UK PM May urges devolved nations to back her Brexit deal

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, because you (like me) think that MPs are intelligent, knowledgeable and not at all interested in their own personal financial interests.....  Except you've admitted that you too think otherwise!

 

Which is why I'm at a loss at to why you still think MPs should be the deciding factor?

 

Surely not because they are looking to their own self-interest, and so support your POV?? ????

That is the constitution

 

You don't like it? Change it!

 

Most MPs are pro Remain obviously. However many fear doing their job and instead prefer to follow the majority of their constituents to protect their seats no matter the damage to the country nor the stupidity of their constituents.

 

BTW, Corbyn cares damn all about the country; he just wants power. Evil.

[Enoon]

7 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

Over 17 million Brits disagree with you.

 

UK population 2018:

 

66.57 million.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

That is the constitution

 

You don't like it? Change it!

 

Most MPs are pro Remain obviously. However many fear doing their job and instead prefer to follow the majority of their constituents to protect their seats no matter the damage to the country nor the stupidity of their constituents.

 

BTW, Corbyn cares damn all about the country; he just wants power. Evil.

I'm looking forward to the day when I can change brit. politics ????.

 

Meanwhile, like most others (including yourself), I trust politicians as far as I can throw them and (like yourself), know that they are unintelligent, self-interested, power hungry and greedy people - only looking out for themselves - certainly not their constituents....

 

When it comes to "evil", I reserve that for anyone who cares more about lining their own pockets than those they are supposed to be representing - plus (of course) the obviously evil that are mentally damaged and enjoy hurting others.

[dick dasterdly]

42 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

May is certainly racking up the pressure with her latest ploy of "preparing" for a no-deal Brexit.  3,500 troops on standby and sending a letter to every business warning them to prepare for the fallout etc. etc.  She is enthusiastically practicing project fear now in the hope it will give MPs no choice but to vote for her deal.  By delaying the vote to late January she leaves little time for any other options.  It's a strategy that might work but could easily backfire.  Maybe she feels now she has nothing to lose.  She will be handing over anyway so if the UK is screwed why should she care. 

Agree entirely with your first para.

 

Why on earth is she talking about the army being needed, other than as a part of project fear??

 

I only differ insofar as this latest project fear nonsense may give MPs the hope that their constituents will believe the propaganda, and so they hope that they can support her 'non-deal' without losing their seats.

 

Personally, I doubt it.  Surely no-one is that stupid?

[Enoon]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But this thread is about the devolved nations. My country voted 62/38 to remain in the EU. Since then, polling has shown that support in Scotland for remaining in the EU has risen to 74%. I am more than happy for the English to have whatever flavour of Brexit they wish for, but the vast majority of my countrymen want nothing to do with it. More power to Sturgeon's elbow - she is the only politician in the UK showing conviction, consistency and leadership.

 

Currently reading a book (not dealing specifically with this issue) describing the decision to leave being made by an "Anglo-Welsh" vote.

 

The first duty of a leader/leaders is to maintain/create unity within their nation.

 

The startlingly extreme opposite of which has been the result of this folly.

 

 

 

 

[Nigel Garvie]

5 hours ago, IssanMichael said:

Its too late, Cameron said he would let the people decide in a simple referendum   "to stay or leave" the people voted leave thats it F*** remainers lost deal with it.

 

I'm not a grammar fascist, however not inserting an ..."ing", at the end of your partially deleted expletive does make this sophisticated post read rather poorly!

 

Maybe the "Just leave brigade" have forsworn facts since Gove advised them to do that, but this cannot make comfortable reading for anyone.

BBC - Todays news 19/12 with 100 days to go before the UK leaves the EU.............

In a joint statement, the British Chambers of Commerce, the Confederation of British Industry, manufacturers' organisation the EEF, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Directors said: "Businesses have been watching in horror as politicians have focused on factional disputes rather than practical steps that business needs to move forward."

The groups say that "The idea that "No deal" can be managed is not credible"

Wow - all of them - where is Farage, where are his soundbites,  when you want someone to help you believe that none of this matters!

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Enoon said:

 

Currently reading a book (not dealing specifically with this issue) describing the decision to leave being made by an "Anglo-Welsh" vote.

 

The first duty of a leader/leaders is to maintain/create unity within their nation.

 

The startlingly extreme opposite of which has been the result of this folly.

 

 

 

 

I disagree entirely.

