Re-birth

[DeDanan]

Hi All,

I hope some of you can help with these questions?

What do Buddhists believe about re-birth?

Who decides what people come back as in the next life?

Does the cycle ever end?

If it does end, what happens then?

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

[Snark]

Circle of Iron

My apologies for the terse reply. You have just asked for an explanation of the entirety of (the purpose of) Buddhism. Since Buddhism is the worlds largest religion, and people have written stuff pertaining to it for about 2500 years, rebirth, the cycle etc., it is very safe to assume the DB this forum is on will die a painful and untimely death long before 1% of the writings have been posted. Subsequently, the other reply, above.

[DeDanan]

Circle of Iron

Hi "anam cara" Snark,

I hope, in time i will understand your post (if alcohol or some other vice does not rot my mind before then) but for now i can not speak in riddles.

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

[Snark]

Hi All,

I hope some of you can help with these questions?

1. What do Buddhists believe about re-birth?

2. Who decides what people come back as in the next life?

3. Does the cycle ever end?

4. If it does end, what happens then?

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

1. The entirety of Buddhas teachings pertain to breaking the cycle of rebirth (circle of iron)

2. The lipikas

3. If you end it.

4. One term is Nirvana

[stroll]

What do Buddhists believe about re-birth?

Does the cycle ever end?

Rebirth is closely linked to karma, the law of cause and effect. Who you are now, your present being, your thoughts, emotions, actions form attachments to your way of being, (much like polarizing an iron, which will then magnetically attract other iron particles,) this will determine your rebirth. As long as you are attached, i.e. governed by your passions and desires, you will continue to be reborn.

It is referred to symbollically as a circle.

sometimes the image of a snake biting its own tail - desire causes suffering

[Lioneric]

I am not good at Buddhism but I will try to answer you question, You are near what Buddha thinks in 2547 years ago. He too want to know why why we suffer from born,old age,sickness and dead. You are a bright student if you strart to question weather I will be reborn into Bill gates son after I die?

Before you believed in rebirth you must believed in dreaming, What dreaming have to do with rebirth? Have ever dream to become rich or night mare . What make us dream? Is our mind or memory chip in our brain. This beautiful chip will decide your next destiny.

[tatom]

A good point to remember: This discussion is purely speculative and so, you will never get an answer that is the truth.

[DeDanan]

Hi All,

I have bought 3 books on Buddhism, they tell me about: Buddha’s life, His teachings, The 4 Noble Truth’s, Eight Fold Path. The different Buddhist schools and Meditation styles.

But no basic answers to the questions I asked above so I can understand the BASICS of what Theravada Buddhists believe about Re-Birth and beyond.

If asked what happens after death in the Roman Catholic belief I might answer:

If one leads a “good” life and follows the 10 Commandments (rules) worships God then after death one might expect to go to Heaven for eternity. Live there in the presence of God and be reunited with family and loved ones.

If one leads a “evil” life after death one might expect to go to H€ll for eternity and not be happy there!

Basic and Clear (true or not is another question)

Ok, Buddhists believe in a cycle of Re-Birth, how you lead your life influences how you come back (does a superior being make the decision?) The cycle ends when one becomes “Enlightened” (?) and then enters Nirvana (?)

Is Nirvana a permanent state?

Can anyone clarify what Theravada Buddhists believe about Re-Birth and beyond.

Have a Happy…

DeDanan

[stroll]

I think an exhaustive answer is beyond the scope of this forum (not that I could give one!). LeDanan, read one of the translations of the "Tibetan book of the Dead", this gives detailed explanations as to what happens after one dies, it is not Theravada, though.

Another disciple who argues in a way that is easy to understand for westerners is CHOGYAM TRUNGPA, but this is not Theravada, either.

[sabaijai]

Hi All,

I have bought 3 books on Buddhism, they tell me about: Buddha’s life, His teachings, The 4 Noble Truth’s, Eight Fold Path. The different Buddhist schools and Meditation styles.

But no basic answers to the questions I asked above so I can understand the BASICS of what Theravada Buddhists believe about Re-Birth and beyond.

