High Risk Of Civil War In Southern Thailand

[gwynt]

the government will never be able to stop the attacks.

the muslim extremists will succeed , even if it takes them 100 years , in wrecking southern thailand and taking it back to the middle ages , and their he11ish vision of a truer form of extreme islam.

within 2 or three generations , large portions of asia will be heading the same way , as will parts of europe.

holland , france and the uk spring to mind.

i agree with this as i live in london and have allready seen and tasted there ways and once they become stronger in numbers they be telling us what to do and in england we dont want to annoy so they get what they want its there human rights why cant we all live in peace

I work in Saudi Arabia "home of the two holy mosques" and don't see the same problems maybe all the extremeist have moved out

[pkrv]

SECULAR - FULL STOP

[TimTang]

"Sure, what the Muslims are doing is wrong, but look what the Christian did 1000 years ago."

Guess what? They were wrong too. Those that murdered others in the name of religion were actually sinning, and were in violation of the messages and commandments in the Bible. Religious clergy twisted the message for they're own greed and hunger for power.

And now... in 2007, their messages (AKA "news articles") are still being twisted.... perhaps for the same reasons as then?

Exactly!

And with all those Christian Terrorists running around slaughtering people, bombing innocent civilians, High-jacking airplanes, and forcing people to become Christians, I think the only hope for world peace would be to nuke the Vatican, the Church of England and the Bible belt in the US.

No, but I also don't think that news from druid.com, jimmy_swaggart.com, muslim_radical_news.net, or hindu_maniacs.org can form the basis for much clear-headed discussion by disseminating factual and unbiased as possible news.

Are any other news organizations classifying this as with such emotive and provocative words as "Civil War"? Where are the equally worded reports from Reuters? Associated Press? BBC? AFP? DPA?

Fair enough!

I don't necessarily agree with this guy either; he may be prematurely alarmist but then all journalists are. I've been here for about 14 years an the recent escalation is worry-sum because, yes, it could lead to a civil war. Look at the new thread that just opened:

Security in Bangkok to be tightened

BANGKOK: -- Bangkok governor Apirak Kosayodhin warned directors of 50 districts in Bangkok of possible insurgents' attacks in the capital in an urgent letter distributed on Wednesday.

This isn't just a joke!

Most of the news agencies you've mentioned are predominantly Left wing liberal and strongly in favour of multiculturalism. Anything that doesn't fit their agenda will never come to the fore.

CNN is practically owned by Saudi Arabia. 80 % of their anchors are Arab. Riz Khan just switched from CNN to Al Jazeera and you can barely tell the difference.

BBC is strongly anti-semitic and pro Palestinian. Every time a bomb goes off in Israel they can't get to the mother of the bomber quick enough to find out how proud she is of her martyed son.

Both AP and Reuters have been caught in scandals in the last year for faking or making up news: Reuters for Fauxtography, Green-helmet-guy, The AP's Jamil Hussein Scandal.

Even Fox which is considered the most right wing of them all is being bought out by a Saudi Prince.

So yes your right; you won't see this kind of reporting on the MSM.

[sanook mai?]

It seems like a freakin' mess! Personally, I do not think it is at a civil war status yet but seems to be on the verge. Unfortunately, I was injured (minor schrapnel wound, no worries) at the bombings that occurred in Hat Yai last September evnthough they suspected that it was the southern insurrgents no one claimed responsibility. Also, they are still not certain on who is responsible for the bombings last January (New year's eve) in Bangkok. One thing is for certain, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Edited February 21, 2007 by sanook mai?

[meom]

I work in Saudi Arabia "home of the two holy mosques" and don't see the same problems maybe all the extremeist have moved out

You're probably right. Also the Saudi government did a pretty good job the last couple of years and arrested/killed a lot of extremists.

[TimTang]

It seems like a freakin' mess! Personally, I do not think it is at a civil war status yet but seems to be on the verge. Unfortunately, I was injured (minor schrapnel wound, no worries) at the bombings that occurred in Hat Yai last September evnthough they suspected that it was the southern insurrgents no one claimed responsibility. Also, they are still not certain on who is responsible for the bombings last January (New year's eve) in Bangkok. One thing is for certain, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Hey! I feel for ya' man.

