Britain's Labour Party splits over Brexit and anti-Semitism

[Chomper Higgot]

22 hours ago, Grouse said:

Can somebody explain to me the root cause of far left Labour hatred of Jews?

 

I have no patience with Israel but have no problem with Jews! So I am not anti Semitic even if I am frequently anti Israel.

I believe, though of course I may be wrong, that the roots of antisemitism amongst some on the extreme left (and extreme right) lie in a anti-Jewish hate diatribe ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ published in Russia at the turn of the 20th Century.

 

This fabricated text was adopted and adapted by both the extreme left and extreme right.

 

It’s shadow can often be seen in comments here on TVF, typicallly in allegations of Globalism being a ‘Sorros’ (read Jewish) plan against ordinary working people. Or more frequently protestors against Brexit/Trump/The Wall or for Environment/Human Rights etc being funded by Sorros (Read Jews).

 

In these cases we can see it is the extremes of both left and right adopting the messages of hatred.

[Chomper Higgot]

12 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Soubry up there will traitors like Blair, Heath to name a few. She is after her own welfare and nobody but her own. She represents herself and nobody else. Reamainers jumping on the bandwagon like she is a savior. She is the worse type of politician you can have.

 

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/80937/anna-soubry-i-only-backed-eu-referendum-vote-because

On the one hand you argue these MPs will be ousted at the next election, on the other you argue they are ‘after their own welfare’.

 

Review and ajust your arguments, they are a jumbled mess.

[Laughing Gravy]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Review and ajust your arguments, they are a jumbled mess.

You just don't have the intellect to understand them.

[SheungWan]

47 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I am fine, it is the remainers frothing at the mouth in the belief that Brexit won't happen or they get another referendum so to ensure we stay in the EU.

Neither of those things may pass, but a Soft Brexit still might.

[SheungWan]

24 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You just don't have the intellect to understand them.

or men in white coats to assist.

[Prissana Pescud]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Covering up and deflecting open anti-Semitism inside the Labour Party by Corbyn crowd attracting the support of the usual suspects around here.

That is not fair nor true.

No one should accept bigotry or racial slurs.

Corbyn, a wimp I grant you, called into question land grabs, over the top responses by Israeli military

and blockades of food and medicine. Does that make him anti semite or someone stating the facts. 

[dick dasterdly]

11 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

are there no female brexiteers?

 

Cough.....

 

But I'm not a politician.

[SheungWan]

43 minutes ago, Prissana Pescud said:

That is not fair nor true.

No one should accept bigotry or racial slurs.

Corbyn, a wimp I grant you, called into question land grabs, over the top responses by Israeli military

and blockades of food and medicine. Does that make him anti semite or someone stating the facts. 

And the reason Christine Shawcroft was forced to resign was?

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-08-02/u-k-labour-party-flunks-anti-semitism-101

Iron-clad procedure of latter day Left-wing anti-Semites is always deny the issue, always deflect and never ever call out old-school neo-Nazis who are their new friends. (This is where Hard Left 'Taking Sides' has led them)

Edited February 21, 2019 by SheungWan

[dick dasterdly]

9 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

And the reason Christine Shawcroft was forced to resign was?

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-08-02/u-k-labour-party-flunks-anti-semitism-101

Iron-clad procedure of latter day Left-wing anti-Semites is always deny the issue, always deflect and never ever call out old-school neo-Nazis who are their new friends. (This is where Hard Left 'Taking Sides' has led them)

I still don't understand why anyone on the left wing would support semitism?  Even less the following statement:-

 

 "old-school neo-Nazis who are their new friends."

 

It makes no sense?

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I still don't understand why anyone on the left wing would support semitism?  Even less the following statement:-

 

 "old-school neo-Nazis who are their new friends."

 

It makes no sense?

It makes sense when you see the extreme left and the extreme right being exactly the same thing.

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I still don't understand why anyone on the left wing would support semitism?  Even less the following statement:-

 "old-school neo-Nazis who are their new friends."

It makes no sense?

Just follow the evidence. Just on this forum where open Hard Right anti-Semites have been given an open road by those on the Hard Left. Time and again. Where does this come from? From the Hard Left formula of "Taking Sides". Once the Hard Left abandoned the old school focus on the working class (too difficult) for the easier fruit of Third World Solidarity, all the reactionary politics of that was slowly absorbed by parts of the Left and the others progressively (sic) turned the blind eye. Its not a done deal, but for now while Corbyn is the leader of the LP, the poisonous drip-drip will continue. The split at least is bringing the issue of what Corbyn represents (and/or tolerates in his meally-mouthed fashion) out into the open.

