How Many More Visa Runs Can I Do?

[jeebusjones]

Like many others, I have found myself in a rather complicated situation because of the new visa regulations. I understand the "official" wording of the rules, but it is rather difficult to work out the consequences in the real world.

My tourist visa is about to expire, so I'm contemplating going for a 30 day visa exemption, but I'm not sure if I can or how many times I can. For the visa exemption calculating experts (Maestro, Lopburi, Tropo etc...), can you figure out this one?

My history is as follows:

Enter Thailand 26 October, 2006 on visa exemption

Exit Thailand 20 November, 2006 -- (26 days?)

Re-enter Thailand 23 November, 2006 with 60 day tourist visa

With 30 day extension, my current visa expires on 20 February, 2007.

(It should also be noted that prior to Oct 26, I'd been on visa exemptions for about 10 months already)

Now, according to the rules, I should be entitled to two more visa runs, right?

So, let's say I take two more. The first will bring me to March 21. The second will bring me to April 19.

My next question is about the 180 day period. Did my 180 period begin on October 1, when the new regulations came into effect? Or did my period begin on October 26, my first entry with visa exemption?

Scenario 1 -

If it began on October 1, then my 180 period will end on or around March 1. This would mean that I could take a visa run on February 20, and still be entitled to three more visa runs after that, because from March 1 a new 180 period would have begun. That would be 4 visa runs in a row!

Scenario 2-

If the 180 period began on October 26 with my first entry, then the period would end somewhere around March 26. This would mean that I could take a visa run on February 20 (number 2 in the 180 period), then take another visa run on March 21 (number three in the 180 period). Then, because after March 26 a new period begins, I'd be entitled to another three visa runs. This would mean 5 visa runs in a row!

Or Scenario 3-

The people at immigration are completely lost with the calculations, and just give me three visa runs from February 20, when actually I'd be entitled to a minimum of four.

What do you think will happen? Which scenario is most likely? Or is there another scenario I haven't mentioned? The uncertainty is a bit disconcerting. Any advice from the visa experts will be much appreciated.

Thank you

Edited February 7, 2007 by jeebusjones

[jeebusjones]

I just realized I made a mistake with the 180 period. So, new scenarios:

Scenario 1 -

If the 180 period started on Oct 1, then it will end on or around March 31. So if I do a visa run Feb 20 (number 2), then another on March 21 (number 3), I should be entitled to another three visa runs, as the new period will begin on March 31. This would mean 5 visa runs in a row!

Scenario 2 -

If the 180 period began on Oct 26 with my first entry, then the new period would start on April 23. So if I make a visa run on February 20 (number 2), and another on March 21 (number 3), this will bring me to April 19. Actually here things become tricky. But let's say I obtained a 7 day extension from Suan Phlu, and then did a visa run on April 26. Would I then be entitled to another three visa runs?

What do you think is most likely to happen?

Thanks for your help

[Maestro]

Have you already tried ThaiVisa’s brand new calculator?

Anyway, in the end it all depends on how good the immigration officer looking at your passport is in interpreting the rule and in counting the days.

--

Maestro

[jeebusjones]

Have you already tried ThaiVisa’s brand new calculator?

Anyway, in the end it all depends on how good the immigration officer looking at your passport is in interpreting the rule and in counting the days.

--

Maestro

I have used the visa calculator. It's an excellent tool. But my question is really more about the 180 day period. Does it start from the first entry after October 1, or does it start from October 1?

As others have suggested, I plan to bring a printout of all of my visa activities with exact dates and days to show to immigration if any questions are asked.

[Maestro]

...my question is really more about the 180 day period. Does it start from the first entry after October 1, or does it start from October 1?

Nobody really knows. I have seen no case reported yet where this was a deciding factor in granting a new visa-exempt entry.

And even once we see such case, it does not necessarily mean that the interpretation used by one officer will be used also by another officer.

--

Maestro

[PeaceBlondie]

Let me henxforth tri to exemplify you an examplar posthaste forsooth, verifly of a certainty not toerhwixt obtainxable: if it were to have been the past pluperfect intermediary penultimate visa on exit (wish is to say, not a non-nonimagrant semi-business), then sure. Otherwise, maybe. Unless, perhaps.

This is what the visa rules mean to the officer. Nothing's engraved in stone.

