Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[tebee]

It's not elitist to admit the public have no clue about Brexit

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-theresa-may-leave-voters-remain-eu-referendum-campaign-deal-a8740526.html

[tebee]

 

[7by7]

55 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

"Unfortunately, if we do end up with no deal between the UK and EU then there will be a hard border between NI and the Republic"

 

There won't be a hard border if nobody puts one there.  And nobody is going to. 

 

 

At present there is no hard border between the UK and any other EU member state. This is because we are in a customs union and a freedom of movement agreement with the other 17.

 

If we leave that customs union and freedom of movement agreement by leaving the EU without a deal then the default position is a hard border between the UK and the other 27; including the RoI. That can only be avoided by some sort of deal over the border.

 

There is already a hard border of sorts between the RoI and UK as non EEA nationals need the appropriate visa to enter the RoI from the UK and vice versa.

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I think we need to be careful not to link the Derry incident to Brexit. 

You mean, like the Brexiteers are careful to not link the yellow vests to the EU, and so many other unrelated things? 

[CG1 Blue]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

At present there is no hard border between the UK and any other EU member state. This is because we are in a customs union and a freedom of movement agreement with the other 17.

 

If we leave that customs union and freedom of movement agreement by leaving the EU without a deal then the default position is a hard border between the UK and the other 27; including the RoI. That can only be avoided by some sort of deal over the border.

 

There is already a hard border of sorts between the RoI and UK as non EEA nationals need the appropriate visa to enter the RoI from the UK and vice versa.

 

There are existing checks. Cameras are already in use on the border, and checks on food standards take place already. Customs officers and police monitor cross border activity for smuggling of goods and people. There are differences in VAT and excise duties, so this monitoring already takes place. Fuel duty differences meant that at one time it was feared NI's fuel retailers would all go out of business, hence the more thorough checks now. 

 

This is on the BBC website today: 

 

Sarah Meade, spokeswoman for the Taoiseach (Irish prime minister), said: "Regardless of Brexit, the British government will always have responsibilities as co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement to ensure that, even in a no deal, there will not be a return to a border."We will not accept a hard border on this island and therefore we are not planning for one."

 

Tell me who is going to implement this hard border and break the GFA? 

 

There will be no hard border.  

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

11 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You mean, like the Brexiteers are careful to not link the yellow vests to the EU, and so many other unrelated things? 

I was responding to a post suggesting the Derry bombing might be linked to Brexit. I provide evidence to the contrary. 

I'm not really into 'he said / she said' type squabbles. But if that floats your boat then go for it. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

8 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I was responding to a post suggesting the Derry bombing might be linked to Brexit. I provide evidence to the contrary. 

I'm not really into 'he said / she said' type squabbles. But if that floats your boat then go for it. 

Would be appreciated if Brexiteers would equally provide evidence when they try to link yellow vests to the EU. 

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 My point being, as I said in an earlier post, that Norway plus, Switzerland plus, Canada plus even Turkey plus; in fact any deal which means accepting the four freedoms and remaining in the customs union (the 'plus') all mean that we have Brexit in name only. In which case it would be better to cancel Article 50 and remain a full member with a say in the rules we have to follow and how our contributions are spent.

 

Apologies; I, of course, meant accession. 

Brexit is to leave the EU. None of these countries are in the EU. I can nit pick also.

[Grouse]

Who here has seen Hypernormalisation? Excellent Documentary. Compulsory for those with a serous interest in global politics and global finance.

[CG1 Blue]

15 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Would be appreciated if Brexiteers would equally provide evidence when they try to link yellow vests to the EU. 

Just ask them then. 

That said, you could argue that there is a loose connection between the yellow vest protests and the EU, given that Macron was under pressure to squeeze the French public in order to stick within the 3% budget deficit under EU fiscal rules. 

[vogie]

24 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Who here has seen Hypernormalisation? Excellent Documentary. Compulsory for those with a serous interest in global politics and global finance.

Program alert. BBC2 Monday Evening at 2100hrs are doing a documentary called:-

 

Inside Europe: 10 years of turmoil. Three episodes.

