports are that the water level has been increasing. It is you needs to think

Well in that case you need to pump at a higher rate, but guess that takes some thinking about. 

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, retsdon said:

Everything about this whole horrible business epitomizes what's wrong with the country, From an unqualified football coach simply assuming that he has the authority to take other people's children  underground on a whim, to the lack of proper warnings against flash flooding, to the delay in getting properly competent people involved, to the asinine 'rescue' packages' that apparently have mobile phones in them but no lighting, to the media circus and every local sen yai getting themselves in front of a screen with yet another harebrained initiative....

 

I have kids here, and sometimes I absolutely despair,,,,

I honestly despair of the nonsense and horrible snootery I see on this site and I think it's time to go.  Not necessarily all directed at you retsdon, (although the next part certainly is), but:

 

The boxes ARE lit!  Of course they are!!  Just because a news report on a website didn't specifically mention lighting all the Thai bashers come smugly crawling out.  Of course they are lit, these rescuers are not morons!

 

And do people really think that Navy Seals and all the best rescue forces available, all the other amazing volunteers fighting for these kids' lives (rather than sniping on a website) would send mobile phones along expecting the kids to pick them up and phone in their location just so superior <deleted> on here can look down on them?  Do you really??  Are they floating iPhone 10s along and thinking all will be ok now?  If they are close to shafts perhaps there can be an occasional signal, is that not worth trying?  Even if there's a slight chance it has to be worth trying, even if it only gives them some light.  But of course the smug guys on here would not bother.  Silly incompetent Thais, not like us Westerners.  Makes me sick.    Maybe they are not even mobile phones but a badly translated piece of writing - maybe they are walkie talkies, who knows.

 

This is a horrendous situation which has the best people in the country trying their utmost to rescue these kids.  Everything is worth trying.  For all the people on here looking down, SHAME ON YOU!!

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by josephbloggs

[Tug]

The bashing is just petty and mean perhaps the seals can make that long of a penitration dive they have the gear but if the current is to strong or if you kill the rescuers that is not a win as you can see they are doing everything possible let’s us pray for success and safety not blame storming and insulting others in there time of need 

[cardinalblue]

Pretty certain that most of these kids would have had phones on them...they would have called last Saturday had there been a signal....

 

#1 priority is to locate where the bodies are...then access at near that point...

 

just b/c they finally figure out how to get in doesn't mean they won't face barriers or dead ends and then start access process over again?

 

sounds like a needle in a random haystack search...

 

wonder if they have created an artificial deadline?

 

activity vs achievement?

 

this will be an excellent case study so I hope the EOC has assigned a university or third party to handle this responsibility....it could save future lives down the road if managed and communicated properly...

 

Nature always bats last....

Edited June 29, 2018 by cardinalblue

[Aussieroaming]

On a positive note, lets hope the fantastic team trying to rescue the kids succeèd and I for one thank them for sacrificing their time and comfort and putting themselves at risk in order to help someone in need.

[Scott]

A number of nasty, off-topic, inflammatory and troll posts have been removed.   Continue to make personal commentary about other members and you WILL receive a suspension.  

 

It is tiring for those trying to read these threads to wade through endless bickering and nonsense.  

 

 

[janclaes47]

Live updates here.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/thailand-cave-rescue-news-live-updates-form-tham-luang-as-us-and-british-join-search-for-12-missing-a3874151.html

[Fish Head Soup]

9 hours ago, Ks45672 said:

I listened to the English expert guy today giving an interview for Thai TV 

She asked him if they still have Chance to save them alive and he said something like, if they are not found in the next 24hrs.....probably not

Yes because he's probably trying to tell the Thai authorities that they need to get their act together and get it together quickly. But he has to say it in an indirect way, as they don't react to criticism well, perceived loss of face and then in to a long charade of acting. I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned setting up a committee to investigate what went wrong.

[simoh1490]

10 hours ago, Artisi said:

So you are fully aware of what the weather conditions were, possibly at a great distance from the cave, or are you clairvoyant as well. 

