Laws regarding power limits?

[eisfeld]

Is anyone aware of any laws in Thailand that require a manufacturer to limit the power output of a motorcycle? Honda has a few models for which they restrict the power output (quite heavily, CBR1000RR for example down about 60HP) in Thailand and they cite regulations but so far I couldn't find any relevant laws.

 

Does someone know which regulation/law they could mean?

[ktm jeff]

As far as i know , there is only the 110cc engine limit , for 15 year olds , no power limits.  You are correct in that Honda reduces the power of some of their bikes sold in thailand.  Is this because , whoever makes them , has made them for another country - India , Indonesia ?, and Honda just thinks it can get away with selling them off in Thailand. In England there are several levels of licence , with maximum power limits. Not so in Thailand. Maybe they are just surplus stock , destined for elsewhere.

[eisfeld]

From a bit of googling, I don't think bikes in India or Indonesia seem restricted. Not like the Thai Honda bikes anyways. And any kind of license restrictions can't be at play with 1000cc bikes that make 130HP ?

 

A Bigwing sales person even told me the new CB1000R was Euro spec which clearly can't be right if it's restricted.

 

So I think we're still not any wiser yet.

[Kwasaki]

You can get your bike to levels you want in Thailand, plenty of places will do it if you can't do yourself so no worries.

You can find out whether it's restricted or not easy enough.

[ktm jeff]

Sorry for late reply , was sorting something out on my phone.  Well im certainly no wiser . It was only a guess on my behalf that these Hondas are destined for other markets.  I see you are looking at a Africa Twin , but the ones available in Thailand have 40mm shorter suspension.  I just cant figure Honda out lately.  I passed my test long ago , but in England you can ride a 1000cc bike but it must be restricted to much less than 130BHP. Maybe as low as 65BHP.  It makes no sense to limit the power of Honda models , compared to other countries , as they still use the same basic engine and number of components.

[ktm jeff]

8 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

You can get your bike to levels you want in Thailand, plenty of places will do it if you can't do yourself so no worries.

You can find out whether it's restricted or not easy enough.

When people , who were told by Honda that their models were full power , found out their 1000cc bikes were putting out less power than a 600cc bike , tried to get their money back - false advertising - but Honda refused to pay out.  Thailand has very few consumer protection laws that work. The owners then looked at bringing their Hondas up to standard,  Not easy. One poor sod wasted 250,000 and was still no better off. Its not just ECU and throttle bodies and complete exhaust systems that need changing.

[eisfeld]

48 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

You can get your bike to levels you want in Thailand, plenty of places will do it if you can't do yourself so no worries.

You can find out whether it's restricted or not easy enough

From what I heard at least for the current Fireblade it's not so easy as before. It doesn't seem to be a simple ECU flash and you're good to go. But even if it were, it would void the warranty which isn't the best thing to do for a new, expensive bike imho. The question was more about why Honda is doing this in the first place.

[eisfeld]

38 minutes ago, ktm jeff said:

false advertising

They seem to be careful to not write any power or torque figures anywhere. Probably for this very reason.

 

If they would publish the lower numbers, people would see that they get a pretty bad deal when compared to bikes from other brands. If they'd publish original rest-of-the-world numbers, they'd be lying and probably liable. So they just don't publish anything and hope people don't find out...

[ktm jeff]

Many people have started to question the worth of Honda products. Yes , warranty will be void . The thread i can remember was from several years ago , 3/4 , and even after some serious money was spent / wasted , they were still 60BHP down - with no warranty.  I wonder if the true specs could be wiggled out by using the engine and frame numbers and some component codes such as the ECU and injection components.  All these are external components , although if the Honda dealer suspects your onto them , they wont let you make note of the serial numbers.

[findlay13]

I  just enquired about this today at the kawasaki dealer.I left none the wiser.?

In Australia you can buy a 650cc Kawasaki restricted version for learner riders and later de-restrict the bike for open licenced riders.They'd never heard of the practice OR my efforts at explaining it weren't understood[very likely]. but I was told "that's the model " as it is for everyone.

