Alcoholic friend in trouble

[marcusarelus]

8 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Withdrawal from alcohol can be VERY SERIOUS if one has been drinking daily and consuming more and more. DT's, heart failure etc.. is all possible if not done with care. Doing it yourself is not recommended. There are some detox units in and around Thailand.

 

The AA Thailand web site should have a phone number. AA does not offer detox service, but the person that answers the phone may have info on detox centers. A good hospital should offer these services. NOT emergency. He could probably check himself into Bangkok Pattaya  to dry out under a doctors care etc..

 

What AA does offer is a program of recovery AFTER an alcoholic has detoxed so they will not go back to it. (Alcoholics lack will power to abstain on there own entirely for good, which is necessary for alcoholics because they also cannot moderate) So anybody thinking it's just a matter of "just say no" has no idea what alcoholism is. Many alcoholics wish to stop / wish they could quit but find they cannot do it entirely and relapse repeatedly. AA has a way to stop relapsing .. recovery from alcoholism.

Have you ever been to an AA meeting?

[stud858]

Here's a tip. While weening..mix half beer half soda water. Adjust until you're addicted to soda water.

[likerdup1]

10 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Have you ever been to an AA meeting?

Yes, I am a member ?

[likerdup1]

14 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

What is an ex alcoholic?  I didn't know there was a cure.  I've been to 152 AA meetings in Pattaya and met fellows who had not had a drink in 40 years but they were still alcoholics.  I'm sure they would like to know how to become an ex alcoholic. 

Yes, I relate. Anyone who claims to be an ex-alcoholic was more than likely just a hard drinker who gave it up themselves after it got to be a problem. Alcoholics need help found in AA to abstain for good and all. I am an alcoholic. Just haven't had a drink in 25 years thanks to AA.

[nsimmons]

Hi All,

Very good advice from the first reply by "myfriendu" because www.NA.org  and www.AA.org have by far the best success rate wiorldwide. For being happy about not drinking, they are really the only game in town. AND they *never *fail,  if the person over drinking has a desire to stop, and  is able to have this attitude.. "I have tried  but I can't stay stopped myself, you tell me to jump, and I will say how high. I will do whatever it takes to get this monkey off my back". With that attitude I have never seen anybody not get sober in AA.  I guess because  AA people have DONE, what you are trying to DO. Nobody knows more about booze addiction than ex-alchies ...doh!

 

Best of luck to him and with AA/NA there is hope. If not, there is little. The US Military send those with any booze issue at all,  exclusively to AA,  because they have 70yrs of STATS as to what works best.

 

End of rant, nuff said!

 

NS

PS It is also much cheaper than rehab, which will tell you and take you to AA anyway. Try 6  local meetings first  ; )

[McKong]

I am a doper and a juicer.
I stopped.
Cold turkey.
It was a shitty adventure.
Unpleasant but not extremely so.
Actually some of the hangovers were worse. Much worse.
Wellbutrin helps quite a bit.
Don’t use that anymore either.
anyway, after 2 weeks abstinence,
I was 10-15 years younger.
So, said wow! This not so bad.
So, stopped smoking.
This was the hardest thing.
Very difficult.
So now I am clean.
Dick is performing adequately.
And I can push it for an hour without total exhaustion.
Do I miss my feel good chemicals?
Only when I’m awake.
When I am asleep,
I don’t miss them at all.
But I think I’m better off without them.
And,
That stuff cost money.
Adds up.
I’ve seen some guys die early due to the party hearty lifestyle.
Their life was more fun than mine.
I guess I made the right decision,
But not really sure.
Being alive and not dead
Means I can change my mind if I want to.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[likerdup1]

You know, there could be a guy who's life is in danger here. 

 

Clogging up this thread with off the cuff comments, poor attempts at humor and ill informed advice would not be the best choice in my view.    

 

[nsimmons]

15 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

What is an ex alcoholic?  I didn't know there was a cure.  I've been to 152 AA meetings in Pattaya and met fellows who had not had a drink in 40 years but they were still alcoholics.  I'm sure they would like to know how to become an ex alcoholic. 

Very good point, in the AA BiG Book, refers to "100 recovered alcoholics that wrote it. Most feel he meant "recovered from active drinking". So you are never "cured "IF you drink. But in AA the desire to drink is lifted,  and as long as you follow the suggestions, keep spiritually fit etc. For anything that matters ,you seem an ex-alcoholic. Which is a reasonable, if not perfectly accurate, statement to make, as it certainly seems that way. Not only that, Bill W said about being stingy when first come in,  and maybe don't donate for coffee etc. "They forget, people sober in AA have a higher earning capacity than other people". A very brave statement, and easy to disprove one would think. However,  in 21yrs I have observed that to be true.