If asked what happens after death in the Roman Catholic belief I might answer:

If one leads a “good” life and follows the 10 Commandments (rules) worships God then after death one might expect to go to Heaven for eternity. Live there in the presence of God and be reunited with family and loved ones.

If one leads a “evil” life after death one might expect to go to H€ll for eternity and not be happy there!

Basic and Clear (true or not is another question)

Ok, Buddhists believe in a cycle of Re-Birth, how you lead your life influences how you come back (does a superior being make the decision?) The cycle ends when one becomes “Enlightened” (?) and then enters Nirvana (?)

Is Nirvana a permanent state?

Can anyone clarify what Theravada Buddhists believe about Re-Birth and beyond.

Have a Happy…

DeDanan

Rebirth happens in every moment, according to what occurred the moment before, and the moment before that one, and so on endlessly.

Theravada Buddhist scholars see this as the continuation of a process (karma -- which literally means 'action', not 'cause'). There is no permanent 'soul' that is born in this life, reborn in another, and so on.

If you're asking about reincarnation, the Buddha was asked this question many times ('Is there reincarnation? How is it determined?' etc) and the Buddha's answer was 'This question tends not to edification'. Such a question assumes a certain world outlook on the part of the questioner, and once nirvana happens that outlook is dissolved and the question is no longer relevant.

As when a flower dies, and shrivels, and it's various components meld into the dirt. If conditions are right, a seed from that flower will take root and blossom. Is it the same flower or a different one? Well that depends on how you look at it. The ways in which the 'new' flower differ from the 'old' flower depend upon conditions.

You might also ask, where did it all start? In one of the Suttas, the Buddha said:

Bhikkhus, the round is beginningless. Of the beings that travel and trudge through this round, shut in as they are by ignorance and fettered by craving, no first beginning is describable.

Samyutta Nikaya 15:1

Notice the use of 'the round' -- singular -- again seeing rebirth as a continuous process.

As someone else pointed out, there are many 'brands' of Buddhisms, many schools. Some believe explicitly in reincarnation, some don't.

Hindu / Brahmanist views on reincarnation have taken root in folk Buddhism in Thailand and elsewhere, so you hear Thais talking about their 'next life' for example. But Buddhism was originally a heresy against such ideas.

[DeDanan]

Hi All,

Thank you all for your replies, I probably have more questions now than answers. It appears there are no simple answers that a 12 year old would understand. One would think after 2500 years someone would have outlined the basics of the belief.

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

[DeDanan]

I just found this explanation of Rebirth...

Rebirth

Unsatisfied desire for existence and sensual pleasures is the cause of rebirth.

Buddhists regard the doctrine of rebirth not as a mere theory but as a verifiable fact. The belief in rebirth forms a fundamental tenet of Buddhism. However, the belief in rebirth is not confined to Buddhist; it is also found in other countries, in other religions, and even among free thinkers. Pythagoras could remember his previous birth. Plato could remember a number of his previous lives. According to Plato, man can be reborn only up to ten times. Plato also believed in the possibility of rebirth in the animal kingdom. Among the ancient people in Egypt and China, a common belief was that only well-known personalities like emperors and kings have rebirths. A well-known Christian authority named Origen, who lived in 185-254 A.D., believed in rebirth. According to him, there is no eternal suffering in a (form of -purgatory-)*. Gorana Bruno, who lived in the sixteenth century, believed that the soul of every man and animal transmigrates from one being to another. In 1788, a well-known philosopher, Kant, criticized eternal punishment. Kant also believed in the possibility of rebirth in other celestial bodies. Schopenhauer (1788-1860), another great philosopher, said that where the will to live existed there must be of necessity life. The will to live manifests itself successively in ever new forms. The Buddha explained this 'will to exist' as the craving for existence.

It is possible but not very easy for us to actually verify our past lives. The nature of mind is such that it does not allow most people the recollection of their previous lives. Our minds are overpowered by the five hindrances: sensual desire, ill-will, sloth, restlessness and doubt. Because of these hindrances, our vision is earth-bound and hence we cannot visualize rebirths. Just as a mirror does not reflect an image when it is covered with dirt, so the mind does not allow most people the recollection of previous lives. We cannot see the stars during daytime, not because they are not there in the sky, but because they are outshone by the sunlight. Similarly, we cannot remember our past lives because our mind at present is always over-burdened with many thoughts in the present, day-to-day events and mundane circumstances.