Edited August 10, 2018 by findlay13

[ktm jeff]

Lying , yes. Liable , not a hope in hell of getting your money back - many have tried. No consumer protection , hence your observation , or lack of , of any liability figures.

[ktm jeff]

7 minutes ago, findlay13 said:

I  just enquired about this today at the kawasaki dealer.I left non the wiser.?

In Australia you can buy a 650cc Kawasaki restricted version for learner riders and later de-restrict the bike for open licenced riders.They'd never heard of the practice OR my efforts at explaining it weren't understood[very likely]. but I was told "that's the model " as it is for everyone.

It seems this dodgy practice of palming off lower spec models is only practiced by Honda , as i have never heard of these problems with other companies. The restriction throttle "plates" are added at  the dealer , not the factory , and the bike comes with a certificate to say its being officially restricted.

Edited August 10, 2018 by ktm jeff

[moose7117]

if you look at various countries you can find that places like Singapore, malaysia have lower power rating fo the same bike, i had a zx12r and in the manual the model designation was followed by a country cade and power limits.

my current H2 has the letters TH after the model and this indicates that it is a slightly restricted Thailand model .

 

 

 

 

?

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

The owners then looked at bringing their Hondas up to standard,  Not easy. One poor sod wasted 250,000 and was still no better off. Its not just ECU and throttle bodies and complete exhaust systems that need changing.

Yeah I don't understand why he would do that without an engineer getting involved who could assess engine components easily to see what was going on.

 

My conspiracy theory is Thailand authorities are not kene on powerful big bikes and also my take is Honda complies.  

 

Many moons ago in my 1992 Fireblade 898 was carbureted also the 93 and the ECU did very little compared to today, then the Fireblade's top speeds were played down at 165 mph ( 260 kph ) a few adjustments and a timed 185 was possible.

[Kwasaki]

16 hours ago, eisfeld said:

A Bigwing sales person even told me the new CB1000R was Euro spec which clearly can't be right if it's restricted.

Can't believe you would believe that, never come across any sales people that knew much in any bike make main dealer. ?

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, eisfeld said:

From what I heard at least for the current Fireblade it's not so easy as before. It doesn't seem to be a simple ECU flash and you're good to go. But even if it were, it would void the warranty which isn't the best thing to do for a new, expensive bike imho. The question was more about why Honda is doing this in the first place.

As said it must be Honda doing what Thailand wants nothing to do with laws.

Relates a bit to trucks too IMO when we were buying the newly designed Isuzu 1.9 diesel truck selling in Thailand, I asked if we could have the europe engine version that has more Bhp and twin turbo's they said there's no such thing. ?

Edited August 11, 2018 by Kwasaki

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, findlay13 said:

I  just enquired about this today at the kawasaki dealer.

In Australia you can buy a 650cc Kawasaki restricted version for learner riders and later de-restrict the bike for open licenced riders.They'd never heard of the practice OR my efforts at explaining it weren't understood

Be fair they wouldn't have a clue anyway, comparisons of what you get in OZ compared to Thailand are so very different IMO.

As said the Thai 15 year old bike rider is restricted to c.c. other restrictions are another thing.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Kwasaki

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

As said it must be Honda doing what Thailand wants nothing to do with laws.

But why would Thailand want a 130HP Fireblade? Nobody wants that ?

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Can't believe you would believe that

Well of course I didn't and told him on the spot that this can't be the case. The problem is that the conversation doesn't go any further than that. There's not much interest in fact-finding and I get why, there's no way this could help them sell bikes.

[eisfeld]

5 hours ago, moose7117 said:

if you look at various countries you can find that places like Singapore, malaysia have lower power rating fo the same bike, i had a zx12r and in the manual the model designation was followed by a country cade and power limits.

my current H2 has the letters TH after the model and this indicates that it is a slightly restricted Thailand model .

?

