How To Approach A Thai If You Think They Are Lying?

[qwertz]

There's a difference in not telling the truth and lying!

A truth that's told with bad intent

Beats any lie you may invent. My Mother

[jamman]

There's a difference in not telling the truth and lying!

A truth that's told with bad intent

Beats any lie you may invent. My Mother

In the Philippines I often heard of ill intentioned gossip that was pure fiction, meant to destroy the reputation and relationships of others.

I like the rhythm of your Mom's rhyme, and appreciate that bad intent is bad, but other than that it seems contorted.

[jamman]

Maybe I (and some others here) were raised wrong, in a Western civilization in which "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." A society where a relentless search for truth often fixes blame and causes people to lose face, or be damaged (or lose a lawsuit). Sometimes, you shouldn't tell all the truth. And what good is the truth, if you can't DO something good with it? If Sasacha burned the bacon, will blaming her make the bacon taste better? If we blame her and shame her in front of other Thais, she may start burning the bacon out of spite!

What do Thais think of farang who consistently tell the truth far more than the locals do? Do we at first appear a bit stupid, but eventually acquire a positive reputation as a non-liar, if we're careful not to speak all the truth?

Thai , who are predominately Buddhist, well know that lieing is wrong. "Do not lie" is one of the 5 Precepts of Buddhism. Deception and falsehoods inevitibly create a cycle of disorder and ill will. In many societies, there are those who benefit from such a condition. So it continues.

Thais are predominantly Buddhist and well know the 5 precepts. That is a very strict concept that doesn't quite reflect the reality in the field. Thai Buddhism of the masses, as it is understood and practiced, is miles away from the old Theravadin Buddhist scriptures. It is more of a cultural identity, really. Thais don't meditate, for instance, which is the foundation of Buddhism. You can't actually be a real Buddhist and not meditate.

Not even the monks meditate. They have a social and cultural structure that references Buddhism, but they are not Buddhist.

And I'm not being sectarian when I say that. Buddhism is not an ideology that affords for an infinite number of interpretations. There are fundamentals to it required for the practice to be properly labelled as Buddhist or even Buddhist like. And Buddhism is a practice, not a set of beliefs.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jamman

[qwertz]

There's a difference in not telling the truth and lying!

A truth that's told with bad intent

Beats any lie you may invent. My Mother

In the Philippines I often heard of ill intentioned gossip that was pure fiction, meant to destroy the reputation and relationships of others.

I like the rhythm of your Mom's rhyme, and appreciate that bad intent is bad, but other than that it seems contorted.

Sorry, too late to take it up with mum, she's no longer with us, may she rest in peace. But I think I remember her saying she plagiarised it in part from William Blake. Honest to a fault was mum, I miss those pearls of wisdom .

[OlRedEyes]

because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

seeing events through a very loaded telescope....something I believe we all do.

I don't think it fair to judge most Thais as "immature" or "face-savers" based on your own empirically small sample and the stories of others who may be carrying prejudicial attitudes....which would account for the "patterns" you are seeing here. It could also be that your own perceptions are tinged with a cultural bias,

Your first two statements are sweeping generalisations, which I for one know is patently untrue. The third admonishes a poster for doing the same thing you just did, twice. Except he never said 'all'.

Being able to step outside of your own bias, cultural or otherwise, is quite possible, once you realise the damage you can do to yourself by clouding your judgement with these biases. And the gain in effectiveness and opportunity that opens up once you have cultivated the ability to do so.

But as always, obfuscation - sorry for the repeated use of the word but it does the best job of describing what I mean - will continue until reason retreats into silence, much like a Fox 'discussion' where the one thats shouts the loudest and longest believes they win the argument.

I retire to the Last word, Hot bum, I have nothing to say threads.

well, that let you off the hook of backing your "truth" claims, didn't it?

To answer your points: yes, I did generalise in the statement that we "all" depend on to some extent on the good opinions of others. Guilty as charged.

In the second statement I made it very clear that this was my opinion, not a general statement, by using the words "I believe". Ditto in the suggestions to Jamman, I did not "admonish him" so much as suggest that he may have been generalising from insufficient evidence, as indeed i did myself. You are quite correct.

I have no desire to "win" any argument. This is a discussion, and I take it seriously enough to answer anyone who I think has made a good or contestable point.

No, I have no desire to be 'let off the hook'. There is no gain in running away from any real intellectual discussion. I have no 'face' to lose. But to be drawn into a circular discussion with someone sprouting confused (note, not confusing) bullshite is non-productive, and will never go anywhere. Don't put too much store into a masters degree. It doesn't give you anything but face, unless you utilise it for the sake of real knowledge, in which case muddying the waters with 'bullshit baffles brains' is counterproductive. I left mine behind long time ago. I say this simply to pre-empt a superficial retort of am I jealous or something similar.

