Foreign Teacher Crackdown To Continue

[Jai Dee]

Foreign teacher crackdown to continue

Foreign teachers will continue to be the target of Immigration crackdowns, Thai Immigration Chief Pol Lt Gen Suwat Tumrongsiskul confirmed during his recent visit to Phuket on Monday.

His agency, in cooperation with the Ministry of Education (MoE), will continue to conduct strict background checks on all foreigners applying for teaching jobs in the Kingdom.

Gen Suwat said Immigration agreed with the MoE that such a crackdown was necessary to prevent crime and to protect students from the unqualified foreign teachers and those with deviant sexual behavior that could put children at risk.

Gen Suwat, in Phuket to attend a ceremony to lay the foundation stone for the new Phuket Immigration Office, confirmed that the new measures stemmed from the deportation last year of American John Mark Karr, a former suspect in the 1996 murder of six-year-old JonBenét Ramsey in Boulder, Colorado.

Karr, a confessed pedophile who falsely confessed to the Ramsey murder, was teaching at a school in Bangkok. He was deported under personal escort by Gen Suwat, who told reporters in the US that he sang the Bee Gees song Words to Karr to lift his spirits during the trip stateside.

On a more serious note, Gen Suwat told Phuket reporters said that random checks of 1,000 foreigners teachers had turned up 65 whose academic credentials had been forged.

“This convinced us of the need to be more strict in checking teachers’ qualifications. We don’t want unqualified teachers or sexual deviants teaching Thai children. This crackdown will help us to better screen the backgrounds of people coming here to teach,” he said.

Gen Suwat admitted that it is difficult to ascertain a person’s sexual proclivities though such checks, but said that police could gain valuable information about applicants by checking to see if they had criminal records back in their home countries.

On October 1, Immigration began enforcing a measure limiting to 90 days [over any 180-day period] the length of stay of tourists entering the country on successive “visas-on-arrival”. When asked if the new regulation had caused confusion and delays at Immigration checkpoints, Gen Suwat said the counting process was “no problem” for his officers, who could use a computer to help them count up the days.

He defended the new measure by saying it had little impact on legitimate long-stay tourists but was an effective way to prevent foreigners from using the free visas to stay in the country and work illegally.

“The 30-day tourist visa allows enough time for a tourist to travel around the country. If people want to work here, they should apply for a [non-immigrant] visa from the Thai embassy in their home country before coming,” he said.

Gen Suwat added that Immigration will continue to seek out and deport foreigners who overstay their visas and stay in the country working illegally, adding that nationals of China, India and Pakistan were among the most common offenders.

Regarding reports of long delays at Immigration checkpoints at Phuket International Airport, Gen Suwat said the situation has been improved by an increase in the number of Immigration officers posted there.

Additional officers could also be assigned there temporarily from other Immigration offices in the region if the need arises, he said.

Source: Phuket Gazette - 7 February 2007

[Ijustwannateach]

Needless to say, this is non-news- or at least, I don't see anything new in it except that an official has made more sounds about a "teacher crackdown" without giving any more specific details or spelling anything out. The newest thing here seems to be an admission that in fact this qualifications crackdown will not really prevent sex criminals from getting jobs, even though a suspected sex criminal is the cause of the crackdown. In other words, the solution is not the solution to the problem that provoked the solution, but rather the solution to some other problem. There seems to be a confusion between a checking of qualifications and a checking of criminal record. In other words, it doesn't really seem that they know what they're doing yet- nothing new about that.

Furthermore, half of the article is not even about teachers at all, but is about the ongoing "visa" crackdown to prevent people from living here permanently on tourist visas or entry permits.

[helicoptor]

If they carried out the checks they should be doing as a standard pre-requisite on new teacher applications in the first instance and not 'cut corners' they would not have such an issue 'as rogue teachers' as they have.

The main problem is supply and demand, this is IMO because of the poor pay given and long working hours. Good teachers choose other countries to teach where they are better looked after, Korea or Taiwan for example.

Ever decreasing circles unfortunately - offer better pay and conditions then the demand will decrease. Genuine, qualified teachers will then choose to teach in LOS over these other countries.

[sriracha john]

It's noteworthy in that it is confirmation by Immigration of what many had speculated in that the John Mark Karr case provided the impetus to reform not only teacher requirements but also likely played a role in the enforecement of the 90-day visa-free regulations.

Indeed, his case cast a dark shadow of world attention on Thailand with far reaching implications.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Indeed- which is odd because in his case, though he is absolutely a nut and quite possibly a pedophile, he has not actually been convicted of any crime- while there have been other, much worse and convicted sex criminals here working as teachers but who did not prompt such measures simply because they didn't bring international attention.