 

Episode one: We Quit
Episode one tells how David Cameron was pushed by the Conservative Party’s fixation with Europe to call the Brexit referendum. Douglas Carswell and Daniel Hannan reveal how they sought to turn up the heat on the Prime Minister. For the first time on television, William Hague, George Osborne and Nick Clegg reprise the arguments inside Government that led to the decision which sparked the biggest political crisis since World War Two.

Osborne warned against a gamble that could be a "disaster for Britain", but Hague thought there was no other option, saying: "this was coming. Either we had to lead that or be the victims of it".

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2019/05/inside-europe-10-years-of-turmoil

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Brexit is to leave the EU. None of these countries are in the EU. I can nit pick also.

I know, and have never said that they are.

 

What I did say is that any deal similar to the deals those countries have, especially with the 'plus' bit, would be Brexit in name only and therefore worse than actually remaining.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

My English comprehension skills are fine; thank you.

 

It is not my fault you keep contradicting yourself.

You wish.

 

I don't.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

<snip>

Tell me who is going to implement this hard border and break the GFA?

The UK doesn't want a hard border, the RoI doesn't want a hard border.

 

The EU doesn't want a soft border between an EU member and an EU non member who is not in the customs union. So the answer to your question is the EU!

 

As confirmed today: No-deal Brexit 'means hard border' - European Commission

Quote

Mr Schinas told reporters at Tuesday's briefing: "If you'd like to push me and speculate on what might happen in a no-deal scenario in Ireland, I think it's pretty obvious - you will have a hard border.

"And our commitment to the Good Friday Agreement and everything that we have been doing for years with our tools, instruments and programmes will have to take, inevitably, into account this fact.

"So, of course we are for peace; of course we stand behind the Good Friday Agreement but that's what a withdrawal... that's a no-deal scenario, that's what it [would] entail

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Who here has seen Hypernormalisation? Excellent Documentary. Compulsory for those with a serous interest in global politics and global finance.

Anything like Californication?

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

The UK doesn't want a hard border, the RoI doesn't want a hard border.

 

The EU doesn't want a soft border between an EU member and an EU non member. So the answer to your question is the EU!

 

As confirmed today: No-deal Brexit 'means hard border' - European Commission

 

To avoid all this then Eire should leave the EU.

[7by7]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

To avoid all this then Eire should leave the EU.

Polls in the Republic show support for EU membership is growing. From May 2018: More than 90% of Irish people want to stay in EU, poll reveals. From November 2018: Brexit bedlam consolidates support for EU and euro in Republic.

 

So you would undo 100 years of bloody history and force the Republic back under British rule by making them do as we do?

 

That's even more moronic than the suggestion from some that the hard border question be resolved by forcing NI into the Republic against the will of the majority!

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

The UK doesn't want a hard border, the RoI doesn't want a hard border.

 

The EU doesn't want a soft border between an EU member and an EU non member who is not in the customs union. So the answer to your question is the EU!

 

As confirmed today: No-deal Brexit 'means hard border' - European Commission

 

That is a bluff.  The EU have already confirmed they will not put up a border. Do you seriously think the EU will send people onto Irish soil and put up a border against Irish wishes? It simply won't happen. Here's a clip showing Juncker being pressed on the matter, and reluctantly agreeing. 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Polls in the Republic show support for EU membership is growing. From May 2018: More than 90% of Irish people want to stay in EU, poll reveals. From November 2018: Brexit bedlam consolidates support for EU and euro in Republic.

 

So you would undo 100 years of bloody history and force the Republic back under British rule by making them do as we do?

 

That's even more moronic than the suggestion from some that the hard border question be resolved by forcing NI into the Republic against the will of the majority!

Why would the RoI leaving the EU result in them being ruled by the British? You seem to have little faith in the RoI's ability run their own country.  Coupled with the fact you think they'd allow an EU commission invasion to put up a border! 

[AlexRich]

Dyson moving his head office to Singapore? Nice to see another leading Brexiteer backing Britain, nay, believing in Britain.

 

???? to Britain from Mr Dyson.

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

To avoid all this then Eire should leave the EU.

As the world can witness what a great success story Brexit is, they probably can’t wait to join the circus.

 

Not sure if they have the right people though; finding enough uneducated imbeciles that believe the lies and conspiracy theories of some demagogues, plus politicians who willingly play the game might not be that easy. 