There were no tests in school for the officers to learn to count to ninety. No tests that really counted.

[cali4995]

Have you already tried ThaiVisa’s brand new calculator?

Anyway, in the end it all depends on how good the immigration officer looking at your passport is in interpreting the rule and in counting the days.

--

Maestro

I have used the visa calculator. It's an excellent tool. But my question is really more about the 180 day period. Does it start from the first entry after October 1, or does it start from October 1?

As others have suggested, I plan to bring a printout of all of my visa activities with exact dates and days to show to immigration if any questions are asked.

jeebusjones, there is another topic a few pages back in the forum, something about entering at the mae-hong-son checkpoint and the fellow had taken the trouble to write down some posted info immigration had given.

"VISA EXEMPTION

Passport holders from 39 exempted countries will be able to enter into the Kingdom of Thailand without visa and remain in Thailand for 30 days per each visit. However, the total duration of stay should not exceed 90 days within a six month period, counting from the date of first entry."

you've also noticed something else which had occurred to me, "even if" you are legal everyday of your stay, if you're stringing together visa exempt entries with single entry tourist visas you're going to come up short a couple of days from the 180 figure. in your case decidedly more so because you left early. the seasoned moderators on the board are giving the best advice, as a newbie i'm struggling to understand myself and i can only imagine folks back home trying to plan their trips must be utterly confused. couldn't hurt to ask immigration, go for it.

[Maestro]

"VISA EXEMPTION

...the total duration of stay should not exceed 90 days within a six month period, counting from the date of first entry."

That’s the one, cali4995. An English translation of the full text is here. Paragraph 3 applies.

At the moment, nobody can say for sure how Immigration is using the 6-month period. It seems pretty clear where somebody does 90 days visa-exempt stays in a row, with 3 entries back to back. Such people have been told that after 90 days visa-exempt, they must wait 3 months until they can get a new visa-exempt entry.

In a case like yours, jeebusjones, it is generally assumed that Immigration will count the visa-exempt days since 26 OCT, which so far are 26 for the 6-month period from 26 OCT to 25 MAR. Entering again without visa on 20 FEB and leaving on 21 MAR brings the total to 56. A new visa-exempt entry on 21 MAR should give you another 30 days and admit you until 19 APR.

After this, it will depend on how the officer looks at it, and we have already seen that not all see it the same way. A likely scenario is that on 19 APR the officer will count the visa-exempt days from 19 NOV to 18 APR, come up with a total of 61 days and give you only 29 days. But you can’t really know what will happen until that day arrives and you present your passport to the Immigration officer.

If you prefer not to live with that uncertainty, you should get a tourist visa again.

--

Maestro

[tropo]

But you can’t really know what will happen until that day arrives and you present your passport to the Immigration officer.

If you prefer not to live with that uncertainty, you should get a tourist visa again.

--

Maestro

It would seem this is the best advice: If in doubt, obtain a tourist visa.

Maestro, any idea what happens at BKK airport if a tourist is deemed to be over their 90-day allowance? I know at land borders they're likely to be turned away.

I'm assuming they'll issue 7 days???

I suspect the airlines will be nervous about allowing passengers to board who don't have visas.

I'll be trying this out myself late March. i.e. entering without a visa.

[cali4995]

Have you already tried ThaiVisa’s brand new calculator?

Anyway, in the end it all depends on how good the immigration officer looking at your passport is in interpreting the rule and in counting the days.

--

Maestro

I have used the visa calculator. It's an excellent tool. But my question is really more about the 180 day period. Does it start from the first entry after October 1, or does it start from October 1?

As others have suggested, I plan to bring a printout of all of my visa activities with exact dates and days to show to immigration if any questions are asked.

jeebusjones, there is another topic a few pages back in the forum, something about entering at the mae-hong-son checkpoint and the fellow had taken the trouble to write down some posted info immigration had given.