I used to do visa trips by train down to Penang and I actually liked it. There's something romantic about taking a train, you meet new people, quite often it turns into a party atmosphere, you're incognito for a couple days, and etc...

Then one time the train had to stop between Hat Yai and Pedang Basar, because the tracks had been blown up. Another time I was in Penang already and the same train had been fired on with AK47s from both sides and I had to go back the next day.

Both times I was lucky by just hours. Needless to say I don't take the train to Penang anymore.

Edited February 21, 2007 by TimTang

[pkrv]

Did anyone ever wonder why the term SECULAR actually forms the core western poitics?

[ThaiGoon]

I just wanna do this to Sriracha John and Cappy in this thread:

Edited February 21, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[cdnvic]

Everyone wonders where newsgroup and forum trolls get their ideas from. All they have to do is read the news.

Good on SJ for pointing out the obvious bias existing in the source.

[yankeechief]

Its time for the Thai military to take off the gloves and stop being so politically correct in dealing with these people. Thats why the USA is getting worn down in Iraq. No body fights a war with commitment, except the rebels or insurgents or whatever name you want them to have.

[bingobongo]

Everyone wonders where newsgroup and forum trolls get their ideas from. All they have to do is read the news.

Good on SJ for pointing out the obvious bias existing in the source.

right, and thai media is all knowing, wise, benevolent, and is only source of CORRECT info, let me know when you and SJ are done drinking the kool aid, you would make Orwell proud

Blocked websites soar 400 per cent since Thai coup

According to FACT, '2007 may well be the 21st century's '1984' in Thailand.'

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/asiapac...since_Thai_coup

Edited February 21, 2007 by bingobongo

[cdnvic]

Everyone wonders where newsgroup and forum trolls get their ideas from. All they have to do is read the news.

Good on SJ for pointing out the obvious bias existing in the source.

right, and thai media is all knowing, wise, benevolent, and is only source of CORRECT info, let me know when you and SJ are done drinking the kool aid, you would make Orwell proud

Where do you ever see either of us saying anything remotely like that?

If you're going to be this sloppy in your research you better go back to knitting. Current events is a bit too hot for you.

[sanook mai?]

Hey! I feel for ya' man.

I used to do visa trips by train down to Penang and I actually liked it. There's something romantic about taking a train, you meet new people, quite often it turns into a party atmosphere, you're incognito for a couple days, and etc...

Then one time the train had to stop between Hat Yai and Pedang Basar, because the tracks had been blown up. Another time I was in Penang already and the same train had been fired on with AK47s from both sides and I had to go back the next day.

Both times I was lucky by just hours. Needless to say I don't take the train to Penang anymore.

Glad you are ok TT!

I wonder if this is ever going to settle?

Someone brought up a good point in the "security in bkk to be tightened thread". They said that the warning could be a govt. ploy to make the Govt. look better than they are!

As far as the Southern insurgency. I do not think it is going to get better any time soon. Maybe next millenium!

I just made it back to the States after a year and half. Are you still in LOS, TT?

[DrFisher]

I hate to side with chairman Mao but I'm very much starting to agree "religion is poison".

[DrDweeb]

Apologies beforehand to the wiki haters but I just read this:

"A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight against each other for the control of political power. Political scientists use two criteria: the warring groups must be from the same country and fighting for control of the political center, control over a separatist state or to force a major change in policy. The second criterion is that at least 1,000 people must have been killed in total, with at least 100 from each side."

source:wikipedia

Isn't this already a civil war?

If it isn't, what needs to happen to escalate it to that level?

Last time I looked, the muslim/buddhist kill ratio of attacks instigated by the insurgents/terrorists/freedom fighters/thugs/criminals (choose your noun) was in fact 3:1.

That, and the fact that any Muslim insurgency group that bombs the Thai Islamic Bank as part of their separatist war against Thailand & Buddhism, has clearly demonstrated it's intellectual level.