Ever hear of the kiss principle? I'm sure you have. It's a good principle.

[fruittbatt]

No, I have no desire to be 'let off the hook'. There is no gain in running away from any real intellectual discussion. I have no 'face' to lose. But to be drawn into a circular discussion with someone sprouting confused (note, not confusing) bullshite is non-productive, and will never go anywhere. Don't put too much store into a masters degree. It doesn't give you anything but face, unless you utilise it for the sake of real knowledge, in which case muddying the waters with 'bullshit baffles brains' is counterproductive. I left mine behind long time ago. I say this simply to pre-empt a superficial retort of am I jealous or something similar.

Ever hear of the kiss principle? I'm sure you have. It's a good principle.

OlRedEyes, in seeking the perhaps impossible quest for "truth" I believe there is a place for both simplicity and complexity of thought.

On TV, many posts are of the knee-jerk reaction variety. A minority of posters speaks with insight and an inclusive world view. I write for those who may be prepared to consider what I have to say, even if it is not always crystal clear or conflicts with their own views.

[qwertz]

No, I have no desire to be 'let off the hook'. There is no gain in running away from any real intellectual discussion. I have no 'face' to lose. But to be drawn into a circular discussion with someone sprouting confused (note, not confusing) bullshite is non-productive, and will never go anywhere. Don't put too much store into a masters degree. It doesn't give you anything but face, unless you utilise it for the sake of real knowledge, in which case muddying the waters with 'bullshit baffles brains' is counterproductive. I left mine behind long time ago. I say this simply to pre-empt a superficial retort of am I jealous or something similar.

Ever hear of the kiss principle? I'm sure you have. It's a good principle.

OlRedEyes, in seeking the perhaps impossible quest for "truth" I believe there is a place for both simplicity and complexity of thought.

On TV, many posts are of the knee-jerk reaction variety. A minority of posters speaks with insight and an inclusive world view. I write for those who may be prepared to consider what I have to say, even if it is not always crystal clear or conflicts with their own views.

If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything later. (my Mother)

Edited February 20, 2007 by qwertz

[Tyree D.]

you say in a Cookie Monster voice:

GOHOK

MAI OWW KII TII NII!

MAI SHUEA

YET MEUNG (don't say that!!!!!)

That means I'm not taking this <deleted>, here's the Sex Pistols.

I miss arguing with Thai lady.

I like to say "Mai mii kansuuksa" (you are uneducated)

If you don't mind getting kicked in the balls, take my bad advice.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Tyree D.

[0Mix1up]

on qwertz track and the kiss priciple......

Its hard to get caught out telling the truth.

[Demodokos]

Woww...

"Truth is the only way"

"Truth make the life better"

Some people would have to create a religion in Thailand: The Church of the Thruth's Light.

And you could tell all this Thai fools: "Come back to light and give up this life of lies, tell the whole truth!!"

I can understand that lies are a big problem at "office" and that confronting liars to their lies at work can be very important because of responsabilities.

But in other places, what is the point to confront liar to his lie? If you know he is lying and he knows it obviously, why would you have to confront him to prouf of lie? Does it make you feel better? Does it make you feel like winning a game? Do you feel like a police officer when suspect admits his crime? Do you feel like a Truth warrior?

I think if you know someone who lies, you just know that he does not deserve confidence, that is all.

It seems to me that some people think that western moral standards are better because truth had a better value. And it seems that making a thai person admit his lie will make him more "good" and that will change his life. I don't know where they live, but in my country, western one, lies are everywhere and people don't admit them easily.

Why people are always trying to change things that don't match their beliefs?

And for the ones who think that confronting liar with their lies are a good thing, go tell Bush and Blair that they were lying about massive destruction weapons.

Someone said that truth is more important in western countries? I don't think so.

[backflip]

As we all found out during the legal proceedings of Bill Clinton's impeachment, "not all lying under oath is perjury".

[Maizefarmer]

If it doesn't concern you in any way then best just to do nothing at all.

If it does concern you, believe me, the values associated with honesty and dishonesty are as valid in Thai society as they are in Western society. "Loss of face" defence for lack of a better word, is more often than not used as an excuse to avoid a mutlitude of responsibilities guilty Thai's know full well they should account for.

Sounds a bit dramatic, can't think of better wording - the point is, handle it much as you would handle a similar situation in Western society.