"VISA EXEMPTION

Passport holders from 39 exempted countries will be able to enter into the Kingdom of Thailand without visa and remain in Thailand for 30 days per each visit. However, the total duration of stay should not exceed 90 days within a six month period, counting from the date of first entry."

you've also noticed something else which had occurred to me, "even if" you are legal everyday of your stay, if you're stringing together visa exempt entries with single entry tourist visas you're going to come up short a couple of days from the 180 figure. in your case decidedly more so because you left early. the seasoned moderators on the board are giving the best advice, as a newbie i'm struggling to understand myself and i can only imagine folks back home trying to plan their trips must be utterly confused. couldn't hurt to ask immigration, go for it.

p.s. when i say "couldn't hurt", you might get barked at a little in the thai language, something which could be translated as "farang go home! i don't want to count days and stamps!"

[jeebusjones]

you've also noticed something else which had occurred to me, "even if" you are legal everyday of your stay, if you're stringing together visa exempt entries with single entry tourist visas you're going to come up short a couple of days from the 180 figure.

Yes it is a bit of a problem. Actually my 3rd visa exemption will end 4 days before the 180 period. But since I only used 26 days on my first visa exemption, I'd still technically be eligible for four more days. Since that would bring me into the new 180 period, the immigration officer could technically give me the full 30 days, with 4 coming from the old 180 period, and 26 coming from the new. I'm not holding my breath for that one though...

The best thing to do is plan your tourist visa trip to take up the few extra days that visa exemption won't cover. It may mean taking a four or five day trip instead of two, but it solves the problem.

Edited February 8, 2007 by jeebusjones

[jeebusjones]

"VISA EXEMPTION

...the total duration of stay should not exceed 90 days within a six month period, counting from the date of first entry."

That’s the one, cali4995. An English translation of the full text is here. Paragraph 3 applies.

At the moment, nobody can say for sure how Immigration is using the 6-month period. It seems pretty clear where somebody does 90 days visa-exempt stays in a row, with 3 entries back to back. Such people have been told that after 90 days visa-exempt, they must wait 3 months until they can get a new visa-exempt entry.

In a case like yours, jeebusjones, it is generally assumed that Immigration will count the visa-exempt days since 26 OCT, which so far are 26 for the 6-month period from 26 OCT to 25 MAR. Entering again without visa on 20 FEB and leaving on 21 MAR brings the total to 56. A new visa-exempt entry on 21 MAR should give you another 30 days and admit you until 19 APR.

After this, it will depend on how the officer looks at it, and we have already seen that not all see it the same way. A likely scenario is that on 19 APR the officer will count the visa-exempt days from 19 NOV to 18 APR, come up with a total of 61 days and give you only 29 days. But you can’t really know what will happen until that day arrives and you present your passport to the Immigration officer.

If you prefer not to live with that uncertainty, you should get a tourist visa again.

--

Maestro

Seems like the best advice, Maestro. So is it a 6 month period now, and not 180 days?

But wouldn't the new period start on April 25, not March 25?

[tropo]

Since that would bring me into the new 180 period, the immigration officer could technically give me the full 30 days, with 4 coming from the old 180 period, and 26 coming from the new. I'm not holding my breath for that one though...

It's debatable whether or not they'll use a 180 day, or 6-month period. The first makes more sense, but either way there's only a few days in it.

There is not a new 180 day period starting when the old one finishes. It's a rolling period changing by the day....used to calculate the total days that a tourist has stayed in Thailand over the last 6 months when they arrive.

As Maestro has demonstrated and as your situation illustrates, it's a very difficult calculation to make, especially if it's done manually at the airport/border immigration post. They really need to computerize the calculation. Will this happen, or will they scrap it??

[PeaceBlondie]

I hope or suspect that the authorities know how to suddenly stop enforcing a rule before it becomes obvious that the authorities are losing face daily. When I was a govt. official in another galaxy, I always avoided making determinations in areas where I might be made foolish, like certain sub-clauses of Code Section 280A.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

you've also noticed something else which had occurred to me, "even if" you are legal everyday of your stay, if you're stringing together visa exempt entries with single entry tourist visas you're going to come up short a couple of days from the 180 figure.

Yes it is a bit of a problem. Actually my 3rd visa exemption will end 4 days before the 180 period. But since I only used 26 days on my first visa exemption, I'd still technically be eligible for four more days. Since that would bring me into the new 180 period, the immigration officer could technically give me the full 30 days, with 4 coming from the old 180 period, and 26 coming from the new. I'm not holding my breath for that one though...