Sadly, without a theological reformation in Islam, the brief period of enlightenment and prosperity enjoyed by humanity will be shortlived, and another 1000 years of barbarism await our descendents - should there actually be any descendents and humanity actually survives the ragnarok that must follow as a logical necessity from the events and plans already in motion.

[DrDweeb]

I work in Saudi Arabia "home of the two holy mosques" and don't see the same problems maybe all the extremeist have moved out

You're probably right. Also the Saudi government did a pretty good job the last couple of years and arrested/killed a lot of extremists.

FYI: The government of Saudi Arabia (a country noted for its stong secular traditions) has created a diplomatic incident for comments made by parliament member in Holland. Iran, that other bastion of liberal thinking, rational behaviour and beacon of human rights, has "joined the choir" http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L2129370.htm

[astral]

Enough.

The subject is the trouble in the South of Thailand, NOT Islam in general.

Let's keep to the subject please, as some of you have been doing.

Other posts have and will be deleted.

Thanks

Astral

[Mai Krap]

Some of the supposed history being presented here is pretty far off the mark. Ive had a good laugh on a couple of the comments like Iran supporting the southern insurgancy and europeons bringing Muslims to Southeast Asia as labourers. The thread would be for the most part humor if the core of the matterwere not so bitter as the deaths of innocents on both sides.

The following is a easy read and goes into some of the details of the long history in Thailand of Muslims. It is not a history book by any standard but could provide one with enough curiosity to induldge themselves into further indepth study of the subject matter. Nice article by the way Ken if you read this.

Full article by Ken May on Ajarn dot com

Also added to the global mix: Sometime between 1595 and 1602 two brothers arrived for trade from the Islamic holy city of Qom in Persia. Sheik Ahmad served as an advisor to the King from around 1610-1628. Muhamad Said, his brother, was not an ordinary trader either. The two aristocratic brothers relocated to Ayutthaya to stay permanently, bringing with them fleets of servants. This family (linked to the Bunnnag) had a lasting impact in terms of architecture, politics, and intellectual development. In the early 1600s, Muslims from the Mughal dynasty started to pour into Ayutthaya from South Asia. These were traders from the eastern coast of India (sometimes they are inaccurately referred to as Moors). Later, following Malay rebellions in the 1630s, a third group of Muslims was forced to settle in central and northern provinces. Many Muslims insurgents, who opposed King Prasat Thong’s usurping of the throne in Ayutthaya, were made to relocate to Ayutthaya from Patani and Tenasserim due to these uprisings. A fourth group of Muslims arrived in Ayutthaya from Cambodia, the Cham, who were promised land after serving as volunteer mercenaries. A fifth Muslim group, from the Celebes (now Sulawesi) of Indonesia, migrated to Ayutthya with King Narai’s consent after the Dutch occupied their island in 1666-1667. These were the Makassars. Like the French, they also settled at the mouth of Klong Takian.

Klong Takian is an important location for various Muslim communities in Ayutthaya. This narrow canal was the population centre for most Pattani, Moor, and Makassar residents. Klong Takian also had strategic value, since the man-made canal acted as a backdoor to Ayutthaya Island. It bypassed the main trading quay. Although scholars neglect to point this out, Klong Takian might have also served alternatives purposes in terms of military value and smuggling. Muslims held power in Klong Takian precisely because that is where they lived. However, by the time that the Makassar arrived the Muslim influence in Ayutthaya was already waning. The death of an important Persian trader, Muhammad Sayyid Ardestani, weakened trade in 1665; Many South Asians had also been expelled from the country due to corruption; and King Narai seized more monopolistic power over the trading of goods. More importantly, however, the king had started to favor newly emerging western alliances.

There is no bother to worry about any of this getting resolved without the charging of crimes, trial, and possible executions for every military and government officer involved in the Tak Bai Massacre. Furthermore the charging of crime, trial, and convictions of those police and government officials involved in the dissiperance of of the Muslim lawyer Somchai. The conviction and three year sentance of one police officer concerning this matter is a slap in the face and adds more fuel to the fires of the deep south. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out people in the south are still enraged over these two incidents. It also played directly in the favor of the most hardend of the insurgents by showing that if one does get captured or come forward he will be tortured and murdered with impunity whether this is true or not it is now whispered in the darkness of the deep southern jungles of Thailand. While some might view my opinions on the matter as that of an apologist I can live with that. I consider myself one who looks beyond the smile.