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Just follow the evidence. Just on this forum where open Hard Right anti-Semites have been given an open road by those on the Hard Left. Time and again. Where does this come from? From the Hard Left formula of "Taking Sides". Once the Hard Left abandoned the old school focus on the working class (too difficult) for the easier fruit of Third World Solidarity, all the reactionary politics of that was slowly absorbed by parts of the Left and the others progressively (sic) turned the blind eye. Its not a done deal, but for now while Corbyn is the leader of the LP, the poisonous drip-drip will continue. The split at least is bringing the issue of what Corbyn represents (and/or tolerates in his meally-mouthed fashion) out into the open.

Interesting point that I will need to think about.

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Just follow the evidence. Just on this forum where open Hard Right anti-Semites have been given an open road by those on the Hard Left. Time and again. Where does this come from? From the Hard Left formula of "Taking Sides". Once the Hard Left abandoned the old school focus on the working class (too difficult) for the easier fruit of Third World Solidarity, all the reactionary politics of that was slowly absorbed by parts of the Left and the others progressively (sic) turned the blind eye. Its not a done deal, but for now while Corbyn is the leader of the LP, the poisonous drip-drip will continue. The split at least is bringing the issue of what Corbyn represents (and/or tolerates in his meally-mouthed fashion) out into the open.

Except, anti-semitism on both the extreme left and the extreme right predates the ‘causes’ you identify.

 

 

[Prissana Pescud]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

And the reason Christine Shawcroft was forced to resign was?

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-08-02/u-k-labour-party-flunks-anti-semitism-101

Iron-clad procedure of latter day Left-wing anti-Semites is always deny the issue, always deflect and never ever call out old-school neo-Nazis who are their new friends. (This is where Hard Left 'Taking Sides' has led them)

I am not sure you understand the semantics of politics. 

Extreme right wing is associated with neo Nazis.

Right wing leans that way.

The middle ground generally supports  consensus.

Left wing supports socialism and the afflicted, including Jews and Palestinians.

Extreme left cite the communist manifesto.. Got it... no you never will.

The Jews suffered massively from 1930"s to 1945.

Palestinians have suffered since their land was stolen,

since they were evicted from the newly created state of Israel,

and since Israel has continued to steal their land. I think that about sums it up.

Not anti semetic, just facts and the truth 

[Prissana Pescud]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I believe, though of course I may be wrong, that the roots of antisemitism amongst some on the extreme left (and extreme right) lie in a anti-Jewish hate diatribe ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ published in Russia at the turn of the 20th Century.

 

This fabricated text was adopted and adapted by both the extreme left and extreme right.

 

It’s shadow can often be seen in comments here on TVF, typicallly in allegations of Globalism being a ‘Sorros’ (read Jewish) plan against ordinary working people. Or more frequently protestors against Brexit/Trump/The Wall or for Environment/Human Rights etc being funded by Sorros (Read Jews).

 

In these cases we can see it is the extremes of both left and right adopting the messages of hatred.

Well you can go back further than that. The "philistines' in that fable called the bible are the Palestines.

They were always there. Even the Romans called it Palestine when they along with Macedonians, Egyptians, Hittites, Sumerians, Persians and every one else took possession.

Persia was the end of the divided tiny land of Judea and Israel.

But in 1948, the true holders of the land were evicted by ignorant Christian countries.

 Not satisfied with that land grab, Israel has been illegally seizing more land and establishing more illegal settlements.

That is fact. It is not anti Semitic, it is not anti Jew, Hebrew or what ever, It is fact. 

And that is why there is no peace in Palestine. 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Prissana Pescud said:

Well you can go back further than that. The "philistines' in that fable called the bible are the Palestines.

They were always there. Even the Romans called it Palestine when they along with Macedonians, Egyptians, Hittites, Sumerians, Persians and every one else took possession.

Persia was the end of the divided tiny land of Judea and Israel.

But in 1948, the true holders of the land were evicted by ignorant Christian countries.

 Not satisfied with that land grab, Israel has been illegally seizing more land and establishing more illegal settlements.

That is fact. It is not anti Semitic, it is not anti Jew, Hebrew or what ever, It is fact. 

And that is why there is no peace in Palestine. 

Off topic hogwash.

[Prissana Pescud]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Off topic hogwash.

No, it is the history and perhaps you need to do a bit of reading and research. The land was always called Palestine. 

Even when the Brits occupied the land, it was called Palestine.

Try to read a bit of history and understand why there is no peace there. If your country was subject to what Palestine has been through,

you may understand. And anyone that points it out is called anti semitic.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Prissana Pescud said:

No, it is the history and perhaps you need to do a bit of reading and research. The land was always called Palestine. 

Even when the Brits occupied the land, it was called Palestine.

Try to read a bit of history and understand why there is no peace there. If your country was subject to what Palestine has been through,

you may understand. And anyone that points it out is called anti semitic.

Compounded off topic hogwash.

 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Prissana Pescud said:

No, it is the history and perhaps you need to do a bit of reading and research. The land was always called Palestine. 

Even when the Brits occupied the land, it was called Palestine.