The best thing to do is plan your tourist visa trip to take up the few extra days that visa exemption won't cover. It may mean taking a four or five day trip instead of two, but it solves the problem.

Such chicanery to avoid getting a real visa.

[jeebusjones]

There is not a new 180 day period starting when the old one finishes. It's a rolling period changing by the day....used to calculate the total days that a tourist has stayed in Thailand over the last 6 months when they arrive.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Are you saying that they always look at the previous 180 days/6 months each time I arrive? My understanding was that the period would start with my first entry, then after 180 days/6 months, a new one would start.

If it's a rolling period as you say, this does complicate things quite a bit more. What a ridiculous system!

[Maestro]

any idea what happens at BKK airport if a tourist is deemed to be over their 90-day allowance?

Anybody’s guess. No fixed rule, I am sure. One officer does one thing, another does another, the same officer does different things at different times depending on how he feels.

I suspect the airlines will be nervous about allowing passengers to board who don't have visas.

Their standard procedure is, or can be, to deny boarding if the passenger has no visa and no confirmed flight out of Thailand within 30 days of arrival. If they don’t implement this, it is their own calculated risk.

--

Maestro

[tropo]

There is not a new 180 day period starting when the old one finishes. It's a rolling period changing by the day....used to calculate the total days that a tourist has stayed in Thailand over the last 6 months when they arrive.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Are you saying that they always look at the previous 180 days/6 months each time I arrive? My understanding was that the period would start with my first entry, then after 180 days/6 months, a new one would start.

If it's a rolling period as you say, this does complicate things quite a bit more. What a ridiculous system!

Yes, as a rolling 180-day (6-month) period, if you stayed for 3 consecutive 30 day visa exempt periods, there is no way around it; either get a tourist visa, or stay out for a full 90 days from your last exit. This is what is making the calculations so difficult.

If it didn't work this way, then hypothetically you could stay for 6 months straight on visa exempt entries.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

any idea what happens at BKK airport if a tourist is deemed to be over their 90-day allowance?

Anybody’s guess. No fixed rule, I am sure. One officer does one thing, another does another, the same officer does different things at different times depending on how he feels.

I suspect the airlines will be nervous about allowing passengers to board who don't have visas.

Their standard procedure is, or can be, to deny boarding if the passenger has no visa and no confirmed flight out of Thailand within 30 days of arrival. If they don’t implement this, it is their own calculated risk.

--

Maestro

The airlines are also checking at boarding time lest they have to return the non-compliant punter to departure location.

[cali4995]

There is not a new 180 day period starting when the old one finishes. It's a rolling period changing by the day....used to calculate the total days that a tourist has stayed in Thailand over the last 6 months when they arrive.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Are you saying that they always look at the previous 180 days/6 months each time I arrive? My understanding was that the period would start with my first entry, then after 180 days/6 months, a new one would start.

If it's a rolling period as you say, this does complicate things quite a bit more. What a ridiculous system!

according to the letter of the law http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/2notice/rtp608EN.pdf it is actually "6 months" not "180 days". i'm guilty of making that mistake. if you read this translation carefully, in one of the paragraphs it does actually say from date of "first entry". this statement "from date of first entry" is seen again on the royal thai embassy websites in los angeles and london. using thaivisa's date calculator, 6 months for me = 183 days. but 3 exempt entries+1 tourist visa =178 days. so it looks like if you wanted another visa exempt entry you would have to wait 5 days in cambodia or laos before your return? i'm experiencing complete brain fade on the subject, i got a "D" in college calculus. i'm leaving the final analysis to tropo or maestro, it's simply beyond me.

[jeebusjones]

...using thaivisa's date calculator, 6 months for me = 183 days. but 3 exempt entries+1 tourist visa =178 days. so it looks like if you wanted another visa exempt entry you would have to wait 5 days in cambodia or laos before your return?

I think the best thing would be to plan your trip for the tourist visa to fill up those extra five days. Now, instead of just a quick 2 day trip every 6 months, it'll have to be a five or six day holiday.

Another option would be to get the 7 day extension on one your last visa exemption for 1,900 baht. Does anyone know if you'd be able to get the extension, after your 90 days were up? I'd expect that immigration would be happy to get the money...

[tropo]

My history is as follows:

Enter Thailand 26 October, 2006 on visa exemption

Exit Thailand 20 November, 2006 -- (26 days?)