January 13, 2006

Thailand: PM Confirms Muslim Lawyer Was Murdered

Nguen ThongsukWe reported yesterday that a Thai policeman, Nguen Thongsuk (pictured, left), was found guilty of coercion, in a case concerning lawyer Somchai Neelapaijit, who disappeared on Friday evening, March 12, 2004. At Nguen Thongsuk's trial, a witness said that the lawyer was last seen with the policeman in Bangkok that day, being bundled into a police vehicle. Nguen was given a sentence of three years, a punishment criticised as too lenient by the lawyer's family and human rights groups.

Somchai had been a prominent human rights lawyer, chairman of Thailand's Muslim Lawyers Association and vice-chairman of the Human Rights Committee. At the time of his disappearance, Somchai had taken on the role of defending individuals who were suspected of committing violence in the southern provinces of Thailand. He claimed that in some instances, suspects were tortured by the Thai authorities.

He had taken on the case of two suspected Jemaah Islamiyah members accused of bomb plots against Thailand, and also he had defended nine other Muslim individuals from the south, accused of involvement in violence in the insurgency which began in January 2004. At the time, the unrest had cost 50 lives. Now the toll has reached 1000. Since Somchai took on the case of the two Jemaah Islamiyah suspects, he had received death threats.

At the time, the prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra (pictured below, right), did not take his disappearance too seriously. He apparently said: "Somchai had disputes with his wife. Perhaps, he just wants to be away from his family problems for a while."

Thaksin ShinawatraToday, the Turkish Press relates that prime minister Thaksin is more realistic, and is stating that Somchai is dead. He is also candid about his own government officials' involvement in the disappearance. It is the first time that Thaksin has spoken publicly on the matter since the immediate aftermath of Somchai's disappearance.

"I know that Somchai is dead, and more than four government officials were involved, but witnesses and evidence are still being collected," he told a press conference.

He announced that the department of special investigations was involved in examining the case, with a view to bringing murder charges. "Circumstantial evidence confirmed that he's dead. But this case is not easy at all, and because it involves government officials, it's very difficult to find evidence and witnesses," the prime minister said.

He said that murder charges had not been previously filed against Nguen Thongsuk and four others (who were acquitted) because Somchai's body has not been found.

The Turkish Press states that there were four Jemaah Islamiyah suspects being defended by Somchai at the time of his abduction, and that these individuals, who had claimed torture, were acquitted in June 2005.

Justice Elizabeth Evatt of the International Commission of Jurists said "It's extremely satisfactory that the prime minister has publicly acknowledged that Somchai has in fact been killed, murdered of course, and that this was done by public officials."

[thaipulse]

When the ostrich pulls his head out of the sand, the ostrich loses BIG face on this...

So, the head remains in the sand.

The essence of Thai culture is saving face.

WHO can resolve this situation in the South at the moment?

Nobody.

So who will pull their head out of the sand to tackle it? Nobody. Nobody with

any type of power would risk doing anything at all right now because it's a

losing gesture - whatever they do.

There needs to be a serious and concerted effort to work this out diplomatically.

Or, there needs to be a different effort that solves it not so diplomatically.

I wrote a half-humorous article about how to solve it quickly at my ThaiPulse

blog if anyone is interested.

Actually, I'll just post it below since ThaiVisa doesn't like urls of any sort in their posts.

***********************

Thailand Doesn't CARE about the South...

That's what I've come up with recently... they just don't give a sh*t what's going on down there because it's NOT in BKK and it's not in Ubon, and it's not in Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Phuket, Krabi, or Samui. They could really just not give a sh*t.