A consideration of the shortness of our life-span on earth will help us to reflect on rebirth. If we consider life and its ultimate meaning and goal, and all the varied experience possible for man, we must conclude that in a single life there is not enough time for man to carry out all that is intended by nature, to say nothing about what man himself desires to do. The scale of experience is enormous. There is a vast range of powers latent in man which we see and can even develop if the opportunity is presented to us. This especially true today if special investigation is made. We find ourselves with high aspirations but with no time to attain them. Meanwhile, the great troop of passions and desires, selfish motives and ambitions, make war within us and with others. These forces pursue each other to the time of our death. All these forces must be tried, conquered, subdued and used. One life is just not enough for all this. To say that we must have but one life here with such possibilities put before us and impossible to develop is to make the universe and life a huge and cruel joke.

The Buddha doctrine of rebirth should be differentiated from the teachings of transmigration and reincarnation of other religions. Buddhism denies the existence of a permanent, god-created soul or an unchanging entity that transmigrates from one life to another.

Just as relative identity is made possible by causal continuity without a Self or Soul, so death can issue in rebirth without a transmigrating Soul. In a single life, each thought-moment flashes in and out of being, giving rise to its successor with its perishing. Strictly speaking, this momentary rise and fall of every thought is a birth and death. Thus even in a single life we undergo countless births and deaths every second. But because the mental process continues with the support of a single physical body, we regard the mind-body continuum as constituting a single life.

What we ordinarily mean by death is the cessation of the body's vital functions. When the physical body loses its vitality it can no longer support the current of consciousness, the mental side of the process. But as long as there is a clinging to life, a desire to go on existing, the current of consciousness does not come to a stop with the body's loss of life. Rather, when death takes place, when the body dies away, the mental current, driven by the thirst for more existence, will spring up again with the support of a new physical body, one which has just come into being through the meeting of sperm and egg. Thus, rebirth takes place immediately after death. The steam of memory may be interrupted and the sense of identity transferred to the new situation, but the entire accumulation of experience and disposition has been transmitted to the newborn being, and the cycle of becoming begins to revolve for still another term.

For Buddhism, therefore, death does not spell either the entrance to eternal life or complete annihilation. It is, rather, the portal to a new rebirth which will be followed by more growth, decay, and then till another death.

At the last moment, no renewed physical functioning occurs in a dying man's mind. This is just like a motorist releasing the accelerator before stopping, so that no more pulling power is given to the engine. Similarly, no more material qualities of Kamma arise.

Buddhists do not maintain that the present life is the only life between two eternities of misery and happiness; nor do they believe angels will carry them to heaven and leave them there for all eternity. They believe that this present life is only one of the indefinite numbers of states of being and that this earthly life is but one episode among many others. They believe that all beings will be reborn somewhere for a limited period of time as long as their good and bad Kamma remains in the subconscious mind in the form of mental energy. The interpretation of the subconscious mind in the Buddhist context should not be confused with that given by modern psychologists since the concepts are not exactly synonymous.

What is the cause of rebirth? The Buddha taught that ignorance produces desires. Unsatisfied desire is the cause of rebirth. When all unsatisfied desire is extinguished, then rebirth ceases. To stop rebirth is to extinguish all desires. To extinguish desire, it is necessary to destroy ignorance. When ignorance is destroyed, the worthlessness of every such rebirth, is perceived, as well as the paramount need to adopt a course of life by which the desire for such repeated births can be abolished.

Ignorance also begets the illusive and illogical idea that there is only one existence for man, and the other illusion that this one life is followed by states of eternal pleasure or torment.

The Buddha taught that ignorance can be dispelled and sorrow removed by realization of the Four Noble Truths, and not through any other source. To disperse all ignorance, one must persevere in the practice of an all-embracing altruism in conduct, intelligence and wisdom. One must also destroy all desire for the lower, personal pleasures and selfish desire.