Re-enter Thailand 23 November, 2006 with 60 day tourist visa

With 30 day extension, my current visa expires on 20 February, 2007.

(It should also be noted that prior to Oct 26, I'd been on visa exemptions for about 10 months already)

Now, according to the rules, I should be entitled to two more visa runs, right?

So, let's say I take two more. The first will bring me to March 21. The second will bring me to April 19.

Assuming you were going to try for another visa exempt period on April 19, here is a possible result.

Let's take it further. Let's say you decided to stay away for a month and came back on May 19, what would be the result?...another 30 days.

And then you tried again on June 17:

...no days available this time. You're out again!

Finally you come back on September 17 and you're in business again for a full 90 days:

Edited February 9, 2007 by tropo

[Firefan]

This is fascinating stuff! These calculations must be very hard for the officers at border emmigration to handle.

A friend with emmigration contacts (so not direct - so take it for what it's worth) checked and it is clearly 90 days max on visa-exempt stamps in any 6 month ROLLING period. I.e. since rules was implemented 1st Oct. the period will only start "rolling" from 1st April and up till then the stamps/days counted will naturally be counted from 1st Oct 2006.

Now; whether the officers can actually implement that calculation is another story.

Cheers!

[tropo]

This is fascinating stuff! These calculations must be very hard for the officers at border emmigration to handle.

A friend with emmigration contacts (so not direct - so take it for what it's worth) checked and it is clearly 90 days max on visa-exempt stamps in any 6 month ROLLING period. I.e. since rules was implemented 1st Oct. the period will only start "rolling" from 1st April and up till then the stamps/days counted will naturally be counted from 1st Oct 2006.

Now; whether the officers can actually implement that calculation is another story.

Cheers!

They'll have to start using a computer when the period starts to roll after 1st April. Up until that date it's still a straight forward calculation. If the tourist is under 60 days since October 1, he gets 30, and if he's over that he gets the balance from 90...easy.

Edited February 9, 2007 by tropo

[jeebusjones]

Assuming you were going to try for another visa exempt period on April 19, here is a possible result.

http://www.udi.no/templates/VisumKalkulator.aspx?id=2083

That's an excellent tool you've found. Yes the "rolling" period definitely complicates things quite a bit more, at least from the visa runner's perspective.

I do have another hypothetical question. Let's say that a person did three visa exemption runs, and used up their 90 days. However, on the last one, what if the person got a new passport? It seems likely that then the person would be able to do another 90 days with visa exemption, since obviously nothing is computerised yet at Thai immigration.

But what happens when a person gets a new passport? Do they need to have their current entry stamp transferred to the new passport? Where is that done, and who does it?

Most people doing visa runs have been getting the numbers 1, 2, 3 next to their stamps. Would the "3" be transferred into the new passport as well, preventing the new passport holder from doing another visa run?

I'm very curious about this because my passport is pretty full and it's about time to get a new one anyway.

[tropo]

I do have another hypothetical question. Let's say that a person did three visa exemption runs, and used up their 90 days. However, on the last one, what if the person got a new passport? It seems likely that then the person would be able to do another 90 days with visa exemption, since obviously nothing is computerised yet at Thai immigration.

But what happens when a person gets a new passport? Do they need to have their current entry stamp transferred to the new passport? Where is that done, and who does it?

Most people doing visa runs have been getting the numbers 1, 2, 3 next to their stamps. Would the "3" be transferred into the new passport as well, preventing the new passport holder from doing another visa run?

I'm very curious about this because my passport is pretty full and it's about time to get a new one anyway.

I'm curious about this too. There have been a lot of similar queries on this forum about that very subject over the last several months.

It would seem that although they are not yet geared to compute the 90 day periods, we are put on a computer database when we arrive along with our photo. This would seem a necessity for any Immigration Department as so many people get new passports, lose them, have dual nationality etc.

Edited February 9, 2007 by tropo

[cali4995]

Assuming you were going to try for another visa exempt period on April 19, here is a possible result.

http://www.udi.no/templates/VisumKalkulator.aspx?id=2083

That's an excellent tool you've found. Yes the "rolling" period definitely complicates things quite a bit more, at least from the visa runner's perspective.

