Jealousy

[tatom]

I live in Issaan and am interested in Buddhism. I work and visit at several local temples and enjoy talking to the monks. At one of my favorite temples, the abbot is very young (about 40), very intelligent and well educated, and in my opinion, a very good man. Ive known him for several years. He is very good at answering my questions. A few years back, I told him I was puzzeled about something. The Buddha said there are 4 states of consiousness we should all cultivate. One of these states of consiousness is, in Pali, "muddita", or sympathetic joy, meaning, we should be happy at others good fortune. I asked why this trivial matter would be included with the other very important ones. I said, "why wouldnt anyone be happy to see others have good luck? ". He told me, " oh, muddita is a very difficult thing for Thai people." He explained that Thais are very jealous and that it can lead to resentment and even hate. Some examples he gave were, if a person won the lottery, his friends, neighbors, even family, would be jealous. He also said, he knew of a man of modest means, whose son did well in life and became rich. The father came to hate the son for being more successful in life the he. I spoke with my wife about this and have kept it in mind when observing peoples behaviour and find this to be true. Dont misunderstand, I dont mean to find another "fault" with our Thai brothers and sisters. I just try to use this in helping me to understand the seemingly vast differances in our cultures. I think if we understand each other, we can live together more harmoniously. There is another state of consiousness that is very difficult to farangs, but comes quite easily to Thais. It is "uppeca" or equnimity, the ability to keep a composed mind under stressful situations. I would imagine it is quite evedent to Thai people when farangs lack "uppeca". As for the jealousy, I have seen it cause big problems, even in my wifes family. Perhaps others have, or have not noticed it...?

[phazey]

My first thought was:

paragraphs...... ?

My second, did you by any chance mix up jealousy with envy ?

My third, how can a family be jealous of the better doings of it's offspring, surely thats the point of parenthood - to bring up someone who will better the parents......

...i hope my nipper does better than me, and i hope my experiance can ware off on him......

[tatom]

Phazey, Youre 100% right! As for paragraphs and envy, what can I say? Im a dumbell and admit it. See, Im trying to start a new paragraph, no luck. I mentioned to Loung Paw that we in the west, do all we can to see that our children have a better life than we did. He said in Thailand, its not nessesarily so. Youve made my point. By implying our way is better, it makes that gap between "us" and "them".

[Boon Mee]

As good 'ol Rudyard Kipling said: East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet" holds true to this day. All we can hope for as Farang in Thailand is to have a good life and not to worry about how we'll never understand...

[wolf5370]

Yep, Phazey it's envy.

However, jealousy is a real thing for those of us with a Thai Mrs/GF. I've been happily married for 6 years (and unhappily for...no only joking) - never strayed, never gone BG-ing - Wifey is from middle-class LoS family (does that exist?) and never been to a bar or tasted alcohol. Yet, if a woman walks past and I'm looking in the general direction, she is instant with the accusations that I was staring at her/them (or parts there of!). I am sure she'd be happy if I walked in to every lamp post and got hit by every speeding bike-taxi as long as I wasn't looking in the direction of anything with a different chromazone layout!

Most Thai's I know would love there kids to be more succesful than them - we send our kids to an exceptional school because my wife wants them to accomplish and exceed her (she was a teacher, now a full time mum).

Buddhism teaches us that all life is suffering, and that anxiety causes all suffering. Therefore, wanting or expecting your kids to excel is wrong thinking (check out the ten fold path to the four noble truths). Maybe this is what you are hearing. Think of it in the same vein as Chinese parents calling their kids ugly so as to keep 'spirits' that would take beautiful kids away, at bay. That what is said, may not equal that which is felt.

PS: Sorry if my spelling/grammar has gone to pot - I'm under the affluence of incahol (or something like that - hic! )

[Axel]

PS: Sorry if my spelling/grammar has gone to pot - I'm under the affluence of incahol (or something like that - hic! )

In vino veritas!

Actually, I am not sure, if your comments are allohol inflatulented or something like that -

But very nice comment, straight down to what I feel is the way it goes. You managed to pack in a few lines, what is very difficult to put in words.

[RDN]

However, jealousy is a real thing for those of us with a Thai Mrs/GF.

I should think EVERY farang has a story to tell about "jealousy"! In fact, my Thai g/f has just looked at me accusingly because she found a number in my phone that she didn't know - I tried to explain that it was the SMS message centre number, but she's gone off to bed in a huff!

P.S. Anyone know where I can get Marmite in Phuket - George keeps killing these threads 'cos they're "not Thailand related"! How do you work that one out George (and how many times before I get kicked off?)