 

It's very easy to maintain/create unity within a nation - as shown by many leaders that have somehow managed to ignite patriotism amongst their tribes/religious denominations/countries......

 

Brexit perhaps shows a shadow of this, but hardly suprising in the circumstances.

 

The more important point is that there are so many things wrong with the eu and their policies - but they are determined to not reform the many faults ☹️.

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I'm not a grammar fascist, however not inserting an ..."ing", at the end of your partially deleted expletive does make this sophisticated post read rather poorly!

 

Maybe the "Just leave brigade" have forsworn facts since Gove advised them to do that, but this cannot make comfortable reading for anyone.

BBC - Todays news 19/12 with 100 days to go before the UK leaves the EU.............

In a joint statement, the British Chambers of Commerce, the Confederation of British Industry, manufacturers' organisation the EEF, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Directors said: "Businesses have been watching in horror as politicians have focused on factional disputes rather than practical steps that business needs to move forward."

The groups say that "The idea that "No deal" can be managed is not credible"

Wow - all of them - where is Farage, where are his soundbites,  when you want someone to help you believe that none of this matters!

You're not a "grammar fascist" but then go on to criticise the grammar....

 

You're suprised that the business organisations are against brexit?  Weird, as I'm not at all suprised.

 

Perhaps you would prefer that GEs and referendums only consisted of business institution votes?  
Forget ordinary people - let business institutions vote.  It would certainly result in consistency of govts.!

 

Then again, of course we would have no NHS/benefits etc. etc.  I'm sure you would approve of this in much the same way as business see no reason for these type of benefits to help those people needing help.

 

Or at least they didn't, until the govt. decided to allow employers to pay far less than was required in the uk, and would use tax payers money to top up their wages to a reasonable level!

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, Enoon said:

 

UK population 2018:

 

66.57 million.

 

 

 

Irrelevant fact.

 

 

33 million voted.

[Enoon]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

Which is why I'm at a loss at to why you still think MPs should be the deciding factor?

 

 

 

Like it or not, they are the deciding factor.

 

Everything taking place now is merely maneuvering towards the point at which the government falls or survives as a result of a no confidence vote.

 

A vote which will surely come if the government loses the intervening vote to approve or otherwise the governments actions.

 

What happens after that is anyones guess.

 

That is the British Constitution, Representative Democracy and the Law in action as it has been for 100's of years.

 

It didn't change because of an opinion poll in 2016.

 

You, along with many others, were completely misled when you were told that the government would do whatever.

 

No government can do anything without the approval of Parliament.

 

The "democracy" of the referendum was, in fact, a sham without the force of law behind it:

 

European Union Referendum Act 2015 - Wikipedia

"This act required a referendum to be held on the question of the UK's continued membership of the European Union before the end of 2017. The bill did not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions."

 

"The act made no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government"

 

It doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" or "wants" or what "ought to be".........that's the way it is.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Enoon

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

Like it or not, they are the deciding factor.

 

Everything taking place now is merely maneuvering towards the point at which the government falls or survives as a result of a no confidence vote.

 

A vote which will surely come if the government loses the intervening vote to approve or otherwise the governments actions.

 

What happens after that is anyones guess.

 

That is the British Constitution, Representative Democracy and the Law in action as it has been for 100's of years.

 

It didn't change because of an opinion poll in 2016.

 

You, along with many others, were completely misled when you were told that the government would do whatever.

 

No government can do anything without the approval of Parliament.

 

The "democracy" of the referendum was, in fact, a sham without the force of law behind it:

 

European Union Referendum Act 2015 - Wikipedia

"This act required a referendum to be held on the question of the UK's continued membership of the European Union before the end of 2017. The bill did not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions."

 

"The act made no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government"

 

It doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" or "wants" or what "ought to be".........that's the way it is.

 

 

 

 

Please quote my entire post, as per forum rules ☺️.

 

[anon676545345]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But this thread is about the devolved nations. My country voted 62/38 to remain in the EU. Since then, polling has shown that support in Scotland for remaining in the EU has risen to 74%. I am more than happy for the English to have whatever flavour of Brexit they wish for, but the vast majority of my countrymen want nothing to do with it. More power to Sturgeon's elbow - she is the only politician in the UK showing conviction, consistency and leadership.