How does rebirth take place? When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. The kammic force manifesting itself in the form of a human being can also manifest itself in the form of an animal. This can happen if man has no chance to develop his positive kammic forces. This force, called craving, desire, volition, thirst to live, does not end with the non-functioning of the body but continues to manifest itself in another form, producing re-existence which is called rebirth.

Today, there are people in various countries who have spontaneously developed memory of their past births. The experiences of these people have been well-documented in newspapers and periodicals. Some of these people never accepted that there was such a thing as rebirth until memory fragments of their previous lives came to them. Much of the information they revealed about their past lives has been investigated and found to be valid.

Through hypnotism, some people have managed to reveal information of previous lives. Certain hypnotic states that penetrate into the subconscious mind make the recalling of past lives possible.

Rebirth or becoming again and again is a natural occurrence not created by any particular religion or god. Belief in rebirth or disbelief does not make any difference to the process of rebirth or avoiding rebirth. Rebirth takes place as long as craving for existence and craving for sensual pleasures or attachment exist in the mind. Those strong mental forces prevail in each and every living being in this universe. Those who hope and pray that they be not born again must understand that their wishes will not materialize until they make earnest efforts to eradicate their craving and attachment. Having seen and experienced the uncertainty and unsatisfactoriness of life under worldly conditions, wise people try to rid themselves of these repeated births and deaths by following the correct path. Those who cannot reduce their craving and attachment must be prepared to face all unsatisfactory and uncertain situations associated with rebirth and becoming again and again.

Is Rebirth Simultaneous?

Another difficult thing to understand about rebirth is whether the occurrence of rebirth is simultaneous or not. This is a controversial issue even amongst prominent Buddhist Scholars. According to Abhidhamma, rebirth (conception) takes place immediately after the death of a being without any intermediate state. At the same time, some others believe that a person, after his death, would evolve into a spirit form for a certain number of days before rebirth takes place. Another interpretation regarding the same belief is that it is not the spirit, but the deceased person's consciousness or mental energy remaining in space, supported by his own mental energies of craving and attachment. However, sooner or later rebirth must take place. The spirits (petas), who are beings born in spirit forms, are unfortunate living beings and their lives in the spirit form is not permanent. It is also a form of rebirth which is temporary.

Another concept that many people cannot understand is that in the process of rebirth a man can be reborn as an animal and an animal can be reborn as a man. The animal nature of the man's mind and the animal way of life adopted by him can condition him to be born as an animal. The condition and behavior of the mind is responsible for the next existence. On the other hand, a person who is born in animal form, owing to certain mental abuses during a previous birth, could be reborn as a human being, if that animal has not committed any serious evil acts. It is a well-known fact that some animals are very intelligent and understanding. This is a clear evidence to prove that they are tending towards the human life. A person who is born as an animal can again be born as a human being when the bad kamma which conditioned his birth as an animal is expended and the good kamma which was stored becomes dominant.

Dying Moment

In the dying man's consciousness, there are three types of consciousness (Vinnana) functioning at the moment of death :rebirth-linking consciousness (patisandhi-citta), the current of passive consciousness or the current of life-continuum (bhavanga) and consciousness disconnecting the present life (cuti-citta). At the last moment of a man's present life the (patisandhi-citta) or rebirth-linking consciousness arises, having the three signs as its objects. The patisandhi-citta remains in the course of cognition for five faint thought-moments Javana and then sinks down into bhavanga. At the end of bhavanga the cuti-citta arises, disconnecting the present life and sinks down into bhavanga. At this very moment comes the end of the present life. At the end of that bhavanga another patisandhi-citta rises up in the next life and from this very moment the new life begins. This is the process of death and rebirth according to Buddhism, and only in Buddhism is the process of these natural phenomena found explained in minute detail.

A Buddhist faces death not as a crisis in life but as a normal event, for he knows that whoever is born must suffer, 'decay', and ultimately die. Or, as someone so aptly puts it, 'Everyone is born with the certificate of death at his birth.' If we could all look at death such an intelligent and rational way, we would not cling to life so tenaciously.

'Ayamantima jatinatthidani punabbhavo"

This is my final birth and there is no more rebirth for me.

(Dhamma Cakka Sutta).