[Padkapow Guy]

However, jealousy is a real thing for those of us with a Thai Mrs/GF.

I should think EVERY farang has a story to tell about "jealousy"! In fact, my Thai g/f has just looked at me accusingly because she found a number in my phone that she didn't know - I tried to explain that it was the SMS message centre number, but she's gone off to bed in a huff!

P.S. Anyone know where I can get Marmite in Phuket - George keeps killing these threads 'cos they're "not Thailand related"! How do you work that one out George (and how many times before I get kicked off?)

I can't help with the Marmite.(not sure what it is) I am guessing food of some kind.

Anyway back to the jealous thai women. I did not know there was any other kind.

There are @ 15 to 20 Thai women in our area in the states, and I can tell you for a fact they are all jealous of each other including my wife. I tried for years to break her of the trait but have had no luck. I wonder why they call themselves friends with each other, because as soon as one leaves the others talk crap about her. I have yet to meet a Thai lady who is not jealous. I am sure I will here from posters who will tell me different but until I meet one I can not believe it.

[DeDanan]

In my limited experience of Thai parent / child relationship, The parent wants the best for their kids and to set them up for life properly. The more successful the children the better position they will be in to take care of the parents as time goes on.

I think that envy is in all cultures I certainly know it is in mine. Most families have a cretin amount of sibling rivalry, particularly among sisters! Or sister’s in law!!

Buddhism is the pursuit of happiness, but not by traditional means or standards. Personally I think the core teaching is that nothing is “Permanent” so we can be happy in the “now”. This is why many Thai people don’t plan / save /think too far into the future.

To think Buddhism is about “suffering” is like thinking that Christianity is about “sin”.

Thankfully my girlfriend is not over the top on the jealousy bit, we have had our rows about it, but she has no problem with me looking as long as I am not drooling.

But how many of us would be impressed if our GF was eyeing up some other farang while in our company?

Wolf is right! Its time for a pint and as we say in Ireland “Fxxx the Begrudgers “

Have a Happy…

DeDanan

[Snark]

deleted

[DeDanan]

Hi Totom, Snark and anyone else with an open mind,

I am a new comer to Buddhism and have many questions and ideas / views. Is it time the Admin’ opened a Forum on Buddhism? Come on Dr Pat & George et al ..

Have a Happy…

DeDanan

[Snark]

deleted

[DeDanan]

Ok Snark,

I don’t want to match with’s with you. I just wish to open a forum where us mere mortals can discuss Buddhism in an open way, with out any condescending.

Lets have a open Q&A Forum for anyone with a interest in Buddhism.

Have a Happy…

DeDanan.

[stroll]

Snark is a fast typer, indeed. Your posts weren't 'bad' at all. Pity you deleted them.

I am all for a forum on Buddhism, if we can keep the Marmite posters out.

[DeDanan]

Snark,

What’s the story with the "Deleted"?

Let us all who have an interest in Buddhism have our say, there will be enough gobshites who will try to knock us.

Yours

DeDanan

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Anyone can open a new topic. Buddhism is worth discussing ( and more interesting than Marmite ) Go for it

[Simbo]

I think'Snark was trying to tell us the only place in Thailand where one can buy Marmite and the powers that be don't want a panic marmite buying spree, causing a world shortage and price spiral, or he wants it all to himself.

[Axel]

However, jealousy is a real thing for those of us with a Thai Mrs/GF.

I should think EVERY farang has a story to tell about "jealousy"! In fact, my Thai g/f has just looked at me accusingly because she found a number in my phone that she didn't know - I tried to explain that it was the SMS message centre number, but she's gone off to bed in a huff!

P.S. Anyone know where I can get Marmite in Phuket - George keeps killing these threads 'cos they're "not Thailand related"! How do you work that one out George (and how many times before I get kicked off?)

Right you are, I had one, just one, name in my address book

"Cathay"

Took me quite some time until she called the number to find out, it was in deed Cathay Pacific Airline.

Be careful with your question where to buy Marmite in Phuket.

Your G/f might misunderstand as 'Mermaid'.

[wolf5370]

DeDanan,

Four Noble Truths:

1. "To live is to suffer - sorrow is the universal experience of mankind"

2. "Suffering is caused by craving, attachment and desire"

3. "The removal of sorrow can only come from the removal of desire"

4. "Desire can be systematically abandoned by following the noble 8 fold path"

Noble 8 fold path: Right understanding, right mindedness, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right attentiveness and right concentration.

So, suffering - or the removal of - is the core of Buddhism. True, Buddha said that nothing is perminant; this was part of his explanation as to why desire leads to anxiety, leads to suffering.