All shirt and no trousers!

"Steven"

[John K]

Well although the intent is good, but I think it will come to a sudden halt when they suddenly realize the check that they are talking about costs a significant amount of money. Whoever is already skimming the funds will have no part of that I am sure. So with that said 60-20-20 on this one.

[jaapfries]

Well although the intent is good, but I think it will come to a sudden halt when they suddenly realize the check that they are talking about costs a significant amount of money. Whoever is already skimming the funds will have no part of that I am sure. So with that said 60-20-20 on this one.

===============================================================

Not only that, John; but I feel very strongly, that the current powers would be far more productive, if they spent similar energy on some serious convictions w.r.t. Thaksin & his (very many !) cronies !

Geez; where are the "priorities" of mthese people ? ? ? ? ?

In Canada we have a saying: "He bent-over to pick-up a dime, but didn;t notice a $20-bill falling out of his back-pocket" . . . sure appears to be the case here, hey ?!

JK/Pattaya

[SnakeBite]

There are currently 302 users on this thread , how many do you figure have a REAL degree and how many are TEFL or TESL or how many have a fake degree?

[rexall]

Needless to say, this is non-news- . . . Furthermore, half of the article is not even about teachers at all, but is about the ongoing "visa" crackdown to prevent people from living here permanently on tourist visas or entry permits.

The connection is, I guess, that 90/180 will make it more difficult for "visa runners" from obtaining teaching jobs and working illegally. The assumption being that large numbers of "visa runners" work illegally. I don't think anyone really knows, but clearly operating principle is to identify visa runners as "undesirables" and once again to cast a very large net to catch a few small fish.

Aloha,

Rex

[redewenur]

Events have cast a spotlight on a dire situation. A decision has been made to apply existing laws to correct it. Let's hope that's carried out effectively. One can only speculate on alternative resources for the future.

Edited February 7, 2007 by redewenur

[PeaceBlondie]

In addition to not having been convicted of any known crime, John Mark Karr was fairly well qualified, but not to work at an intern'al school. The several Bangkok schools where he worked briefly have not shown that they even took preliminary steps to make him legal with work permit, teaching license, the right visa, etc. Were any of those schools mentioned by name in the press reports?

It would be great to have effectual criminal checks for all teachers (and other occupations, and retirees, and Thais), and great to have a cable car running from Satun to Mae Hong Son, great to prosecute Thaksin, great to do away with corruption, and great to have a decent airport - none of which will ever happen in the 21st century.

I'd settle for maintaining the corruption, in exchange for COMPETENCY. All these words about how the farang teachers need to be competent and accountable, with no mention of competency on the part of.........

[chownah]

I think they are going to screen the prospective teachers for Toxin sympathizers too.

[TBWG]

[

Karr, a confessed pedophile who falsely confessed to the Ramsey murder, was teaching at a school in Bangkok. He was deported under personal escort by Gen Suwat, who told reporters in the US that he sang the Bee Gees song Words to Karr to lift his spirits during the trip stateside. quote

Is this some sort of fiendish torture dreamt up by the BIB, what will they think of next.

TBWG

[rexall]

Needless to say, this is non-news- or at least, I don't see anything new . . . Furthermore, half of the article is not even about teachers at all, but is about the ongoing "visa" crackdown to prevent people from living here permanently on tourist visas or entry permits.

Now I am confused. Although, admittedly, easy enough for me to get that way.

In the ongoing discussions aobut the topic of credentials, I read that under new procedures or regulations, the chore of verifying teaching credentials falls to the employer who must satisfy the MOE that an applicant's credentials are legit. Later, I read that this would be accomplished by a written affidavit of some sort from the applicant affirming that his credentials are genuine. This never made sense as it seems to me that an applicant willing to present falsified credentials would be just as willing to file the required affidavit. However, if that is the face-saving measure that makes everyone happy, who am I to question it?

We have background checks (for a criminal record) and verification of university degrees and TEFL certs. Who is checking what??? Obviously, the Immigration cops do the background check. But when and how do they do it? Before the visa is granted? By continuing these random checks? According to some formula? Anybody have any idea?

And regarding credential checks, the same questions apply. But does that mean that the employers are no longer responsible? Do the Immigration Cops actually write to the university that issued the degree for confirmation? That hardly seems practical unless--as someone else here suggested--that the checks are done before a visa is issued, before an applicant enters Thailand.