Lying and dishonesty is lying and dishonesty - in any society.

... of course I should add, best you establish the facts diplomaticaly before you put your foot in it so to speak - as it stands at the moment if I understand you correctly, you have a suspicion - it is not an established fact.

MF

When it comes to Thai's I know that "face" is very important.

I have strong suspision I am getting told porkies after recieving an SMS message that obviously wasnt meant for me. Not sure the best way of asking them about it is so they will not loose face.

Any ideas?

Edited February 21, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[Furbie]

My partner and I ran into a professional Thai acquaintance the other day, who proceeded to tell us bald-faced lies to our surprised, smiling faces. We didn't press the point, and we parted company as if no lies had been told. You cannot proceed to 'the truth' which doesn't exist, and you can't accuse them of 'lies' they haven't told. Proceed as if the conversation never took place, as if you have no information on which to extend the relationship.

Here, far more than 'back home' the truth does not matter, or is not the same. Mai bpen rai. But in business dealings, caveat emptor.

Well my wife (south thailand/half chinese) is usually shouting "go hok" what means something like "fake" in my opinion, than something with "sad" what should mean something like "animal" comes and than the longer part that such people are the reason that thailand is going down/the culture/skills/society.........

Imagine how many friends we have.....

i hear you man, my ex gf used to shout "go hok, e sat " or " go hok a here farang" when i would fall into the apartment after a night out with my buddies, crazy times not sure what she was trying to say

go hok ai sut - liar animal - you f*#king liar

go hok ai heah farang - liar (no word in english) foreigner - you pr*ck (or I can't even print the worse version here) foreigner

hope this clears up the thai slang for you,

Soundman.

What is interesting is that he wrote: "go hok, e sat" as "ee" is the nasty way to address a woman, not a man, while "ai" would more accurately be directed at a man.

I would leave a woman who spoke this way to me - about as insulting as you can get in Thai.

Next time a GF does this to you, call her an "ee heah" and see her reaction.

[soundman]

My partner and I ran into a professional Thai acquaintance the other day, who proceeded to tell us bald-faced lies to our surprised, smiling faces. We didn't press the point, and we parted company as if no lies had been told. You cannot proceed to 'the truth' which doesn't exist, and you can't accuse them of 'lies' they haven't told. Proceed as if the conversation never took place, as if you have no information on which to extend the relationship.

Here, far more than 'back home' the truth does not matter, or is not the same. Mai bpen rai. But in business dealings, caveat emptor.

Well my wife (south thailand/half chinese) is usually shouting "go hok" what means something like "fake" in my opinion, than something with "sad" what should mean something like "animal" comes and than the longer part that such people are the reason that thailand is going down/the culture/skills/society.........

Imagine how many friends we have.....

i hear you man, my ex gf used to shout "go hok, e sat " or " go hok a here farang" when i would fall into the apartment after a night out with my buddies, crazy times not sure what she was trying to say

go hok ai sut - liar animal - you f*#king liar

go hok ai heah farang - liar (no word in english) foreigner - you pr*ck (or I can't even print the worse version here) foreigner

hope this clears up the thai slang for you,

Soundman.

What is interesting is that he wrote: "go hok, e sat" as "ee" is the nasty way to address a woman, not a man, while "ai" would more accurately be directed at a man.

I would leave a woman who spoke this way to me - about as insulting as you can get in Thai.

Next time a GF does this to you, call her an "ee heah" and see her reaction.

I would be very careful of using the above "phrases" in any context if you are not entirely sure of the spoken uses/situations.

Especially the first one. As pointed out above, it is probably the worst insult in the Thai vocabulary.

Think of how the equivalents are used in English. Around mates OK. Not to be used in most other situations.

Soundman.

[faranggl]

The last great Nigerian philosopher, Sven Corlioni, once said,

" A lie is not a lie when perceived as the truth and the truth is not the truth when perceived as a lie".

[qwertz]

on qwertz track and the kiss priciple......

Its hard to get caught out telling the truth.

Turkish proverb: Always have one foot in the stirrup before you speak the truth.

[soundman]

As we all found out during the legal proceedings of Bill Clinton's impeachment, "not all lying under oath is perjury".

Has anybody noticed that in the courts here, the prosecution will only go forward on actual evidence. Nobody here gets convicted on other peoples sworn testimonies.

eyewitness - "I saw so and so steal the diaper"

Judge - "Does the stock count reflect this?

eyewitness - "I don't know"

Judge - "Strike that last comment from the record - the eyewitness may stand down"

Maybe a person's word in asia is not really their bond. Go figure.

Soundman.