CHANGE? USA Income verification for retirement visa extension Chonburi/Jomtien

[Felt 35]

I think Ubonjoe should close this tread, if not all of us whatever country we come from will have to head to the MFA annually to verify what we get in pension income.?

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

And it gets wearisome to have to listen to the drone of You Americans cheat. What you Americans do isn't fair.

I get tired of it since the US embassy is not only one that does the same thing.

There are other embassies and consulates that only do a affidavit, statutory declaration and etc without proof being required since they also are not allowed to verify the income.

[bkk6060]

They could never do this truly accurately, without hiring some financial forensic investigators.

 

I know guys who more then meet the requirements with their gross; but are putting out child support, alimony, negative cash flow on rentals, etc. Their net is below the requirement, but they put down what they make gross without all the takeaways.

 

Is this cheating then?  

 

Bottom line, I do not see enough staff support to get to 100% accuracy on this.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by bkk6060

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

 

Is this cheating then?

No it is not cheating.

Gross income is what should be on the proof of income.

[Suradit69]

17 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

 

What supporting documentation do you have on hand when you apply for an extension of stay? Has it ever been asked for?

I have the annual tatement from US Social Security and payment confirmation from the bank that distributes my pension.

 

Although there is no requirement that you actually. transfer baht 65,000 a month to  Thailand, I  also  have Thai bank deposit records that shows that my foreign sourced deposits exceed that amount on average. And usually when I do the extension renewal I have a Thai bank balance between baht 100K to 200K.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Suradit69

[5633572526]

On 7/12/2018 at 11:39 AM, glegolo said:

Still hoping Joe??? So far only americans and the others that use " swearing" and "I promise" instead of hard proof...  Immigration in Thailand knows about you guys, and what you are doing..

 

glegolo

Just got my retirement extension in bkk and only needed the letter from the embassy. USA citizen, honestly because 1 person had a problem with 1 immigration official do we really all need to panic.

[glegolo]

3 hours ago, 5633572526 said:

Just got my retirement extension in bkk and only needed the letter from the embassy. USA citizen, honestly because 1 person had a problem with 1 immigration official do we really all need to panic.

Probably not, but it is a good start!!

 

glegolo

[JLCrab]

No -- but if the 1 person was turned away at Thai IMM because he could not produce any back-up information, THAT would have been a good start.

Edited July 15, 2018 by JLCrab

[bkk6060]

4 hours ago, 5633572526 said:

Just got my retirement extension in bkk and only needed the letter from the embassy. USA citizen, honestly because 1 person had a problem with 1 immigration official do we really all need to panic.

I agree but things are not always the same I am realizing.

I got mine a few weeks ago at Chonburi and they asked for a copy of my rental contract which fortunately I had.  The same address for the past 2 1/2 years.

So, you never know I guess just be prepared.

[kannot]

On 7/12/2018 at 4:58 PM, smotherb said:

If you will remember Joe, I had a similar situation happen in Hatyai in March of 2017. Immigration wanted to see the B65k/mo run through a Thai bank. Since it was my eleventh extension; the IO said she would accept it that time, but made me write a statement that I would show B65k/mo in my Thai bank for the next extension. When I went this March, there were new IOs and I asked about the bank book. She barely looked at it, instead she picked up the income letter and calculated the amount. I asked if the income letter was all I needed, she said yes.

 

I am sure the IOs know the US embassy acknowledgement; perhaps they randomly pick Americans to test.

I had  similar crap from an orificer last year when doing marriage extension said to me "next year you do retirement ok" nodded and smiled thought Ferk U and  left, came  back this year, different person no mention of retirement and did the normal marriage extension. This is the biggest problem here.

[tropo]

On 7/12/2018 at 11:57 AM, ubonjoe said:

I makes no difference to me since what I put on my affidavit is exactly what I get. I also have a bank book showing every satang of it coming in minus $5 for the transfer fee.

Other offices that want the proof now ask for it for those from all countries. Immigration is not aware of the requirements of every country. Some embassies that want proof are not all that stringent on their requirements.

I did my retirement extension yesterday. Australian - used a statutory declaration of income. No supplementary income verification was required at the Embassy or at the Jomtien Immigration Office.