 

Cheers,

 

NS

[Elad]

5 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

  If you're are at an AA meeting you're a drunk.  

Drunk as intoxicated or drunk with success.

[stud858]

45 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

You know, there could be a guy who's life is in danger here. 

 

Clogging up this thread with off the cuff comments, poor attempts at humor and ill informed advice would not be the best choice in my view.    

 

Don't dismiss humour. The best free medicine IMO. As long as its not offensive.

I do have a good one about a man with a liquor licence, but it may offend some. PM me if you want to hear it.

[likerdup1]

22 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Don't dismiss humour. The best free medicine IMO. As long as its not offensive.

I do have a good one about a man with a liquor licence, but it may offend some. PM me if you want to hear it.

When was the last time humor helped a guy detox from physical addiction to alcohol? Delerium tremens, heart attack, stroke, annurism?

 

Surely you can find a better forum to make your attempts to be funny.

[likerdup1]

51 minutes ago, nsimmons said:

Very good point, in the AA BiG Book, refers to "100 recovered alcoholics that wrote it

 

More than 100 men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. Forward to the first edition at the beginning of the AA book.

 

(Alcoholism is described in the AA book as a two fold illness)

AA describes alcoholism as an "Allergy of the Body" coupled with an "obsession of the mind".

 

Physical craving for more after an alcoholic starts drinking and the insanity of the first drink that occurs after an alcoholic tries to stop but goes back to it.

 

I love the word recovered. I consider myself a recovered alcoholic. NOT cured but recovered. Still and alcoholic but recovered through abstinence brought about by spirituality achieved through taking the 12 steps.

[stud858]

5 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

When was the last time humor helped a guy detox from physical addiction to alcohol? Delerium tremens, heart attack, stroke, annurism?

 

Surely you can find a better forum to make your sorry attempts to be funny.

I've been around many very sick people to know they can smile and the good it does.

Watch Patch Adams. A good movie if you haven't seen it.

But its ok. I can agree to disagree.

[likerdup1]

4 minutes ago, stud858 said:

I've been around many very sick people to know they can smile and the good it does.

Watch Patch Adams. A good movie if you haven't seen it.

But its ok. I can agree to disagree.

When comedians can do heart surgery you let me know. Watch some youtube videos about what a chronic alcoholic goes through on withdrawl from alcohol. Then perhaps you will agree to agree. Anyway, now WE ARE CLOGGING THE THREAD. End of this now.

[stud858]

You know the difference between a heart surgeon and god?

 

God knows he's not a surgeon.

 

 

[marcusarelus]

9 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

Yes, I am a member ?

Which Pattaya AA meeting would you suggest a newcomer go to?

[thailand49]

11 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Medical training.  Check the reputable rating services like https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings?page=116

 

You will find a number of Thai med schools ranked higher than USA med schools.  Same with the drinking per capita.  If you want to substitute anecdotal experiences rather than factual information from reputable reporting sources of course you will be correct. 

 

Another thing I like about Thai medical care is the requirement that new doctors spend (I think) 8 years at a government hospital. 

 

You are repeating many cliches about Thai medicine about the pills thing.  20 years of going to Thai hospitals has given me a good grasp of what is real and what is cliche.

 

A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

 

I'll take my chances in Thailand.

 

AA in America is boring and PC.  Pattaya AA (in my experience) was never boring and at least as entertaining as the local movies and the members always being up for going out to dinner after meetings.

 

At my age I don't do things are aren't fun and AA meetings in Pattaya are fun.  I had to drag myself to meetings in America (Not drinking is easy - don't drink and go to meetings) but not here.  Here I looked forward to it. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the information, I will look it up in regards to the medical and even if it doesn't change my mind it might open it up a bit. 

Good health

[likerdup1]

3 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Which Pattaya AA meeting would you suggest a newcomer go to?

There are meetings regularly 2 to 3 times a day in downtown Pattaya at the Soi Skaw Beach meeting place just off second Rd.. (not far from and across the street more or less from Central Festival) Also a noon meeting every day at the Long Stay Hotel in Jomtien. I prefer the Jomtien Beach Group meetings myself because they happen at Noon and, in my opinion, that meeting tends to stick more to the AA program from the AA book.   For all the details visit http://aathailand.org/

 

 

[Curt1591]

On 8/20/2018 at 4:10 PM, RT555 said:

It's called WILLPOWER.... If he ain't got it then he ain't going to fare well.

Its Black and white. 

He needs to get out of Thailand for starters, coz there are Losers every where you turn in Pattaya/Jomtien. 