-ooOoo-

(* I edited your post only to offer an alternate term to the word the system censored)

Edited May 27, 2004 by Snark

[Lioneric]

It's so easy guys,the answer is: They is no white and black,they is no good and evil,they is no right or wrong, they is no happy or sad,they is no tall and short,they is no pretty and ugly,they is no rich and poor,they is no birth and where the ###### we get rebirth?

The conclusion: Once upon a time,the devil came to visit Buddha and on his way he was stop by BUddha disipicle and the devil ask why do the ###### you stopo my path and the student answer" You are Buddha enemy ,you get out of here!"

The devil question "If your Master have hatred and enemy in His heart,He is still not a Buddha".After listen to the question/answer the student let the devil go in to worship Buddha. bler,bler. I am talking nonsence again.Help

[LoongJohn]

The Buddha recommended that we should examine each question for ourselves, and if the suggested solution made sense, then we should accept it.

I am unconvinced as to the principle of rebirth as it applies to being reborn after death since, as far as I can see, any belief can only be based on speculation.

However, whether I believe in it or not will make no difference to whether or not it is a fact.

I am quite happy to leave the final decision until I can prove it to my own satisfaction one way or the other and am fully prepared to be surprised when the time comes!

LoongJohn

.._

[ghengis]

Nirvana

Speaking as someone who has meditated every day for the last 33 years, I would say that the concept of Nirvana is something you cannot understand without some deep inner spiritual experience.

It relates to the 'small self' and the 'cosmic Self' (also known as Sat Chit Ananda or eternal bliss consciousness). The cosmic self can be experienced through meditation. However, the experience is transient. If and when the experience becomes permanent this is known as 'enlightenment' and the state of Nirvana is reached.

At this point the circle of reincarnation is broken.

[meadish_sweetball]

Speaking as someone who has meditated every day for the last 3300 years, I would say that the concept of Nirvana is something you cannot understand without some deep inner spiritual experience.

Buddha says: Middle way is best.

[ghengis]

For a long time the concept of reincarnation has been a mystical or religious one.

The question many people ask is "If I had a previous life, why can I not remember it?". The answer is that some people can. There are numerous modern books written on the subject. Of particular interest are a couple of recent books concerning peoples memories of the state between death and re-birth :

• Dolores Cannon - Conversations with a Spirit
  
• Michael Newton - Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives
  

Both these books are based on information gathered during Hypnosis Regression on many people. Some interesting concepts are suggested by these books which may answer some of the questions of the original post:

• We are our own “Judge” - our Higher Self decides when we come back
  
• The reason we come back is the ability to progress spiritually
  
• An 'easy life' where you learn nothing is less useful than a 'difficult life' where you make a lot of spiritual progress
  
• We have known many of the 'significant people in our lives' in previous lives (soul group)
  
• The way karma is worked off is different than many people think - If you do something bad to someone, in a future life you may end up having to take care of that person in some way (rather than they do something bad back to you)
  

Of the concept of heaven and he1l. One interesting question for people to think about - If enlightenment is a state of pure bliss, then anything less is infinitely worse. Being in a state of ignorance (un-enlightened) is therefore 'a kind of he1l'. What makes you think that you are not already in he1l?

[stroll]

"Of the concept of heaven and he1l. One interesting question for people to think about - If enlightenment is a state of pure bliss, then anything less is infinitely worse. Being in a state of ignorance (un-enlightened) is therefore 'a kind of he1l'. What makes you think that you are not already in he1l?"

And if desire creates suffering, how can the fulfillment of desire i.e. heaven, be 'better' than he1l, where suffering is enhanced by the lack of something we desire. Aren't both illusionary and within the circle of rebirth?

[Elliot]

when i began taking mahayana buddhist teachings in 1979, my teachers advised against reading books on the subject until after the student had taken an oral teaching...i think that the postings on this forum demonstrate why...all that i had read before the teachings was confusing and led to more questions...once i had taken teachings from the tibetan lamas, their truth became clear and easier to understand...i would recommend anyone interested follow this path...

[stroll]

Tell us more, please. Where and how long were you taught to grasp some basics? Do you know of English speaking teachers in Thailand?

[sabaijai]

For a long time the concept of reincarnation has been a mystical or religious one.