[tropo]

On 7/13/2018 at 8:16 AM, glegolo said:

Yes you are of course right in what you are saying.. But it is the very many of those who lies that makes it so much harder for the rest of us,,, that today do not have to worry abour proof here and there.

 

But it is like the old greeks once said already for 2.500 years ago;  "The laws in a society, mirrors the character of it´s citizens....."

 

glegolo

It's a bit of stretch to accuse "very many of those who lies", just out of the blue, without any evidence. I'm guessing that your embassy doesn't allow the stat dec for income verification purposes and you're envious of others who have it easier. Why else would you keep harping on it? I'd be pretty sure that the majority of Americans and Australians (and other countries that do it) who get annual stat decs have more than 65k a month coming in.

 

I wish I could live on 65k a month, but it's impossible for me. My rent, electricity, internet, and water are already 40k a month.

[glegolo]

8 hours ago, tropo said:

It's a bit of stretch to accuse "very many of those who lies", just out of the blue, without any evidence. I'm guessing that your embassy doesn't allow the stat dec for income verification purposes and you're envious of others who have it easier. Why else would you keep harping on it? I'd be pretty sure that the majority of Americans and Australians (and other countries that do it) who get annual stat decs have more than 65k a month coming in.

 

I wish I could live on 65k a month, but it's impossible for me. My rent, electricity, internet, and water are already 40k a month.

It is a beutiful fantasiless guess that you make for my part. We have already seen in this thread alone, that there are in fact quite a number of liars among you guys, so tone down  a bit with your guesswork..

 

glegolo

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, glegolo said:

We have already seen in this thread alone, that there are in fact quite a number of liars among you guys, so tone down  a bit with your guesswork..

All I have seen in this topic are accusations with no proof.

I am sure there may be few that do fudge the numbers a little bit. Some perhaps as a small buffer for exchange rate fluctuations. But I don't think anybody would put a number that does not exist at all.

[ubonjoe]

A inflammatory post has been removed. Calling somebody childish is a flame.

[JLCrab]

These seem to me to be the options regarding US or any other country wherein a sworn affidavit only is required for the embassy to issue an income letter versus those countries like UK and Sweden who require some form of hard copy 'proof' as to the amount of monthly income claimed:

 

- Status quo.
- Have IMM officials, when submitting for extension in an IMM office, ask to be provided with some form of hard copy 'proof' of income for those from sworn-statement-only countries
- Have IMM issue a regulation that it will no longer accept any income letter from a country's embassy wherein its citizen claimant is not required to provide any hard copy 'proof' of income and for such persons seeking an extension of stay and in such case only the 800K in the bank method will be acceptable.

Edited July 18, 2018 by JLCrab

[glegolo]

28 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

All I have seen in this topic are accusations with no proof.

I am sure there may be few that do fudge the numbers a little bit. Some perhaps as a small buffer for exchange rate fluctuations. But I don't think anybody would put a number that does not exist at all.

I admire your eagerness to defend your motherland UbonJoe.

 

We have seen in this thread and in many other threads, people mentioning that their friends and so forth, clearly are faking and liying their income...

 

It seems to me that you guys resuse to accept the fact that people in general, all over the world are liars cheeters, and takes every chance to cut corners, not the least just americans and swedes....

 

glegolo

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, glegolo said:

I admire your eagerness to defend your motherland UbonJoe.

I am not defending only those from my home country. There are many other countries whose embassies do not require proof to get their income document so I am defending them as well.

I think calling many people liars and cheaters a rude and improper generalization.

Alos some embassies that do ask for proof are not all that strict on the proof of income required to get the income document. Many accept copies that could easily be doctored. Even documents that appear to be original can be created in this day and age.

[poanoi]

10 hours ago, tropo said:

It's a bit of stretch to accuse "very many of those who lies", just out of the blue, without any evidence. I'm guessing that your embassy doesn't allow the stat dec for income verification purposes and you're envious of others who have it easier. Why else would you keep harping on it? I'd be pretty sure that the majority of Americans and Australians (and other countries that do it) who get annual stat decs have more than 65k a month coming in.