[Basil B]

5 hours ago, Spidey said:

Maybe all this talk of the backstop has already ignited it. Bomb in Derry, the other day, is ominous.

No-deal Brexit 'means hard border' - European Commission

It is "obvious" there will be a hard border in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European Commission's chief spokesman has said.

Margaritis Schinas made the comments at the commission's daily media briefing.

If he was pushed to speculate what might happen in a no-deal scenario, he said, it was "pretty obvious you will have a hard border.

 

[melvinmelvin]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Norway is in the EEA, which means it is part of the single market and subject to the four freedoms. It is a member of the Schengen area. It also pays more per head into EU coffers than the UK, but, unlike us at present, has no say in how that money is spent. In addition it is subject to most EU rules and regulations but, unlike us until we leave, has no say in the making of those rules and regulations.

 

Norway plus would mean all of that for the UK, plus membership of the customs union.

 

Switzerland is a member of EFTA, but not of the EEA. It is a member of the single market and so is subject to the four freedoms and a member of the Schengen area. It, too, pays into EU coffers without having any say in how the money is spent. This arrangement is not fixed, negotiations between the EU and Switzerland to finalise a deal have been ongoing for a number of years. It is highly unlikely that the EU would agree a similar deal with the UK

 

Canada is not in the EU. It does have a trading deal with the EU which took 7 years to negotiate; do you really want to wait another 7 years for a deal?

 

Turkey is negotiating succession to the EU; so by using them as an example are you suggesting that we revoke Article 50?

what you say re Norway and paying into EU and no influence

is not quite correct

the payment system is complicated, some of the sums are negotiable

when it comes to wealth distribution aspects Norway has heavy impact on how money is spent

 

[melvinmelvin]

42 minutes ago, Basil B said:

No-deal Brexit 'means hard border' - European Commission

It is "obvious" there will be a hard border in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European Commission's chief spokesman has said.

Margaritis Schinas made the comments at the commission's daily media briefing.

If he was pushed to speculate what might happen in a no-deal scenario, he said, it was "pretty obvious you will have a hard border.

 

 

it is not uncommon for countries to be surrounded by borders

 

GFA or not,

how far should UK bend over backwards to satisfy hardliners and nutcases in NI?

 

UK leaving EU draws a new map,

some adjustments should be accepted by hardliners and nutcases

as well as Dublin and London

 

 

[luckyluke]

It is wise that the "Leavers" blame  the E. U. for everything what went wrong in the U. K. in the past, present, and eventually will in the future. 

 

Just hoping that the 48% of the voters, who voted "Remain", will believe it. 

 

 

 

 

[bomber]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

To avoid all this then Eire should leave the EU.

thick mick has more sense

[aright]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

Dyson moving his head office to Singapore? Nice to see another leading Brexiteer backing Britain, nay, believing in Britain.

 

???? to Britain from Mr Dyson.

 

 

Why wouldn't Dyson want to move his business closer to his highest growth market...……….China. Why wouldn't he want to move to Singapore which has a free trade agreement with the EU……… his established market, and a highly skilled lower cost base workforce. It's called good business and has nothing to do with his stand on Brexit. 

I own and run a business and as a result know scores of business owners and none of them run their businesses for the benefit of the country they live or work in.

Mercedes build cars in the USA; in fact foreign motor vehicle manufacturers in the US are now making more cars and trucks in the USA than General Motors ,Ford and all other US car companies combined. Are they being disloyal to their country of origin or is it just good business?

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

Dyson moving his head office to Singapore? Nice to see another leading Brexiteer backing Britain, nay, believing in Britain.

 

???? to Britain from Mr Dyson.

 

 

That is nothing to do with Brexit though , what advantages of being in the  E.U  would Dyson have by moving from one non E.U Country to another ?

 

 

[bomber]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

Dyson moving his head office to Singapore? Nice to see another leading Brexiteer backing Britain, nay, believing in Britain.

 

???? to Britain from Mr Dyson.

 

 

someone on this forum today stated that the EU paid dyson to go there,very odd

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

Dyson moving his head office to Singapore? Nice to see another leading Brexiteer backing Britain, nay, believing in Britain.

 

???? to Britain from Mr Dyson.

 

 

And he said it had nothing to do with Brexit... 

 

He wet his bed and now looking for somewhere else to sleep.