The question many people ask is "If I had a previous life, why can I not remember it?". The answer is that some people can. There are numerous modern books written on the subject. Of particular interest are a couple of recent books concerning peoples memories of the state between death and re-birth :

• Dolores Cannon - Conversations with a Spirit
  
• Michael Newton - Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives
  

Both these books are based on information gathered during Hypnosis Regression on many people.  Some interesting concepts are suggested by these books which may answer some of the questions of the original post:

• We are our own “Judge” - our Higher Self decides when we come back
  
• The reason we come back is the ability to progress spiritually
  
• An 'easy life' where you learn nothing is less useful than a 'difficult life' where you make a lot of spiritual progress
  
• We have known many of the 'significant people in our lives' in previous lives (soul group)
  
• The way karma is worked off is different than many people think - If you do something bad to someone, in a future life you may end up having to take care of that person in some way (rather than they do something bad back to you)
  

Of the concept of heaven and he1l. One interesting question for people to think about - If enlightenment is a state of pure bliss, then anything less is infinitely worse. Being in a state of ignorance (un-enlightened) is therefore 'a kind of he1l'. What makes you think that you are not already in he1l? 

Knowing your 'past lives', even deciding whether reincarnation is 'real' (hypnotic regression has been widely discounted as hypnotic suggestion) is irrelevant information to the practicing Buddhist of any school. Which may be why the Buddha refused to comment on the question.

As soon as you postulate something that reincarnates, you've lost the moment, and the five khandas are reborn instantaneously. That's the only kind of rebirth the Buddha ever addresses, as it's the only kind that matters.

Stroll, in Thailand there are many, many teachers who offer Buddhist wisdom. If you're the questioning type -- and it would seem so! -- one of the best English-speaking lay teachers is Ajahn Sujin Borihanwannaket. Her long-running dhamma study group meets weekly in Thonburi (discussions in English every Saturday afternoon 14.00 -16.00 pm, except on the first Saturday of each month). She has been teaching laypeople about Buddhadharma for nearly 50 years and also teaches regularly on Thai radio. Her English is excellent. many of her students are farang.

This link will throw you right into the middle of the Dhamma Study Group's online egroup:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/755

Or write or call the centre for directions, etc.

Tel: +66 (1) 325-8458 or +66 (2) 861-1082

Email: [email protected]

If you're looking for a crash course in meditation, one of the best (and it's free) can be found at Wat Ram Poeng in Chiang Mai.

[ghengis]

And if desire creates suffering, how can the fulfilment of desire i.e. heaven, be 'better' than he1l, where suffering is enhanced by the lack of something we desire. Aren't both illusionary and within the circle of rebirth?

Human beings have an innate desire for greater fulfilment - we a programmed to seek enlightenment. The fulfilment of desires is a part of this, but as every married man knows, women are never satisfied with all the stuff they desire, they always want more and more. Fulfilling a desire is not heaven. Heaven (enlightenment) is a state of total fulfilment, which exists independently of our physical existence -i.e. beyond the circle of rebirth.

The Sanskrit word for being in contact with infinite bliss is 'Samadhi', which is also the Thai word for meditation. Right action does not lead to a state of Samadhi, but it does provide a platform to help you realise this state through meditation.

[stroll]

Thank you, Sabaijai.

And where is DeDanan, got me all excited about this forum, started a few threads, then what happened?

And Snark, one of the quality posters here?

[sabaijai]

It relates to the 'small self' and the 'cosmic Self' (also known as Sat Chit Ananda or eternal bliss consciousness). The cosmic self can be experienced through meditation. However, the experience is transient. If and when the experience becomes permanent this is known as 'enlightenment' and the state of Nirvana is reached.

This is a Hindu, not a Buddhist, concept. Buddhism originally developed as a heresy or rebellion against the Hindu belief in the existence of an 'atman' (small self or individual soul) and 'paramatman' (cosmic self or supreme soul). One of Buddhism's central tenets -- one of three characteristics of all conditioned existence -- is anatma ('no atma') or in Pali anatta. (The other two are anicca/impermanence and dukkha/dissatisfaction.)

