UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Been watching listening to EU country leaders today. Very sad. What decent people.

 

We should stay close to our friends. Mad to walk away

 

I wish we had leaders like that...

Every other country in Europe has some form of proportional representation, which forces consensus politics on their governments.

 

We stick with FPTP with it's inherent tribalism 

[dunroaming]

27 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Another one, like tebee and grouse, simply arguing in favour of what is most personally beneficial.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Surely we all do that, don't we?  Otherwise what would be the point of "democracy"?

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

split tory into centre and right

split labour into centre and left

do something very serious with the totally hopeless voting system you have in the UK

 

you may start to see some decent leaders

 

or keep on living in the past with empire and coal being sought after

 

 

Yes, our FPTP system is outmoded now.

 

It just brought it home to me how fundimentally decent our European Friends are

 

????

 

ta' ska' du hav'

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

Every other country in Europe has some form of proportional representation, which forces consensus politics on their governments.

 

We stick with FPTP with it's inherent tribalism 

 

YES! and you lose in the longer perspective

(and you have a lousy parliament - hard to take it seriously)

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, talahtnut said:

What do you think Russian satelites are for?

Laughing the navy sub 'Astute' hiding on a sand bank

off the Scottish coast?

 

Satellites tracking submarines. Do tell us more!

 

Astute class is excellent, can't speak for the drivers though.

 

Maybe we need some  Aldermaston products on Astute class cruise missiles...

[vogie]

26 minutes ago, tebee said:

Every other country in Europe has some form of proportional representation, which forces consensus politics on their governments.

 

We stick with FPTP with it's inherent tribalism 

Just out of interest tebee, how many seats would UKIP have won with proportional rep. Serious question?

[melvinmelvin]

58 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Another one, like tebee and grouse, simply arguing in favour of what is most personally beneficial.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

dunno what is driving adammike - tebee - grouse

 

but as a general comment to your post;

 

when it comes to referenda/GEs

some people look into their purse and assess the satang level

and conclude - more satang would be nice - which vote is most likely to replenish my purse

others may lift head open eyes and look forward and assess which vote would be beneficial to the country in the longer perspective

housing - health care - education - job security - ......

 

voters looking into purses gives way to demagogues and populists

and they do not give a shaite about voters

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[nontabury]

44 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Surely we all do that, don't we?  Otherwise what would be the point of "democracy"?

That is why the remoaners are so against democracy.

Unless of course the decision goes in their favour.????

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by nontabury

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Another one, like tebee and grouse, simply arguing in favour of what is most personally beneficial.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

How dare you

 

Back up that statement 

 

Apologise

 

or get suspended

 

 

[vogie]

38 minutes ago, vogie said:

Just out of interest tebee, how many seats would UKIP have won with proportional rep. Serious question?

Wow, this is interesting.

 

 

[mommysboy]

The argument for the existing system of voting used to be that it produced strong government. It is outdated in my view.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Just out of interest tebee, how many seats would UKIP have won with proportional rep. Serious question?

too many, but maybe the Conservative party would not have morphed into new UKIP, trying to catch that demographic and stayed nearer center right. 

[tebee]

50 minutes ago, nontabury said:

That is why the remoaners are so against democracy.

Unless of course the decision goes in their favour.????

 

But the very definition of democracy allows you to have views differing to the government line and to advocate those views  in public.

 

Maybe you would prefer some flavor of totalitarianism? 

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the very definition of democracy allows you to have views differing to the government line and to advocate those views  in public.

 

Maybe you would prefer some flavor of totalitarianism? 

But surely if you can't accept a democratic decision, you yourself are being repressive.

[tebee]

No because no democratic decision is set in stone forever - should no one have opposed the poll tax as a legitimately elected government had introduced it ?

 

Should no one have ever questioned our EU membership as the people voted for it in 1972?

 

Things change, ideas that once seemed sensible look stupid with hindsight.

 

and of course politicians lie  - should we have to accept votes based on those lies without question?

  

[Basil B]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Yes, our FPTP system is outmoded now.

 

It just brought it home to me how fundimentally decent our European Friends are

 

????

 

ta' ska' du hav'

Did we not have a referendum a few years ago?

2011

Quote

The referendum concerned whether or not to replace the present "first-past-the-post" system with the "alternative vote" (AV) method and was the first national referendum to be held across the whole of the United Kingdom in the twenty first century. The proposal to introduce AV was overwhelmingly rejected by 67.9% of voters on a national turnout of 42%.

Sorry for the minority who voted like I did, but the others who voted against and those that did not vote deserve all the ills that the corrupt system brings...

[melvinmelvin]

58 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The argument for the existing system of voting used to be that it produced strong government. It is outdated in my view.

that argument is still largely correct

 

however, with disciplined politicians minority governments and coalition arguments also works

 

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Did we not have a referendum a few years ago?