It's willpower and support. The second post gave the best answer: http://www.aathailand.org/view-for-todays-meetings-do-not-use/4?field_region_value=Eastern+Seaboard-Jomtien-Pattaya-Islands. Supporting alcoholics is what they do. If he needs medical assistance, they should know. 

Pick an "open" meeting, find a sponsor, and listen closely. He may have to give up most of his current friends. Often, they will trigger a relapse.

[likerdup1]

24 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

It's willpower and support.

Forgive me but this is actually a common misconception. I am a long time member and very familiar with the basic texts of AA.  The AA book reiterates over and over that they found they lost the choice in drink. That their will power is practically non-existent. AA offers recovery through finding spirituality because alcoholics are powerless over alcohol.  The meetings provide support at developing spirituality in ones life through practicing the 12 steps.

 

Once I asked for a sponsor, got one and started doing the 12 steps with his direction I started getting real recovery.

 

It initially takes some amount of will to stop but will doesn't do the job of permanent abstinence in most all cases of chronic alcoholics. For real recovery and permanent and long term abstinence practice of the 12 steps to develop spirituality is the AA way.

 

If I could have just learned to keep my guard up and exercise stronger will I wouldn't need AA. Believe me, I tried for 4 years everyway I could think of and failed. Then I tried the 12 steps and found real recovery. Not even wanting it anymore. Farthest thing from my mind now provided I continue to practice the 12 steps (simple routine each day).

 

Today I am sponsoring 3 new men and attend meetings regularly. It's a great way of life for me. Much of my social life is in and around AA and I've been recovered for 25 years now.

[Curt1591]

1 hour ago, likerdup1 said:

Forgive me but this is actually a common misconception. I am a long time member and very familiar with the basic texts of AA.  The AA book reiterates over and over that they found they lost the choice in drink. That their will power is practically non-existent. AA offers recovery through finding spirituality because alcoholics are powerless over alcohol.  The meetings provide support at developing spirituality in ones life through practicing the 12 steps.

 

Once I asked for a sponsor, got one and started doing the 12 steps with his direction I started getting real recovery.

 

It initially takes some amount of will to stop but will doesn't do the job of permanent abstinence in most all cases of chronic alcoholics. For real recovery and permanent and long term abstinence practice of the 12 steps to develop spirituality is the AA way.

 

If I could have just learned to keep my guard up and exercise stronger will I wouldn't need AA. Believe me, I tried for 4 years everyway I could think of and failed. Then I tried the 12 steps and found real recovery. Not even wanting it anymore. Farthest thing from my mind now provided I continue to practice the 12 steps (simple routine each day).

 

Today I am sponsoring 3 new men and attend meetings regularly. It's a great way of life for me. Much of my social life is in and around AA and I've been recovered for 25 years now.

Thanks for correcting me. But, ...

 

If nothing else, it takes willpower to stick with AA (or any other program).

As terms of probation, I was obliged to attend AA for a year. I almost bailed!

Only after meeting up with a great guy in the group, was I able to stick it out. 

"AA offers recovery through finding spirituality ..."

AA is, indeed, basically a church. And, like all churches, many members feel it's "my way or the highway. " Open meetings are the classic "I used to be like you. Then I found AA. Now I am saved. You too can be like me".  I really wanted to smack some of the self-righteous fools.

Cheech and Chong summed it up best: "I used to be all [messed] up on drugs. Now I'm all [messed] up on the lord ..."

I took away many great tools from my 1 year. But, it's been close to 45  years since that last meeting, and I have been clean and sober since. I quit drinking and moved on. 
 

[Sheryl]

1. He drinks 330ml heinikin cans. 16-18 a day. His plan is to slowly cut down over three weeks to a month until he is down to one can a day, at which point he will quit in the hopes that he will have weaned himself off alcohol.
2. He still is looking for a particular hospital recommendation in Pattaya if he needs an ER.
 

There is a finite number of hospitals in Pattaya. All of them have ERs able to treat people in the throes of alcohol wirhdrawal, provided they know what it is and do not mistake it for a psychotic episode (both being fairly common occurrences in Pattaya ERs). If it is bad he may not be able to provide the necessary history.

As previously explained, deciding to not get medical help until/unless it is bad enough to warrant an ER trip is a huge mistake, especially for someone with a history of bad withdrawal reactions. Potentially a life threatening mistake. He should go under the care of a doctor specializing in this now. That will probably prevent his ever needing to go to an ER but if it does not, he should then go to the ER where his physician works.

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[swissman53]

I do not belief in god, and nobody in AA told  me ever I have to.

My higher power are all the members of AA without them I would not be many years a sober and happy alcoholic.