Here's today's BKK post headline from the south:

********************************

You know, in America there would be some serious effort to get this resolved... unfortunately in America we have so much beauracracy (sp?) to go through to get it done, BUT, if it was happening in the south of Florida for instance, Jeb Bush would be there everyday trying to do something. He'd HAVE TO. Here though, the Thai junta and the government before it ignored it. They made small efforts that were more to appease the complaints, but really they're doing nothing effectively.

Here's a quick plan that I think would work. You might call it racist, you might call it insensitive... I'm not concerned with all that - just making a plan work to resolve the insanity down there because it's already out of control and spread too deep to do anything diplomatically.

1. Offer to give the Muslims an area of land where they can exist as a private group, nation, whatever they wish to call themselves.

2. Cut them off from everything Thailand can off them - electricity, goods, etc. Let Malaysia take care of them since Malaysia is Muslim and Thailand is not.

3. Forget about them. If others in Thailand want to move there - let them. Revoke their citizenship and make them become citizens of their new country.

4. Even offer them money to GO. Give each adult 30,000 baht to setup up in their new country and to move their possessions, sell their homes, whatever they need to do. When they LEAVE the country, and move, they can have 30,000 baht and be left to do what they want to do.

Thailand cannot make everyone happy it is much beyond that. The group that wants a separate nation can have it. Once they move Thailand can reinforce the border - built the great wall of Thailand and forbid travel across the line into Malaysia. Who needs Malaysia anyway? Let Malaysia align with Indonesia and other Muslim countries that we don't care about or need to care about.

Everyone go on existing in their own worlds without benefit of a peaceful-coexistence, because it is impossible and not worth trying for.

Solve this in whatever way necessary, and move on to other things.

To see old Buddhist rice farmers get beheaded or monks beheaded or women elementary teachers shot or sliced open... is really too much isn't it?

Yes, there are atrocities committed by Thais against these groups too - absolutely... let's start a new chapter though and separate the groups - give part of what they want - negotiate everything out - and forget them and move on.

It's so ridiculous to continue this.

If they don't want to voluntarily take the land that is offered - then Thailand simply takes EVERY MUSLIM that they can find - and it wouldn't be that hard to find them - Buddhists don't pray 6 times per day... and forcibly TAKE THEM TO THE NEW LAND AND DROP THEM OFF.

See, Thailand can do things like this - we're not entirely civilized here and governed by thick layers of law that must be adhered to. Some things are just taken care of old-west style.

I say, for this situation be tough, offer them an out, and if they don't take it - move them out.

Problem solved.

Yes?

Posted by Vern at 2/09/2007 11:26:00 AM

ThaiPulse! Labels: southern violence

[konangrit]

Why do so few people seem concerned about the source of this blatantly biased "news"? It states opinions as though they are facts, and then doesn't even include the name of the "reporter" whose opinions they are.

[sriracha john]

Everyone wonders where newsgroup and forum trolls get their ideas from. All they have to do is read the news.

Good on SJ for pointing out the obvious bias existing in the source.

Thank you. I've actively followed the Thailand News Clippings Forum for 3 years now, beginning in the time when it was unusual for most threads to garner more than a 100 views and 3 posts. During all this time, I've become familiar with almost all the available news sources in Asia and around the world that report on Thailand and so I was very intrigued when I saw a news source cited that I had never seen before.

Out of obvious curiosity, I checked their website, only to be surprised by their banner motto "Asia, our common task for the Third Millennium."

Well, that certainly tweaked my interest further so I clicked on their conveniently placed "About us" link and came up with the previously posted babble about equating the reporting of news to taking communion and saving the soul-less Chinese. Further browsing around only created more concern.

Does their being a mouthpiece for the Vatican completely negate their reporting? Not necessarily in my mind, but it did make me scrutinize their article more closely and by using trigger words such as in their headline...making the untrue comment that the government is unconcerned about the South which contradicts every other news article I've read from all other sources... and the unsubstantiated assessment that the recent increase in the turmoil there is attributable to the government's lack of concern, it all made me think that reporting is extremely suspect.

So between using highly evocative words, and reporting it in an untrue, unsubstantiated manner, I think it is best if perhaps we avoided using Asia News in the future.