 

The problem is England doesn't have our own devolved parliment therefore it's being forced through the house of commons that supposedly represents the entire of the UK yet really only represents London. Also the English haven't been given a referendum on whether to stay part of the UK or not, personally I'd vote to leave the UK as well as the EU.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree entirely with your first para. 

 

Why on earth is she talking about the army being needed, other than as a part of project fear??

 

I only differ insofar as this latest project fear nonsense may give MPs the hope that their constituents will believe the propaganda, and so they hope that they can support her 'non-deal' without losing their seats.

 

Personally, I doubt it.  Surely no-one is that stupid? 

I think that MP's will be paying attention to the mood of their constituents over this.  I am sure they all feel vulnerable at the moment.  What is needed is another option on the table other than no-deal, that would make it much easier to scupper May's plan. May feels relatively safe after winning the confidence vote because she cannot be removed until after Brexit has been completed.

 

I still don't believe that even with May's deal being defeated that we will end up with a no deal.  I am not as sure as I was a week ago but I am hanging on to that logic for now....  Did I say logic?  I really am p*ssing in the wind now.

[dunroaming]

6 minutes ago, Chartist said:

 

The problem is England doesn't have our own devolved parliment therefore it's being forced through the house of commons that supposedly represents the entire of the UK yet really only represents London. Also the English haven't been given a referendum on whether to stay part of the UK or not, personally I'd vote to leave the UK as well as the EU.

Not sure that the house of commons only represents London.  Capital cities are often portrayed that way though.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, dunroaming said:

I think that MP's will be paying attention to the mood of their constituents over this.  I am sure they all feel vulnerable at the moment.  What is needed is another option on the table other than no-deal, that would make it much easier to scupper May's plan. May feels relatively safe after winning the confidence vote because she cannot be removed until after Brexit has been completed.

 

I still don't believe that even with May's deal being defeated that we will end up with a no deal.  I am not as sure as I was a week ago but I am hanging on to that logic for now....  Did I say logic?  I really am p*ssing in the wind now.

We're all pissing in the wind - as everything changes so quickly.

 

The only thing we know, is that MPs (in leave areas particularly) are very worried about losing their seats if they are proven to support any leave in name only deal/May is determined to pretend that her and the eu's 'deal' supports every side (???? - even though not even remainers think the deal is anything other than v. bad).

 

The only 'good' news.... is that the uk has finally started preparing for a genuine brexit - and that's not really good news, as they should have done this 2 years ago....

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, Chartist said:

 

The problem is England doesn't have our own devolved parliment therefore it's being forced through the house of commons that supposedly represents the entire of the UK yet really only represents London. Also the English haven't been given a referendum on whether to stay part of the UK or not, personally I'd vote to leave the UK as well as the EU.

You have a point to a certain extent.

 

Many in england also think that that the govt. is mainly interested in city of London interests - and quite rightly.

 

I'm sure there are many of us who have worked in the 'city' and seen how many 'directors' of the companies within which we worked were purely 'names, with 'honours'' - with no idea at all -but paid a large amount of money for just attending monthly meetings, even though they were clueless as to what was being discussed....

 

The best comment I ever heard from my manager at the time, was 'Put their class of travel and accommodation on the agenda, and everything from there onward will be ignored'....... 

 

He was right......

[Grouse]

I hope the level of discussion improves tomorrow ????

[Enoon]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

Irrelevant fact.

 

 

33 million voted.

 

Not for a government that claims to rule on behalf of all the population.

 

It makes its decisions on the basis of what is best for the nation as a whole, including those who do not vote.

 

All this "irrelevant" of course as it is in Parliament the struggle is taking place.

 

The old opinion poll of 2016 is no longer of much concern to them.

 

Even though it is to many strangers:

 

Strangers (Parliament of the United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Enoon said:

 

Not for a government that claims to rule on behalf of all the population.

 

It makes its decisions on the basis of what is best for the nation as a whole, including those who do not vote.

 

All this "irrelevant" of course as it is in Parliament the struggle is taking place.

 

The old opinion poll of 2016 is no longer of much concern to them.

 

Even though it is to many strangers:

 

Strangers (Parliament of the United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's always refreshing to hear from someone that believes that politicians are interested in anything other than their own interests ????.

[dick dasterdly]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I hope the level of discussion improves tomorrow ????

Clearly you mean that you hope that remainers will be able to come up with a cogent argument tomorrow - as you (and the rest) are incapable of doing so, today...