Another major revolution Buddhism introduced had to do with meditation. Buddha referred to the many Hindu forms of contemplation, concentration and one-pointedness as samatha (tranquility) techniques, and taught that samatha alone could not bring about nirvana. The Buddha, in the Satipatthana Sutta, instead outlined a new form of meditation called satipatthana vipassana, or 'mindful insight'.

Unlike samatha, which typically requires that one sit cross-legged, regulate the breathing, etc, satipatthana vipassana can be practiced in any posture and at any moment. The length of time one practices, whether measured in minutes or years, is irrelevant. The fruit of the path is achieved in the blink of an eye once right view is accomplished. Right view is established through study of abhidhamma; without a mastery of the latter, meditation can be very calming but never approaches nirvana.

Or so the Tripitaka (tripartite Buddhist scriptures) say.

Edited June 9, 2004 by sabaijai

[ghengis]

For me this "No Atma" concept has certain parallels with the Lakota sating "Mitake Oyasin", which means "All My Relatives".

This refers to all human beings, animals, plants and even rocks upon the earth are connected - on one level we are 'all the same'.

[DeDanan]

Confusion, Rebirth.

Part of my initial problem with this subject was not understanding that there is a difference between Rebirth and Reincarnation.

Reincarnation: The view that we have a soul imprinted with an enduring personal stamp that commutes from body to body down through the eons.

Rebirth: The view that there is a **causal link between one life and the next, so our *Karmic accumulation conditions our next life.

*All the “good or bad” we do in this life effects our karmic accumulation. Consider it like a bank account you can make deposits (good karma) or withdrawals (bad karma). The state of our closing balance when we check out of this life determines our opening balance in the next life. It’s not a good idea to be overdrawn or bankrupt!

**This causal link is hard to describe, Buddhist texts give this analogy:

The flame of a dying candle lights a new candle and then peters out. The new candle is alight but is it the same flame?

It is actually neither the same nor a different flame, there is simply been a transference of energy from one object to another.

PS. Stroll, sorry for my absence, I had hoped that this forum would generate discussions on many areas of Buddhist practice and belief both the simple and complex. The majority of contributors to date seem to have a in-depth understanding and I don’t want to be the one asking ALL the stupid questions!

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

[organic]

DeDanan - as a Mahayana Buddhist, I'd say your last post pretty much describes rebirth v. reincarnation as I understand / believe. Don't you mean 'causal' rather than 'casual' though?

And your question is far from stupid, it's one of the most difficult / contentious areas of human thought ever!

[stroll]

Part of my initial problem with this subject was not understanding that there is a difference between Rebirth and Reincarnation.

.......

PS. Stroll, sorry for my absence, I had hoped that this forum would generate discussions on many areas of Buddhist practice and belief both the simple and complex. The majority of contributors to date seem to have a in-depth understanding and I don’t want to be the one asking ALL the stupid questions!

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

1. You explained rebirth/reincarnation short and to the point, I wasn't aware of this difference either.

2. I am glad you're back, I also feel a bit like I shouldn't be posting so much here, it must be amusing for the 'old hands' to watch us making fools of ourselves!

But never mind, I think our interest in keeping this subforum alive makes up for it!

[sabaijai]

Part of my initial problem with this subject was not understanding that there is a difference between Rebirth and Reincarnation.

.......

PS. Stroll, sorry for my absence, I had hoped that this forum would generate discussions on many areas of Buddhist practice and belief both the simple and complex. The majority of contributors to date seem to have a in-depth understanding and I don’t want to be the one asking ALL the stupid questions!

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

1. You explained rebirth/reincarnation short and to the point, I wasn't aware of this difference either.

2. I am glad you're back, I also feel a bit like I shouldn't be posting so much here, it must be amusing for the 'old hands' to watch us making fools of ourselves!

But never mind, I think our interest in keeping this subforum alive makes up for it!

Stroll, we're all fools here ... even us 'old-but-never-to-old-to-learn' hands ...

[DeDanan]

Don't you mean 'causal' rather than 'casual' though?

Hi Organic,

Thanks for pointing out the mistake. I write most of my posts in MS Word because spelling is not my strong point, it must have auto corrected my attempt to casual.

Have a Happy

DeDanan.