 

I wish I could live on 65k a month, but it's impossible for me. My rent, electricity, internet, and water are already 40k a month.

based on what exactly ? wishful thinking ?

facts are the average american pension is less

that the required income, around 1400 bucks a year,

which is closer to half the required 65k baht a month.

in all likelihood it is also so that the poorest americans

are over represented here,

meaning the majority got less than

1400 bucks to live on.

one exception aside, those i knew of

living here on retirement extension

had 500 to 1200 bucks to feed on

Edited July 18, 2018 by poanoi

[poanoi]

30 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I am not defending only those from my home country. There are many other countries whose embassies do not require proof to get their income document so I am defending them as well.

I think calling many people liars and cheaters a rude and improper generalization.

Alos some embassies that do ask for proof are not all that strict on the proof of income required to get the income document. Many accept copies that could easily be doctored. Even documents that appear to be original can be created in this day and age.

maybe by a counterfeit specialist, like 1 in 1000,

but i wouldnt be able to trick my embassy with false

material, they see it every week of their lives,

they know better than i do how it should look like,

i have also never requested a proof of

income that didnt come with a stamp.

Edited July 18, 2018 by poanoi

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, poanoi said:

facts are the average american pension is less

that the required income, around 1400 bucks a year,

which is closer to half the required 65k baht a month

I assume you mean a monthly income of $1400 not a year. That is about what the average social security payments are. But I can assure you there are many that get more than that. Also social security is not the only pension people can receive. There are pensions from employers and individual retirement plans that people can contribute to in preparation for retirement.

Also $1400 is a little over 46k baht at todays exchange rate which is a good deal more than half of 65k baht.

 

[NanLaew]

On 7/13/2018 at 4:59 PM, ubonjoe said:

...

Gross income is what should be on the proof of income.

I disagree on what income should be declared for Thai Immigration purposes.

 

They are only interested in the applicant meeting the minimum amounts published in the law to qualify for a long-term stay and any annual extension thereof. They do not need to see or are they really interested in all the other stuff.

 

I always bring the documentary evidence that the British Consul has used to issue my income letter just in case the IO asks for it. They are entitled to ask for it and any other documentary evidence as well.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

... Many accept copies that could easily be doctored. Even documents that appear to be original can be created in this day and age.

A very good point considering most banks and other financial institutions are forcing customers to opt-in to receive the old, original paper statements by snail mail. For a long time it was an opt-out but it's getting harder. Bloody tree huggers!!

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

I disagree on what income should be declared for Thai Immigration purposes.

So you think that immigration did not consider there could be certain required expenses deducted from a person's income when they were considering the income requirements.

What about health insurance, taxes, and etc. Also the cost of transferring the funds into the country could be factored in.

Another example of immigration using gross income is the minimum salary requirement for an extension of stay based upon working. It is a gross salary prior to taxes, social security and etc being deducted.

[NancyL]

Since the original report, which incidentally came from someone being told by his visa agent that the request for documentation might happen, not an actual request at Chiang Mai Immigration, I've talked with at least six people who have received 12-month extensions due to retirement at CM Imm., presenting Income Letters from the U.S. Consulate.  They were not asked to provide any additional "proof" of their income.  It's worth noting that all these people were "repeat customers" who had previously been granted retirement extensions in Chiang Mai.  Also, they are people who did bring some form of proof with them, carried in files folders or notebooks, so they looked like they were prepared to answer the question.  None were using agents.

 

Incidentally, the need to arrive at 2 am to get a queue number seems to have subsided even though they are still using a unified queue for students, retirees and I think volunteers.  It's the mixing of students and retirees that caused a problem, starting in April, because reps from the schools, esp. "Hand-to-Hand" combat school would arrive early and claim 15-20 queue numbers.  Anyway, one friend went this week at 11:30 pm, just to get forms and was told he could still receive a queue number for the day for a retirement extension.  He watched in the afternoon as a parade of "Hand-to-Hand" combat students were served, including four numbers that were called and no one responded, indicating the H-to-H rep had claimed too many numbers at the beginning of the day.  But at least he was processed and didn't have to get up at zero dark stupid.

[NanLaew]

24 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

So you think that immigration did not consider there could be certain required expenses deducted from a person's income when they were considering the income requirements.