As you say, it just tends to bring out the reactionaries and the trolls and TV is having a difficult enough time as it is controlling them without providing a "legitimate" springboard for them.

Edited February 22, 2007 by sriracha john

[Scott]

Given the general tendency to sweep things under the carpet, perhaps they could just outlaw the letter "C"-- then we won't have Cracks, Civil wars or Coups!

As I mentioned before this has a lot to do with many things, religion being just one of them. The separatists want a separate state--like they had historically. The fundamentalists want that state to be Islamic.

In general, I think it's hard for Thai people to handle this kind of conflict. They don't seem to like conflict very well (not that anyone does--but some cultures learn to manage it better).

My interest is more on the general population of Thailand and the gov't rather than the South because I am more interested in seeing if they can learn and grow from the situation in the South, because that's what the country needs in order to establish a solid democracy.

Of course, I am not directly affected (at least not yet) by the Southern violence and the people living there have my deepest sympathies.

[sriracha john]

Why do so few people seem concerned about the source of this blatantly biased "news"? It states opinions as though they are facts, and then doesn't even include the name of the "reporter" whose opinions they are.

True, their lack of bylines on this and many other articles I've scanned on their website is suspect. They also use the standard "Agencies" in their reports in an obvious attempt to legitimize their reports, but again, they fail to identify what they agencies they are.

Even their moniker "Asia News" attempts to add an air of legitimacy to their bias, when in fact, there's nothing to really indicate that all their reporting isn't done from the Vatican.

Edited February 22, 2007 by sriracha john

[reddove]

Civil Wars?

Just what causes Civil Wars? I know about reading the history about the U.S. Civil War, and some of the recent Civil Wars in Eastern Europe, Africa and in South America.

What is causing the southern Thailand Muslims to revolt and link up with the Muslim groups in Northern KL?

What is the issue about?

Who is or what parties are at stake?

Who is are the Negotiators / s in this issue. Is it only the CNS appointed personal or someone from outside of Thailand?

Many, many questions. But from past history, Thailand government has never; never been wise enough to resolve these issues on their own and never will.

Give old Jimmy Carter a call.

[Casanundra]

Well reports are abound this morning that a high risk of civil war exists in Thailand and I cannot help but chuckle because when you add into the mix the southern insugents and the sabre rattling with Singapore with Thailand demanding their satellites back, well we could see Thailand getting a rather large bloody nose soon but then again...

I can see the headlines now:

Highso 'Onoury Bangkok Bigshots In the South (Hobbits) attacked by a rather large Group Of Brown Laos Isaan Northern Scallywags (Goblins).

The Hobbits have already demanded that the Goblins go back under their rather large feet and to get back underground. However, the Goblins, undeterred, have been shouting across the soi dogs heads in their own gutteral language of Laos that they are happy in the knowledge that they have infiltrated the Bangkokonian lair by forming gagging groups of Farang shields in large numbers at Nana, Patpong, Soi Cowboy, Phuket and Pattaya. They feel very protected indeed and rumours are that they will be doing a two thonged twang attack up the gusset of Bonking bangers anyday soon with their northern fathers.

The Singaporeans remain unimpressed by it all and have started mapping out their expansion plans for Thailand on the chance that the Hobbits will invite them in anyday soon as guests. This they hope will be done in a similar fashion to what they did with the Japanese so that they can continue the illusion of never having been occupied and rumours of red lanterns and foxy ladies called Ho Me Minge are currently rife in the city.

In the mean time, news coming in that the insurgents are being supported by the CIA who in turn are being funded by the Iranian arms for rice wine secret squirrels in their Iraqi bunkers has been declared as pumpkin pie in the sky by the worlds largest police squad who say it's for oil not wine.

Stay tuned for more from ho hum pitch fork news as things develop...

[Arkady]

the government will never be able to stop the attacks.

the muslim extremists will succeed , even if it takes them 100 years , in wrecking southern thailand and taking it back to the middle ages , and their he11ish vision of a truer form of extreme islam.

within 2 or three generations , large portions of asia will be heading the same way , as will parts of europe.

holland , france and the uk spring to mind.