 

Not to dwell on this point but it's a point that worth making unequivocally:

 

I've included a link below to the water levels/usage of the reservoirs in Thailand, click on Bhumibol or Mae Kwang at the top of the page and hold your mouse pointer over the 2018 line and see the date the line stopped going down and started to go up. That point occurs after enough rain has fallen to saturate the ground and run-off begins to form streams and rivers underground which then feed into water catchment areas and cause the water levels in the reservoirs to rise - that date this year was 1 May, not July and the locals will know that, all of them.

 

http://www.thaiwater.net/DATA/REPORT/php/rid_dam_1.php?lang=en

 

[anon537687643]

I honestly despair of the nonsense and horrible snootery I see on this site and I think it's time to go.  Not necessarily all directed at you retsdon, (although the next part certainly is), but:
 
The boxes ARE lit!  Of course they are!!  Just because a news report on a website didn't specifically mention lighting all the Thai bashers come smugly crawling out.  Of course they are lit, these rescuers are not morons!
 
And do people really think that Navy Seals and all the best rescue forces available, all the other amazing volunteers fighting for these kids' lives (rather than sniping on a website) would send mobile phones along expecting the kids to pick them up and phone in their location just so superior on here can look down on them?  Do you really??  Are they floating iPhone 10s along and thinking all will be ok now?  If they are close to shafts perhaps there can be an occasional signal, is that not worth trying?  Even if there's a slight chance it has to be worth trying, even if it only gives them some light.  But of course the smug guys on here would not bother.  Silly incompetent Thais, not like us Westerners.  Makes me sick.    Maybe they are not even mobile phones but a badly translated piece of writing - maybe they are walkie talkies, who knows.
 
This is a horrendous situation which has the best people in the country trying their utmost to rescue these kids.  Everything is worth trying.  For all the people on here looking down, SHAME ON YOU!!
 
 

It’s the real world in Thailand and if you don’t like folk who been here a long time and now how it works (or doesn’t work ) then don’t read the stuff !


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[DM07]

15 hours ago, sanemax said:

Why do you feel that its "dumb" ?

I have seen what Julie is referring to numerous time with Westerners abroad . think 

  Some Westerners abroad seem to think that if somethings dangerous , they then will be stopped from doing it , * I can walk into this cave , so it must be safe to do so, or someone would stop me from going in * , kind of thing .

    Its not an intentional mindset, its just that we are used to Countries that high higer rules and regulations

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I said before: please change your name!

The poster with the cave story explained, that it was his first time IN THAILAND...IN A CAVE...RECOMMENDED TO HIM by a (Thai-) friend!

How are you to know, that something that is POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS in YOUR part of the world and is handled with a modicum of safety features, is not handled with any modicum of safety in another country?

And please...we are not talking about "a decent amount of safety"! We are talking almost NO safety, as told in the posters story!

That's why the post was dumb and of the same arrogance, the original poster was accused of!

Now...I understand, you are one of those people, who have to defend the indefensible, because everything in Thailand is just so super great, they can do no wrong!

Now please go and change your username!  

Edited June 30, 2018 by DM07

[neeray]

19 hours ago, Enoon said:

 

 

A respectful silence is maintained by many who already know the end of this.

 

 

"already know the end"

N-O-B-O-D=Y  knows the end. Nobody.

And none of us on TVF know what all efforts are being made. In my very humble opinion, while I support all efforts, I believe the drilling from the top will stand the best chance. Every agonizing hour of every day brings the odds of locating these kids closer. Drill baby drill!

[lanista]

I hope the officials arent giving the parents false hopes.  Its starting to look really bleak. No sign of life in 7days.

No food,  no warm clothing, maybe dirty drinking water  assuming of course they survived the initial deluge of flood water last saturday afternoon.

Hope for a miracle because thats what it will be. Definitely get rid of all the mediums, psychics ,nutters and religious quacks because they just what their ugly mug on telly.

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by lanista