Any thoughts?

Aloha,

Rex

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread is in danger of becoming another horse-flogging, when we were just finished with the first one.

Is there really such an appetite for arguments over things for which we have no answers, for which even the authorities don't seem to have accurate, precise, consistent, and detailed answers? Well, far be it from me to stop you, but please be warned that I for one will be strictly moderating this thread from the start this time around. The trolls have already had their fest recently; it's too early for another one.

"Steven"

[DragonQuest]

Peolpe in thailand will work, 3 month probation on teachers would be a good idea, but every school is different.

[Pattaya_Fox]

If a crackdown means a thorough background check by the authorities of people wishing to teach children or who are currently teaching children both from the criminal record departments in the Teacher`s own country of birth and the country from which the teacher has come from then this is a good thing in my opinion.

The onus of checking teaching qualifications should lie with both the authorities and the School who is employing or about to employ the individual

Children have to be protected from the few who would abuse them and in order to do this all must be checked.

In the Uk it is now standard practice that any person who is going to teach or in any way be involved with children in a working or advisory role are automatically checked.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Pattaya_Fox

[John K]

As I said 60-20-20, unless the Thai creative thinking thread involves starting thread like this to get ideas from other parts of the world if this will work or not. I am beginning to see unless some details are given by the Thais in the initial announcement, chances are there is little or no substance other than just the first step that is to say they are going to do something but have not a clue as how to execute it.

[Pattaya_Fox]

As I said 60-20-20, unless the Thai creative thinking thread involves starting thread like this to get ideas from other parts of the world if this will work or not. I am beginning to see unless some details are given by the Thais in the initial announcement, chances are there is little or no substance other than just the first step that is to say they are going to do something but have not a clue as how to execute it.

The way to do it would be to form a department which would deal with the record checking and whose personell would liase with similar departments in other countries. They would create a reciprocal arrangement programme and store and pass information. The data protection laws of various countries may have to be adjusted to facilitate this.

People applying for teaching jobs would not be granted work permits until background checks and qualification checks were complete.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Excellent idea; that kind of thing would be best for the degree/qualification checking, too. Doubt it will be created or get funding or staff who are well-educated or competent or English-fluent enough to make it a reality, though.

[toptuan]

I think they are going to screen the prospective teachers for Toxin sympathizers too.

...and when they find 'em, they'll promptly ship 'em to Isaan for immediate employment!

[Ijustwannateach]

[lannabull]

Funny how in the midst of the "crackdown" you can still buy fake university degree's and tefl certs on koe san road..

[John K]

As I said 60-20-20, unless the Thai creative thinking thread involves starting thread like this to get ideas from other parts of the world if this will work or not. I am beginning to see unless some details are given by the Thais in the initial announcement, chances are there is little or no substance other than just the first step that is to say they are going to do something but have not a clue as how to execute it.

The way to do it would be to form a department which would deal with the record checking and whose personell would liase with similar departments in other countries. They would create a reciprocal arrangement programme and store and pass information. The data protection laws of various countries may have to be adjusted to facilitate this.

People applying for teaching jobs would not be granted work permits until background checks and qualification checks were complete.

But you overlooked one flaw... Thai time. That means no teachers for the first several months. Being Thais they don’t look for teachers very far before they need them. Add to that work permits, visas and my oh my way too much time.

Data protection laws are partially to protect people from identity theft. So giving that information to a country that is notorious for making copies of everything from jeans to music, to programs..... have you flown in a lead balloon lately ....60-20-20

[sheppy47]

CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK

Just to throw a spanner in the works.

A criminal background check in the UK has to be done by the prospective employer.

YOU CANNOT DO IT YOURSELF.

It will also take up to 3 months to obtain their words.

You can obtain what is called a Disclosure which is a very basic check and will take about 3 weeks if you are in the UK.

So now add to that a Thai school having to apply for this and it becomes almost a non starter.

Then add the time it will take them if they do agree to do it.

I had to go back to the UK to get my paperwork in order.

All i can say is good luck.

Shep

[sheppy47]

CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK

Just to throw a spanner in the works.

A criminal background check in the UK has to be done by the prospective employer.

YOU CANNOT DO IT YOURSELF.

It will also take up to 3 months to obtain their words.

You can obtain what is called a Disclosure which is a very basic check and will take about 3 weeks if you are in the UK.

So now add to that a Thai school having to apply for this and it becomes almost a non starter.

Then add the time it will take them if they do agree to do it.

I had to go back to the UK to get my paperwork in order.

All i can say is good luck.