 

Just checked the Fireblade in Singapore. Seems to have full power at roughly 190HP.

 

So if your H2 is restricted, what are the official specs for your bike?

[Kwasaki]

Just now, eisfeld said:

But why would Thailand want a 130HP Fireblade? Nobody wants that ?

Well you could fit it out with a turbo or nos it. ?

 

I dunno BHP ain't everything the Uk & Europe had 100 bhp limit at one time it didn't really do much to 1000 c.c. machines they eventually found, my 100 c.c. CBR1000CF went to over 140 mph ( 225+ kph ) at a g-force and later the 135 BHP did over 160 mph ( 260 kph ).

 

Maybe Thailand implement this eventually. ?

https://survivalskills.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/new-anti-motorcycle-legislation-sweeps-europe/

[findlay13]

4 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Be fair they wouldn't have a clue anyway, comparisons of what you get in OZ compared to Thailand are so very different IMO.

As said the Thai 15 year old bike rider is restricted to c.c. other restrictions are another thing.

I wasn't comparing what we get in Oz to here. I was trying to give  an example of  the factory  restricting power for novice riders  and to find out if the bikes here had  factory restrictions which could be removed , apparently they don't.

Edited August 11, 2018 by findlay13

[nandele]

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[OneMoreFarang]

Just some general information: I recently bought a KTM and KTM has an official power part catalogue. It includes an exhaust.

But according to KTM they are not allowed to import some parts, including the exhaust to Thailand.

And I think he also mentioned they are not allowed to install it even if I would get it somehow into Thailand.

I guess there are similar regulations for other companies.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

Maybe talk with some specialist i.e. Red Baron

http://www.redbaronbkk.com/

In my experience they are experts and at least some speak English every well.

 

[Kwasaki]

6 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Just checked the Fireblade in Singapore. Seems to have full power at roughly 190HP.

Yeah it maybe sounds good don't it but do you know what that means and how it is being claimed.

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Maybe talk with some specialist i.e. Red Baron

http://www.redbaronbkk.com/

In my experience they are experts and at least some speak English every well.

 

Experts in what. ?

[ktm jeff]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Maybe talk with some specialist i.e. Red Baron

http://www.redbaronbkk.com/

In my experience they are experts and at least some speak English every well.

 

When people discovered the Honda spec was 60BHP down , they bought their bikes from Red Baron.  I think , even this company was unable to fully help to de-restrict the "official" Hondas.  The KTM power-part exhaust may  simply  be  a closed course use only part , and not have an approved road ( E or TIS ) stamp. Its strange why Honda seems so keen to "self restrict" when others dont with their Thai models.

[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

Its strange why Honda seems so keen to "self restrict" when others don't with their Thai models.

Agree somewhat but there has to be a reason, how can we know that other manufacturers are not doing the same to some degree.

Smaller bikes don't seem to be affected my 250 goes very well. ?

Maybe if there was a decent engine Dyno in Thailand then riders could know what power they have compared to the western bikes say. 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Kwasaki

[eisfeld]

13 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

 Its strange why Honda seems so keen to "self restrict" when others dont with their Thai models.

 

That's exactly the question I'm posing with this thread. Would be awesome to find out. If there really were regulations that required this then I'd expect at least the other Japanese companies to also play along and not Honda being the only one. Alternatively I'd also be interested in seeing evidence that other manufacturers are doing the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Agree somewhat but there has to be a reason, how can we know that other manufacturers are not doing the same to some degree.

 

Maybe if there was a decent engine Dyno in Thailand then riders could know what power they have compared to the western bikes say.

 

Bigwing Phuket has a Dyno. How "decent" it is, I have no idea ? I got some free runs on there actually but never used it. Maybe time to try it out.

 

16 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah it maybe sounds good don't it but do you know what that means and how it is being claimed.

 

Well at least it means the official distributor of Honda in SG claims their bikes have the same power as e.g. EU spec bikes. I'd assume they don't restrict them then. Don't think a SG company like that would do false advertising, not in SG.