Nobody must go in a AA meeting. If you want, thats ok, if not, thats ok too.

If I listen to does AA's I can take out whats good for me and can try to find my way.

If i do not drink the first glass and do not forget the last one, a lot of each days is worth living....

[likerdup1]

2 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

Thanks for correcting me. But, ...

 

If nothing else, it takes willpower to stick with AA (or any other program).

As terms of probation, I was obliged to attend AA for a year. I almost bailed!

Only after meeting up with a great guy in the group, was I able to stick it out. 

"AA offers recovery through finding spirituality ..."

AA is, indeed, basically a church. And, like all churches, many members feel it's "my way or the highway. " Open meetings are the classic "I used to be like you. Then I found AA. Now I am saved. You too can be like me".  I really wanted to smack some of the self-righteous fools.

Cheech and Chong summed it up best: "I used to be all [messed] up on drugs. Now I'm all [messed] up on the lord ..."

I took away many great tools from my 1 year. But, it's been close to 45  years since that last meeting, and I have been clean and sober since. I quit drinking and moved on. 
 

I've tried to make a point that chronic alcoholics, including myself cannot do what you have done.  I lack the will power to stay abstinent on my own thinking.

 

Going to meetings is not practicing the program of AA. The program of AA is the 12 steps. Also going to many meetings does not necessarily mean you will understand what the AA program is. Unfortunately after 25 years and thousands of meetings it is a cold hard fact that even the fellowship is full of people who don't really understand the AA program. I attribute my success to asking for and getting help from studious AA members who knew the literature through and through. Primarily the AA Big Book and 12 steps and 12 traditions book. I consider myself a literature enthusiast and it's the best thing I ever did for myself. I know the real program of AA as it was written over 70 years ago.

 

I will tell you that even AA (it is plainly written in the AA book) considers people who can do what you did hard drinkers that were able to leave it alone given sufficient reason. pg 20/21 in the AA book. In my view you and according to the AA literature you were never really alcoholic. You had a problem with alcohol, went to some meetings and then stayed abstinent on your own using "tools" what ever that is. You used your own will power to stay sober. Myself and many AA's I know, especially long timers that had been relapser's for several years cannot exercise will power to stay abstinent. I tried for 4 years and I could only stay dry for 2 months usually less. And this was while I was going to meetings! When I finally got a sponsor and followed his instruction on doing the steps I got recovered from alcoholism. AA is not a church. You don't have to do the steps to attend meetings, but if you want recovery it is strongly suggested that you do. The entire first portion of the AA book explains how to recover using the 12 steps of AA.

 

 

[keithnchiangmai]

It has been over 23 years since I have drank alcohol. I had moderate withdrawal, I call it "shook dry" . I was able to withdraw at home. Severe withdrawal can kill you. They will use drugs to control the severity of symptoms in a hospital. The best information I can give is to start going to AA. He will find many who have gone through the same thing. More importantly, they will teach him not to drink if that's what he wants. Best of luck to him. 

[Don Chance]

www.baclofentreatment.com

 

Baclofen is easily available in Thailand.  You can read over the web site. Your 'friend' can take 2 or 3 tabs the first day and increase the dose every day by 1 tab till he gets to 80mg, then 80mg everyday for a long time....

You take  each dose slowly during the day, not all at once. That's it, very simple he should gradually lose interest in drinking as the dose increase he will drink less everyday.

 

Baclofen works on gaba-a neuron while alcohol works on gaba-b. So they are similar but not the same- i'd say gaba-a is more fun!

[Curt1591]

"I've tried to make a point that chronic alcoholics, including myself cannot do what you have done."

I spent over 4 consecutive years of my life without one single sober day. If that doesn't qualify as "chronic", I'd hate to think what does.
 

I would venture to say that most alcoholics can't do what we have done. I will also say that most will never admit they have a problem, therefore never progressing past step 1. 

I have never found strength in other people. If fact, people have always been a source of trouble for me. I have always tried follow the serenity prayer. That "wisdom" part is always the hardest. The less people involved, the easier it is. 
 

One of the greatest things about AA is that it is a place where one can bad mouth drinking, and not be ostracised.

It's funny how engrained drinking is. "Bring out your best",  "The night is made for Michelob" and other pitches. Makes people believe we cannot enjoy ourselves without drinking. A work associate was having a going away party. The wife of one of our crew members was supposed to invite everyone. I was never invited. When I inquired, the reply was "I didn't think you drank ..." 

 

[likerdup1]

27 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

I spent over 4 consecutive years of my life without one single sober day. If that doesn't qualify as "chronic", I'd hate to think what does.
 