You may unfortunately be right about Europe but I see a difference in that Muslims have emigrated to Europe and the second and third generations now are becoming a vocal minority and protesting against the host country's culture rather than assimilating. A small number, who are not supported by the majority are resorted to acts of violence inspired by fundamentalist fanatics in other countries. They seem often to be in fact from privileged middle class backgrounds, so their indignation is a form of proxy rage for what they see as unfairness elsewhere in the world. In reality they are hybrids as their forebears chose to come to the West and they have grown up with Western welfare state benefits, speaking the host country's language as their first language.

I see the situation in the South of Thailand as different as they were effectively colonised in 1909 by the Siamese who have attempted to suppress their language, culture and legal system and Siamize them without success. This is more like the situation in Palestine where the British allowed widespread colonisation by European Jews which led to the formation of Israel or even more like the situation in Algeria which the French made a part of France. Unlike in Palestine and Algeria Muslims in the South of Thailand have been given full rights as citizens of the colonizer but have remained second class citizens. The three provinces are not viable as a separate state and Malaysia is unlikely to want them as they have enough trouble already with fundamentalists in their own Northern states. The only solution seems to be to give some measure or automony e.g. have a lot more local officials inside of non-Muslims posted from other regions in all key positions; allow Malay (not Jawi which is a writing system not a language) to be an official language, like in Wales or Quebec; allow the restoration of Muslim law in some areas i.e. four wives OK but no lashings, stonings, amputations or decapitations. There are many things that can easily be improved e.g. Muslims have to bury their dead within 24 hours but Thai government offices are not open at the week-end or public holidays to register death certificates.

I agree they will not give up. There have been insurrections since the territory was annexed, nearly always suppressed brutally by the Thais with torture, abductions and extrajudicial killings. Just look back at the events of the late 40s there when Thai military rampaged through villages burning down houses and torturing locals. These never works and only hardens their resolve and creates new generations of terrorists. I condemn terrorism as well as government brutality. The only solution is to try to keep the lid on it by developing the region more economically and gving them some measure of local autonomy and recognition of their language and culture, as well as punishing Thai military for attrocities committed there like Tak Bai. Then the hotheads will lose a lot of local sympathy. But this is probably all just wisful thinking.

[HuskyDog]

Southern Thailand is really no different to anywhere else in the world where Muslims and non-Muslims live together simply because Islamic law states that non-Muslims are "najis", or unclean, and the same category as "urine, excrement and a pig".

Until Islamic law is changed there will be at least an undercurrent of unrest wherever there are large groups of Muslim people, because there will always be some in the group who will take Islamic law as an excuse for violence. Moderate Muslims must stand up and denounce the extremists in their communities and until that happens there will be an undeclared civil war in Thailand.

Historical land boundaries have very little to do with the conflict in the south. Everyone living today in the southern provinces has lived as Thai and has known nothing else. Buddhists are very tolerant of other religions and there is really no basis for any Muslim in the south to say that they have been discriminated against because of their religion. While it now may be true that there may be some suspicion and fear of Muslims in Thailand this is due to the bombings and killings of Buddhists carried out by the Muslims themselves.

To deny that there is civil war in the south is simply foolish, but it is only moderate, tolerant and, very importantly, influential Muslims that can bring an end to this. To have the army killing people will only give the extremists an excuse for their actions.

Most people simply want to live in peace, but despite being in the majority they are not the most vocal. A small group of extremists can carry out a lot of killings and bombings but it has to be remembered that they are the minority.

Islamic law

According to Ruhollah Khomeini, the entire list of things that are considered najis in Shi’ism includes: “urine, excrement, sperm, blood, a dog, a pig, bones [of a dead body], a non-Muslim man and woman, wine, beer, [and] perspiration of the camel that eats filth.”[3] Khomeini further specifies that “[t]he whole body of a non-Muslim is unclean, even his hair, his nails, and all the secretions of his body.… A child below the age of puberty is unclean if his parents and grandparents are not Muslims; but if he has a Muslim for a forebear, then he is clean.… The body, saliva, nasal secretions, and perspirations of a non-Muslim man or woman who converts to Islam automatically become pure. As for their garments, if they were in contact with the sweat of the body before their conversion, they will remain unclean.”