2011

Sorry for the minority who voted like I did, but the others who voted against and those that did not vote deserve all the ills that the corrupt system brings...

???

But AV voting is not about proportionate representation.

 

consider this

 

number of MPs could safely be reduced, to say 200-300

number of constituencies reduced to around 20, (or maybe 1 per shire - needs research)

            about 15 for England and another about 5 to sort out  Wales, NI, Scotland-Orkneys-Shetlands, Gib and Falklands etc

number of MPs per constituency largely built on population but also GDP impact - requires research and will to adjust 

as UK is learning (GDP impact not only measured in farthings but also in kind)

 

proportionate rep

 

you would see a different political landscape surfacing

 

[Basil B]

9 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

???

But AV voting is not about proportionate representation.

 

consider this

 

number of MPs could safely be reduced, to say 200-300

number of constituencies reduced to around 20, (or maybe 1 per shire - needs research)

            about 15 for England and another about 5 to sort out  Wales, NI, Scotland-Orkneys-Shetlands, Gib and Falklands etc

number of MPs per constituency largely built on population but also GDP impact - requires research and will to adjust 

as UK is learning (GDP impact not only measured in farthings but also in kind)

 

proportionate rep

 

you would see a different political landscape surfacing

 

 

Firstly Gib, Falklands, Channel Island, IOM have no representation at Westminster. 

 

Secondly I would welcome any form of Proportional Representation voting system, AV, STV, D'Hondt to name few...

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

But the very definition of democracy allows you to have views differing to the government line and to advocate those views  in public.

 

Maybe you would prefer some flavor of totalitarianism? 

The primary function of the Opposition is indeed to hold the Government to account.  The same Leavers vs Remainers.  The opposition to Brexit is in no small part related to the incredible difference to what was pledged and what has come about.

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

Every other country in Europe has some form of proportional representation, which forces consensus politics on their governments.

Do talk us through Poland and Hungary when you have a minute.

[SheungWan]

11 minutes ago, Basil B said:

..... I would welcome any form of Proportional Representation voting system, AV, STV, D'Hondt to name few...

I guess you would like a second referendum on proportional representation then......

[Basil B]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I guess you would like a second referendum on proportional representation then......

No point...

Certainly at the moment.

[vinny41]

13 hours ago, vogie said:

The British Armed Forces are probably organising a coup d'etat as we speak. A military junta has got to be better than anything on offer at the moment.

 

Re Gib, I liked Barry best.

Interesting idea Get rid of the House of Lords and the House of Commons immediately, No more Mep's as a Miltary Junta wouldn't be allowed in the EU

44% of UKIP voters would support a military coup

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/10/17/very-british-coup

Edited November 25, 2018 by vinny41

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

that argument is still largely correct

 

however, with disciplined politicians minority governments and coalition arguments also works

 

But what good is a strong, but incompetent government. 

[adammike]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

dunno what is driving adammike - tebee - grouse

 

but as a general comment to your post;

 

when it comes to referenda/GEs

some people look into their purse and assess the satang level

and conclude - more satang would be nice - which vote is most likely to replenish my purse

others may lift head open eyes and look forward and assess which vote would be beneficial to the country in the longer perspective

housing - health care - education - job security - ......

 

voters looking into purses gives way to demagogues and populists

and they do not give a shaite about voters

 

I'm a pensioner I can assure you money is not driving me,I do have a hatred of the Tories,along with the little England mentality that affects a majority of brexiteers.I believe we have been divided by the ruling/upper classes it's why we still have a predominance of men who went to  public school lording it over us,its also while I dislike football we have English men hating another English man because of the team he supports and or the town he comes from, we have been totally gamed we need the EU to make sure we don't take up arms again on the European continent,we are strong together but you voted for division and More fools you.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

I guess you would like a second referendum on proportional representation then......

Actually, yes. That is the sort of constitutional issue that should be decided by referendum. Sadly, as we now know, a large proportion of the population would find the question too difficult to comprehend 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Actually, yes. That is the sort of constitutional issue that should be decided by referendum. Sadly, as we now know, a large proportion of the population would find the question too difficult to comprehend 

you can safely include most MPs in that

 

proper proportionate representation, across several constituencies,

giving weight to GDP impact, #people, geographical balance, type of occupation (fish - pods - retirees -

blue collar industry - white collar industry), small parties, large parties,

tribal balance (jocks, scousers, geordies etc)

 

is actually quite complicated

 

 

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

But surely if you can't accept a democratic decision, you yourself are being repressive.

It is democratic decisions in the plural.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

It is democratic decisions in the plural.

Not interested.