Edited December 19, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Enoon]

53 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I hope the level of discussion improves tomorrow ????

 

What's to discuss?

 

Just an endless stream of moral justifications for what people hope will happen, based on misconceptions about the legitimacy, power and present relevance of their precious opinion poll.

 

Keeps their morale up.

 

Nothing new to see here.

 

Parliament has it and will do what it will.

 

The possibilities are fascinating.

 

Only one thing is certain..........It will go to the line.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Enoon

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, Enoon said:

 

What's to discuss?

 

just an endless stream of moral justifications for what people "hope" will happen......keeps their morale up.

 

Parliament has it and will do what it will.

 

The possibilities are fascinating.

 

Only one thing is certain..........It will go to the line.

 

 

Why on earth are you trying to justify the poster's ridiculous post?

 

The arguments weren't going his way, and so he decided to pretend that the 'discussion' wasn't up to his intellectual (????) level.

 

Edit - To be fair, the poster has always admitted he's not particularly intelligent.

Edited December 19, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Clearly you mean that you hope that remainers will be able to come up with a cogent argument tomorrow - as you (and the rest) are incapable of doing so, today...

Not at all. Just far to much tabloid level opinions worthy of being ignored. Just too shallow.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why on earth are you trying to justify the poster's ridiculous post?

 

The arguments weren't going his way, and so he decided to pretend that the 'discussion' wasn't up to his intellectual (????) level.

 

Edit - To be fair, the poster has always admitted he's not particularly intelligent.

Would you like a biscuit and a glass of milk before bed? You must be worn out.

[sanemax]

20 minutes ago, Benroon said:

It won't - not a single person on here including me has the faintest idea what they are talking about on Brexit !

 

Once the asylum was handed over to Sun reading racists who thought this was a vote to turn Britain white and didn't have the faintest idea what leave entailed - all bets were off !

Although the "asylum" wasnt "handed over to Sun readers" and voters didnt vote to "turn Britain White" .

  It may have escaped your notice that the rest of Europe is predominately White as well

[RabCNesbitt]

19 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I agree with your sentiment, but I don't think your explanation is correct - the UK is a union of 3 countries and 6 counties, not a single country in itself. 

Only 2 of the countries backed Brexit - the others, in this so called union of equals, comprehensively rejected it but it is being foisted upon them nonetheless. So not only have you got a riven English opinion, the union itself is being torn asunder. 

 

[Nigel Garvie]

20 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're not a "grammar fascist" but then go on to criticise the grammar....

 

You're suprised that the business organisations are against brexit?  Weird, as I'm not at all suprised.

 

Perhaps you would prefer that GEs and referendums only consisted of business institution votes?  
Forget ordinary people - let business institutions vote.  It would certainly result in consistency of govts.!

 

Then again, of course we would have no NHS/benefits etc. etc.  I'm sure you would approve of this in much the same way as business see no reason for these type of benefits to help those people needing help.

 

Or at least they didn't, until the govt. decided to allow employers to pay far less than was required in the uk, and would use tax payers money to top up their wages to a reasonable level!

1) You're not a "grammar fascist" but then go on to criticise the grammar.... So what, I'm simply pointing out that I am making an exception in this case since it sounds idiotic put the way it was.

 

Yes I was surprised to see them ALL making a joint statement, some have not indicated clear anti Brexit feelings before. No of course Businesses shouldn't control elections, it would be silly even to suggest it. You appear to believe that you are fighting for the self identified "Ordinary people" whoever they are supposed to be.

 

I am no Tory but I recognize that without thriving businesses producing profits, paying wages, exporting goods, and paying taxes, a country can't operate, or support the NHS etc etc.

 

I suggest you take off your Brexit tinted shades for long enough to recognize that 1) Business is important to any country 2) Businesses are largely run, and represented by, very intelligent people. 3) If they ALL say that the current direction is a potential disaster for them, we should at very least be concerned.

......It certainly scares the shit out of me.

 

............"Or at least they didn't, until the govt. decided to allow employers to pay far less than was required in the uk, and would use tax payers money to top up their wages to a reasonable level!" ....... How the government decides to balance their taxation is up to them, why so many working people vote Tory against their own financial interests is a mystery, though it suggests that our education system is lousy. Basically I agree with you here though, MPs  that think that employers should be subsidized by supporting them in paying low wages should be collectively be run over by a tank. That would get rid of the dross.