PS: Like the idea of a Buddhist forum - 95% of Thais are Buddhist, so even non-Buddhists need to know the answers to some questions - and we can discuss this sort of thing (above).

[appleman_thai]

I went thru a stage of real thirst to learn more and more about buddhism when I arrived here about 3 years ago. I bought all the books and read up as much as I could.

All was going well until I tried the meditation part...... i just couldnt clear my mind. All I could think of was how much my legs were hurting as I suffered in the lotus position. Then the pins and needles started..... and all the time this was supposed to be relaxing me??!?!?

Anyway, buddhism sure as ###### beats the crap out of what the current Pope is preaching about..... although IMHO Buddhism is more a way of life rather than a religion. Maybe Catholicism started out like that but somewhere in the last few decades it really has lost its way.

As for jealousy of thai women..... "nail on the head"...... and thats what the GF thinks as well....... unreal.... their imagination goes beyond all reasonable thoughts..... like I fancy my Best Friends wife who I know for years and they have 2 kids!!..... Get real..... but thats life living with a Thai!

Good times with the bad..... grass is always greener and as De Dannan rightly says - <deleted> the begrudgers.....

[sonthaya]

Yes, let's have the story about "deleted"

[Bluecat]

The father came to hate the son for being more successful in life the he.

That's close to impossible.

Any father wants his son to be MORE successful than him.

Wasn't it a bit of indoctrination?

Or maybe convincing himself that he chose the right way by being a monk and "forgetting" about his fellow Thai shortcomings?

Not too sure but not as convinced as you are of the rightfullness of the beliefs, anyway,... (I can write hundred of examples of the same speech by people from many different religions,...)

[wolf5370]

Appleman_Thai,

you don't have to sit in a lotus to meditate. Sit comfortably, but try to keep your back straight - and try not to sit in a position that is likely to induce sleep!

There are two main types of Thai Theravada meditation:

First one, find a quiet place/time and sit (comfortably as above) with your eyes closed and listen to your breathing. In-Out-In-Out do not try to change your breathing, just listen to it. Do this for 10-15 minutes a day at first, no more. At some point you will find you are less and less distracted by sudden outside noises. You will feel your body swaying, although it is not. You may even get to hear/feel the vibration of, your blooding being pumped around your body. Thsi is called stage 3 - there are 7 (or 9 depending on who you talk to) stages. Most never get beyond 3. At stage 4, you will 'come around' feeling slightly euphoric/high and happy. I have reached beyond that, but some may - and many monks aim to and do.

Second one, (note I find this extreamly hard) use a noisy environment. Begin as the first above, but when a noise, feeling (wind, car passing eyc) or site (reflection of sun hits your eyelids etc) then switch to concentrate on that - do not try to listen tou works (if someone talking etc), just recognise that it is talking, then switch back to your breathing. Like I said, I find this very difficult to get in to a medative state with, but this how I've been instructed.

Good luck.

PS: You don't have to follow Buddhism (or nay religion) to meditate.

BlueCat. I lost you with

Or maybe convincing himself that he chose the right way by being a monk and "forgetting" about his fellow Thai shortcomings?

Did you mean "fellow Thais' shortcomings" or his shortcommings as a Thai ?

[drummer]

All was going well until I tried the meditation part...... i just couldnt clear my mind. All I could think of was how much my legs were hurting as I suffered in the lotus position. Then the pins and needles started..... and all the time this was supposed to be relaxing me??!?!?

Anyway, buddhism sure as ###### beats the crap out of what the current Pope is preaching about..... although IMHO Buddhism is more a way of life rather than a religion. Maybe Catholicism started out like that but somewhere in the last few decades it really has lost its way.

I think the current line by the Catholics is entirely expected, given its illustrious history.

Re: meditation ... There is some very interesting secular research being done on it at the moment, and it seems to be an extremely powerful, effective method of making yourself a happier person. There is a pilot secular meditation program for schoolchildren in the US that is underway now. The initial results are very encouraging ... i.e. grades, attendance, attentiveness up, violence etc down.

That being said, there are many different types of meditation, and most involve getting yourself into a relaxed position. I'm a big fan of meditation myself, but I have never been able to get myself into a lotus poisition to begin with! But many only rquire that you are confortable.

Even the catholics have meditation .... saying 100 "Hail Mary"s absolutely qualifies.

[Crash999]

He told me, " oh, muddita is a very difficult thing for Thai people." He explained that Thais are very jealous and that it can lead to resentment and even hate.

I think 'muddita' is a very difficult thing for many people, not just Thais. Don't have to dig deep in Western societies to uncover aggression, greed, and envy.