Shep

[Casanundra]

As I said 60-20-20, unless the Thai creative thinking thread involves starting thread like this to get ideas from other parts of the world if this will work or not. I am beginning to see unless some details are given by the Thais in the initial announcement, chances are there is little or no substance other than just the first step that is to say they are going to do something but have not a clue as how to execute it.

The way to do it would be to form a department which would deal with the record checking and whose personell would liase with similar departments in other countries. They would create a reciprocal arrangement programme and store and pass information. The data protection laws of various countries may have to be adjusted to facilitate this.

People applying for teaching jobs would not be granted work permits until background checks and qualification checks were complete.

But you overlooked one flaw... Thai time. That means no teachers for the first several months. Being Thais they don’t look for teachers very far before they need them. Add to that work permits, visas and my oh my way too much time.

Data protection laws are partially to protect people from identity theft. So giving that information to a country that is notorious for making copies of everything from jeans to music, to programs..... have you flown in a lead balloon lately ....60-20-20

The data protection laws don't need to be changed because they already have a level of felxibility built into them to allow Trans Border Data Flows to countries that have adequate data protection laws in place. As long as these countries can show that they can provide data security and protection of the data being transferred under the governance of the 8 eight rules as sepecified in the DPA 1998 then it should be ok. In the case of the USA it is for any company who has signed up to the safe habour bill. Of course there are always ways to overcome sending personal information to a country without adequate protection.

The problem with Thailand though, is that although Thailand have signed up to and ratified themselves in 1997 to the UN 's declaration of human rights bill of 1948 to 1998 to ensure some level of privacy protection, they don't currently have any privacy laws in place to ensure adequate protection of data being transferred over and therefore this in itself would be the main stumbling block.

You could of course give your consent to send over confidential and private information about yourself and that's your own call to make. The problem of course is that you as an individual would be giving away any rights for protection on what they do with that information and who is to say that the Thai authorities won't then abuse that information once they have it. Where for example, do you think the copy degree templates for all of the popular universities came from for the fake degrees in the first place.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Casanundra

[Casanundra]

CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK

Just to throw a spanner in the works.

A criminal background check in the UK has to be done by the prospective employer.

YOU CANNOT DO IT YOURSELF.

It will also take up to 3 months to obtain their words.

You can obtain what is called a Disclosure which is a very basic check and will take about 3 weeks if you are in the UK.

So now add to that a Thai school having to apply for this and it becomes almost a non starter.

Then add the time it will take them if they do agree to do it.

I had to go back to the UK to get my paperwork in order.

All i can say is good luck.

Shep

Unless things have changed recently then this is bumpkin. I did mine last year by contacting my last local constabulary, who then sent me a form by e-mail and once completed I sent it off with a cheque for 10 squids and some notorised ID and 6 weeks later I received a police report back telling me that 'I basically didn't have one'.

To prove my point here is the link from the Leicestershire Police website:

http://www.leics.police.uk/library/3_forms/

Look for the title: Application for previous convictions, cautions and prosecutions

It says: This form can be used to apply for details of previous convictions, cautions and prosecutions that are held by Leicestershire Constabulary (required for employment and immigration purposes).

Before doing the run-a-round, I would suggest you check the website of your last local cop shop first.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Casanundra

[John K]

That all comes back full circle to money. If they pay more getting qualified people will be easier. Still supply and demand at work here. In the last several months that Thais have more or less shot themselves in the foot. 90/180 visa law, background checks, low pay. Also take note when this little announcement came out, finials are underway and they wont need new teachers for about 70 days or so. By that time this thread will be on page 60 or so and a distant memory.

[lordsux]

I'd say that most of the illegal teachers like myself are far better persons than most of the b!tches on this forum that love to rip the teachers apart at every chance they get. At least most of us earn an honest living and even give something back to the country that we live in.

I totally agree that there should be stringent screening of teachers, but please don't tar everyone that teaches with the same brush, there are many decent people teaching illegally without teaching qualifications that do a very good job. And of course there are those with a degree in motor mechanics that can be legal teachers that do an awful job.

What is needed in Thailand is an evaluation exam and several test classes to prove the ability of prospective teachers, and not something set up by some mickey mouse falang company that jump on an opportunity to make some money here in Thailand.

Sure thing, if I get a better job offer then i'd take it, but at the moment my job is teaching and I give it 110%, I enjoy the work, I like the kids and I see their grades improving, that gives me job satisfaction and a sense self worth. Something that is missing in many falangs here in Thailand

The government are cracking down on the wrong people IMHO.