I do have another hypothetical question. Let's say that a person did three visa exemption runs, and used up their 90 days. However, on the last one, what if the person got a new passport? It seems likely that then the person would be able to do another 90 days with visa exemption, since obviously nothing is computerised yet at Thai immigration.

But what happens when a person gets a new passport? Do they need to have their current entry stamp transferred to the new passport? Where is that done, and who does it?

Most people doing visa runs have been getting the numbers 1, 2, 3 next to their stamps. Would the "3" be transferred into the new passport as well, preventing the new passport holder from doing another visa run?

I'm very curious about this because my passport is pretty full and it's about time to get a new one anyway.

i think maestro's earlier assessment is probably the wisest suggestion. just get another single entry tourist visa and you can avoid the anxiety. these visa exempt entries are just an ever descending spiral of problems the outcome of which you can never be certain. sure, you guys might be able to build speadsheets to calculate this with mathmatical certainty but i don't see immigration doing that.it's just a big red flag which says "check me".

[cali4995]

Assuming you were going to try for another visa exempt period on April 19, here is a possible result.

http://www.udi.no/templates/VisumKalkulator.aspx?id=2083

That's an excellent tool you've found. Yes the "rolling" period definitely complicates things quite a bit more, at least from the visa runner's perspective.

I do have another hypothetical question. Let's say that a person did three visa exemption runs, and used up their 90 days. However, on the last one, what if the person got a new passport? It seems likely that then the person would be able to do another 90 days with visa exemption, since obviously nothing is computerised yet at Thai immigration.

But what happens when a person gets a new passport? Do they need to have their current entry stamp transferred to the new passport? Where is that done, and who does it?

Most people doing visa runs have been getting the numbers 1, 2, 3 next to their stamps. Would the "3" be transferred into the new passport as well, preventing the new passport holder from doing another visa run?

I'm very curious about this because my passport is pretty full and it's about time to get a new one anyway.

i think maestro's earlier assessment is probably the wisest suggestion. just get another single entry tourist visa and you can avoid the anxiety. these visa exempt entries are just an ever descending spiral of problems the outcome of which you can never be certain. sure, you guys might be able to build speadsheets to calculate this with mathmatical certainty but i don't see immigration doing that.it's just a big red flag which says "check me".

Do you remember this? http://www.khaosanroad.com/thailand_visa_issues.htm It was an interview given at Sabah cafe & Cinema on Khaosan Rd. supposedly with some credible immigration official. Basically a question and answer session. I think this took place in September 2006? Not sure about that. There is such pitiful lack of factual, printed information on this subject. Maybe the Thais want it to be vague? Then they can make any determination at any time and nobody has a copy of the rules to pull-out and say, no, that's not correct? In fairness, the "Thai way" works "most" of the time, unless of course you happen to be the exception.

[Dupont]

...using thaivisa's date calculator, 6 months for me = 183 days. but 3 exempt entries+1 tourist visa =178 days. so it looks like if you wanted another visa exempt entry you would have to wait 5 days in cambodia or laos before your return?

I think the best thing would be to plan your trip for the tourist visa to fill up those extra five days. Now, instead of just a quick 2 day trip every 6 months, it'll have to be a five or six day holiday.

Another option would be to get the 7 day extension on one your last visa exemption for 1,900 baht. Does anyone know if you'd be able to get the extension, after your 90 days were up? I'd expect that immigration would be happy to get the money...

Two five day holidays a year, six visa runs, two extensions!!

Must be nearly time to consider working legally and paying the tax, which is one of the reasons they started this in the first place.

People (the bar owners and illegal workers, which is the majority of people affected) should spend more time trying the legal route and less time trying to work out how to circumvent this one.

By no means certain that anybody is going to get a second 60 day tourist visa when the next batch of 90 day stamps expire. The more you get, the more you don't look like a tourist and this is very easy to alter when the authorities decide to clamp down again.

More likely that you are going to have to start showing income and resources to get one. This is a logical next step for them, they just havn't thought of it yet. They will!

Edited February 11, 2007 by Dupont

[tartempion]

The airlines are also checking at boarding time lest they have to return the non-compliant punter to departure location.

Last time I boarded a plane (20 nov 2006 out of Paris CDG) the check-in agent only looked at the main page in my passport, so it's hit and miss.