What about health insurance, taxes, and etc. Also the cost of transferring the funds into the country could be factored in.

Another example of immigration using gross income is the minimum salary requirement for an extension of stay based upon working. It is a gross salary prior to taxes, social security and etc being deducted.

Why does it have to be so complicated? It's not the IRS we are dealing with here.

 

Does the Thai law ask for clarity on any deductions from what they claim to sustain them legally in LOS for another year?

 

No, it simply asks for evidence of either a seasoned lump sum in a Thai bank account or the rough equivalent amount earned or otherwise available from the previous year in a non-Thai bank, ie. they approve the applicants historical financial bona fides. They don't even care to check of you still have that income for the 12 months ahead.

 

One of these days they may wise up and instead of suggesting that tourists purchase adequate medical insurance for an average 3.8 day stay, they can ask that retirees and other long-stay enabled foreigners carry a minimum acceptable health insurance as part of the 365-day extension renewal procedure. That makes infinitely more sense than simply asking how much they had last year.

[bkk6060]

15 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Why does it have to be so complicated? It's not the IRS we are dealing with here.

 

 

 

One of these days they may wise up and instead of suggesting that tourists purchase adequate medical insurance for an average 3.8 day stay, they can ask that retirees and other long-stay enabled foreigners carry a minimum acceptable health insurance as part of the 365-day extension renewal procedure. That makes infinitely more sense than simply asking how much they had last year.

I know many that would leave. They do not feel their health and life is worth $1500 dollars a year....

[jmd8800]

29 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Since the original report, which incidentally came from someone being told by his visa agent that the request for documentation might happen, not an actual request at Chiang Mai Immigration, I've talked with at least six people who have received 12-month extensions due to retirement at CM Imm., presenting Income Letters from the U.S. Consulate.  They were not asked to provide any additional "proof" of their income.  It's worth noting that all these people were "repeat customers" who had previously been granted retirement extensions in Chiang Mai.  Also, they are people who did bring some form of proof with them, carried in files folders or notebooks, so they looked like they were prepared to answer the question.  None were using agents.

 

Incidentally, the need to arrive at 2 am to get a queue number seems to have subsided even though they are still using a unified queue for students, retirees and I think volunteers.  It's the mixing of students and retirees that caused a problem, starting in April, because reps from the schools, esp. "Hand-to-Hand" combat school would arrive early and claim 15-20 queue numbers.  Anyway, one friend went this week at 11:30 pm, just to get forms and was told he could still receive a queue number for the day for a retirement extension.  He watched in the afternoon as a parade of "Hand-to-Hand" combat students were served, including four numbers that were called and no one responded, indicating the H-to-H rep had claimed too many numbers at the beginning of the day.  But at least he was processed and didn't have to get up at zero dark stupid.

I was in CM Imm yesterday to get a re-entry permit. Lots of black Hand to Hand combat t-shirts around.

 

I asked the immigration rep at the re-entry desk when the new buildings would open and she responded : In a month 

 

I'm hoping that things smooth out after the initial month or two at the new buildings.

[tropo]

5 hours ago, poanoi said:

based on what exactly ? wishful thinking ?

facts are the average american pension is less

that the required income, around 1400 bucks a year,

which is closer to half the required 65k baht a month.

in all likelihood it is also so that the poorest americans

are over represented here,

meaning the majority got less than

1400 bucks to live on.

one exception aside, those i knew of

living here on retirement extension

had 500 to 1200 bucks to feed on

The problem with your theory is that it's not only about pensions. Many have investment income and other sources of income besides pensions. The minimum age to get a retirement extension is 50. How many 50 - 60 years olds collect pensions?

 

... and I'll put money down that people from countries that have to jump through hoops to prove income to their embassies are the ones getting most upset about the others that use stat decs.

Edited July 18, 2018 by tropo

[JLCrab]

5 minutes ago, tropo said:

<snip>

... and I'll put money down that people from countries that have to jump through hoops to prove income to their embassies are the ones getting most upset about the others that use stat decs.

... and without suggesting it is anyone posting on here, it is also persons who do not have the 'proof' docs to submit to their embassy to receive an extension of stay income letter who are saying: But if I wuz a Yank, I could just lie!