I would venture to say that most alcoholics can't do what we have done. I will also say that most will never admit they have a problem, therefore never progressing past step 1. 
 

 

Drinking everyday for 4 years may or may not qualify you to be a chronic alcoholic. That is not the test in AA literature. It is lack of control - an inability to stop on ones own will power and inability to moderate after the first couple of drinks.

 

You and I have not done the same thing. You have abstained from alcohol by yourself. I could not abstain by myself. I think you still don't understand that is something I could not do. I tried for 4 years to abstain by myself and it never worked for more than 2 months and that was while going to meetings. I have abstained through doing the AA program 12 steps. I have recovery from alcoholism.  You stopped drinking using your own self discipline. AGAIN - something I could not do in 4 years of trying.

 

During these "dry" days I was not happy. I had problems being content, feeling a part of, feeling connected with people. Restless, irritable, discontented, out of place. Depressed sometimes, anxious. All symptoms of untreated alcoholism. I was only dry. I had no replacement for my medicine.

 

You know when I really suffered from alcoholism? It was when I wasn't drinking! Yes, when I wasn't drinking I felt terrible. I hated life sober. Thats why I drank in the first place.

 

The AA program of recovery replaces what alcohol did for me with a new way of living.

 

Life sober through practice of spirituality by putting the 12 steps in my life on a daily basis.

 

[thailand49]

On 8/21/2018 at 6:50 AM, marcusarelus said:

Medical training.  Check the reputable rating services like https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings?page=116

 

You will find a number of Thai med schools ranked higher than USA med schools.  Same with the drinking per capita.  If you want to substitute anecdotal experiences rather than factual information from reputable reporting sources of course you will be correct. 

 

Another thing I like about Thai medical care is the requirement that new doctors spend (I think) 8 years at a government hospital. 

 

You are repeating many cliches about Thai medicine about the pills thing.  20 years of going to Thai hospitals has given me a good grasp of what is real and what is cliche.

 

A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

 

I'll take my chances in Thailand.

 

AA in America is boring and PC.  Pattaya AA (in my experience) was never boring and at least as entertaining as the local movies and the members always being up for going out to dinner after meetings.

 

At my age I don't do things are aren't fun and AA meetings in Pattaya are fun.  I had to drag myself to meetings in America (Not drinking is easy - don't drink and go to meetings) but not here.  Here I looked forward to it. 

 

 

 

I think what is the utmost importance is that one gets the needed help they need.

I did some research started with your link on medical school and went through it twice from 1-150 and couldn't find any Thailand medical school listed. In doing so I did notice and I'm sure you did too the number of U.S. school listed which nearly dominate the top 150 listed. With the size of the U.S. it is understandable to the volume of medical students produced by these school. In S.F. where I was born and raised everywhere you go you could find large to small medical building with any type of specialty you might need. 

One of the most notable things between the U.S and Thailand you can become a Doctor coming from the poorest of a family which I term rags to richest, like in politics a person like Obama can be a President. I have a number of Doctors in my family here in Thailand majority of the Doctors I've met or read about their family were already will off thus their ability to attend the better University.

When it comes to medical errors, by the numbers you take into the account the accessibility of medical help for the size of a country like the U.S. and volume of the patient the higher number is misleading in my book. I believe the way things work here in Thailand majority of the population which is poor living outside of Bangkok can't even get available treatment in a government hospital thus the reason the age of death is so young compare to other Western countries. Based on what I'm reading it stands correct that the U.S. and the West have the best Universities for medicine and research.

[Curt1591]

"Drinking everyday for 4 years may or may not qualify you to be a chronic alcoholic. That is not the test in AA literature. It is lack of control - an inability to stop on ones own will power and inability to moderate after the first couple of drinks."

Being in a constant state, continually for 4 years, may not constitute chronic to you and/or AA. But, for 99.9% of the human population, it's pretty much textbook.

Not being able to predict the outcome of any drinking encounter, once initiated, is also my definition of an alcoholic. 

My sister is alcoholic, although she only drank maybe once or twice a year. But, without exception, every time she drank, it was a disaster. She would wake up in another city. The house furnishings would wind up on the front lawn. She couldn't find her car. She'd be in jail. Every time. It took me many years to convince her to not take that first drink. 

I didn't completely quit by myself. As I said, many of the things I learned at AA were taken to heart. And, my mother knew, through her own experience, exactly what I was going through and supported me.

I have nothing bad to say about practicing the principles of AA. I just don't care for the religion of AA. It's not a bad thing. I'm just not a "fellowship" kind of person. One of the reasons I drank is that I find most people annoying. After a few drinks, I could join right in!