[jaapfries]

There is no point in reasoning with a group of people who go around cutting off the heads of women and children. you have two choices, give them what they want, and hope they dont want more once it is given, or get used to the violence. you can try fighting them, but it is just going to create more of them.

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This is what I don't understand: almost everybody on this forum is 'ripping' into the religious aspects of this issue, but I have yet to hear one (1) person actually calmly analyse this phenomena. Interesting and hence, no wonder there's so much friction in the world we have created. Make no mistake about it: WE have created all this friction, be it through fanatic religions or whatever.

Okay; going back in time, only about 80~90 years: the area we now refer to as "The Restive South" used to consist of three seperate, exclusive and sovereign Sultanates, each headed by it's own Sultan. Through war & intrugue, these three sovereign entities simply "disappeared" and are today, the Southern three provinces of Thailand.

Does anyone here agree with me, that it is possibly THIS which is causing the "unrest" in the south ? Does anyone here agree with me, that possibly these people simply want back what was rightfully theirs to begin with; I mean - it's not as if they have been getting a heck of a lot of support, help, funding, schooling-aid et all from the Thai government, hey ? Also; the fact that here's no mineral resources there' just a few rubber plantations & nut trees . . . . . .

Beginning to sound a bit like that unsolvable situation in the Middle East, with the one BIG difference, that IF the Thai's would hand these people back their land; there would hardly be any serious consequences to anyone; apart from the fact that the killings would surely cease . . . . . .

Also think; what a great tourist attraction would three Sultanates make ? ? ? ? Beats all those two-tier-priced Crocodile farms . . . . . . .

[TukTukDriver]

Wow...are these the same Muslims the new government apologized to for all the force Thaksin used on them?

[Arkady]

There is no point in reasoning with a group of people who go around cutting off the heads of women and children. you have two choices, give them what they want, and hope they dont want more once it is given, or get used to the violence. you can try fighting them, but it is just going to create more of them.

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This is what I don't understand: almost everybody on this forum is 'ripping' into the religious aspects of this issue, but I have yet to hear one (1) person actually calmly analyse this phenomena. Interesting and hence, no wonder there's so much friction in the world we have created. Make no mistake about it: WE have created all this friction, be it through fanatic religions or whatever.

Okay; going back in time, only about 80~90 years: the area we now refer to as "The Restive South" used to consist of three seperate, exclusive and sovereign Sultanates, each headed by it's own Sultan. Through war & intrugue, these three sovereign entities simply "disappeared" and are today, the Southern three provinces of Thailand.

Does anyone here agree with me, that it is possibly THIS which is causing the "unrest" in the south ? Does anyone here agree with me, that possibly these people simply want back what was rightfully theirs to begin with; I mean - it's not as if they have been getting a heck of a lot of support, help, funding, schooling-aid et all from the Thai government, hey ? Also; the fact that here's no mineral resources there' just a few rubber plantations & nut trees . . . . . .

Beginning to sound a bit like that unsolvable situation in the Middle East, with the one BIG difference, that IF the Thai's would hand these people back their land; there would hardly be any serious consequences to anyone; apart from the fact that the killings would surely cease . . . . . .

Also think; what a great tourist attraction would three Sultanates make ? ? ? ? Beats all those two-tier-priced Crocodile farms . . . . . . .

You are right but the Thais won't do it because of the Thai sense of nationalism and no external pressure on them as there was in the 19th Century from the European colonial powers. Malaysia doesn't want it and no one else cares. Like Algeria there is also the problem of the colonists who own most of the wealth there (mainly Thai Chinese) but unlike, the Algerian war, there is no pressure from the US and other Western countries to grant independence. Who will compensate the non-Mulims who have to leave? Since it is economically unviable as a country and would be made even more unviable by the departure of Thai-Chinese businesses, it would have to be subsidized by Thailand and Malaysia but neither wants this and the Arab countries are not interested.