Try to read a bit of history and understand why there is no peace there. If your country was subject to what Palestine has been through,

you may understand. And anyone that points it out is called anti semitic.

So are you saying that brexit is to blame for the unrest in Israel/Palestine, I wondered when the blame train would arrive at the brexit station for that one.

[melvinmelvin]

19 minutes ago, Prissana Pescud said:

No, it is the history and perhaps you need to do a bit of reading and research. The land was always called Palestine. 

Even when the Brits occupied the land, it was called Palestine.

Try to read a bit of history and understand why there is no peace there. If your country was subject to what Palestine has been through,

you may understand. And anyone that points it out is called anti semitic.

don't understand this use of the term semitic

that term includes both Arabs and Jews

as well as the Hebrew Arab languages

 

[melvinmelvin]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

don't understand this use of the term semitic

that term includes both Arabs and Jews

as well as the Hebrew Arab languages

 

having said that,

 

seems to me that a bunch of posters here could benefit from a wee look into

some lexical sources explaining the semantics of +semitism and -semitism

 

 

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Except, anti-semitism on both the extreme left and the extreme right predates the ‘causes’ you identify.

 

3 hours ago, Prissana Pescud said:

I am not sure you understand the semantics of politics. 

Extreme right wing is associated with neo Nazis.

Right wing leans that way.

The middle ground generally supports  consensus.

Left wing supports socialism and the afflicted, including Jews and Palestinians.

Extreme left cite the communist manifesto.. Got it... no you never will.

The Jews suffered massively from 1930"s to 1945.

Palestinians have suffered since their land was stolen,

since they were evicted from the newly created state of Israel,

and since Israel has continued to steal their land. I think that about sums it up.

Not anti semetic, just facts and the truth 

Yes anti-Semitism on the Left and the Right does predate the current blow-up. Now what the shallow Left cheerleaders are above all is intellectually limited. They will write with undifferentiated labels within the Left and Right to helpfully cover up their own reactionary politics lining up with the neo-Nazi right in practice as we have seen on these pages. Remember what I said about 'sides'? They think and talk like something out of 1984. What they fail to do is properly address any Left-wing history. Those who have studied a little history of the left will know about for example Stalin's "Jewish Doctor's Plot" in the early 1950s. The Hard left has form in this matter and well, what do we have here? Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn's right-hand man was formerly a member of the pro-Soviet faction inside the Communist Party of Great Britain. Well fancy that. If there is one thing old Stalinists know it is to play dirty and if there is one thing that camp followers on the Left (see above) will do re any issue thrown back at them it will be to deflect, deny, deflect and deflect again. Now don't get me started on the Trotskyist tradition......... Either way both streams are pushing an agenda in the Labour Party, but here's the weird bit, every single one of them is pro-Brexit. Anybody here who wants to stand behind the Labour Party right now needs their head examined. Some of the Conspiracy Guys are quite encouraged on the other hand. Beware.

Edited February 21, 2019 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I believe, though of course I may be wrong, that the roots of antisemitism amongst some on the extreme left (and extreme right) lie in a anti-Jewish hate diatribe ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ published in Russia at the turn of the 20th Century.

This fabricated text was adopted and adapted by both the extreme left and extreme right.

It’s shadow can often be seen in comments here on TVF, typicallly in allegations of Globalism being a ‘Sorros’ (read Jewish) plan against ordinary working people. Or more frequently protestors against Brexit/Trump/The Wall or for Environment/Human Rights etc being funded by Sorros (Read Jews).

In these cases we can see it is the extremes of both left and right adopting the messages of hatred.

The Hard Left never pushed the Protocols of Zion. However, you do have some of the Hard Left today turning a blind eye and supporting terrorist organisations and institutions that not only push the Protocols but also have latched on to Holocaust Denial. How that has played out in the Labour Party is supposedly left-wingers covering up and defending right-wing Jewish Blood Libels and the rest. Unfortunately not all of the Labour Party comrades remember to substitute "Zionist" for "Jewish". In the end some of them cannot be bothered. Its all the same to them.

[Chomper Higgot]

35 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The Hard Left never pushed the Protocols of Zion. However, you do have some of the Hard Left today turning a blind eye and supporting terrorist organisations and institutions that not only push the Protocols but also have latched on to Holocaust Denial. How that has played out in the Labour Party is supposedly left-wingers covering up and defending right-wing Jewish Blood Libels and the rest. Unfortunately not all of the Labour Party comrades remember to substitute "Zionist" for "Jewish". In the end some of them cannot be bothered. Its all the same to them.

I’m having difficulty reconciling your broad generalizations with individual members of the Labour Party that I personally know.

 

But this is the internet we’re all allowed the occasional rant.

[evadgib]

37 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m having difficulty reconciling your broad generalizations with individual members of the Labour Party that I personally know.

 

But this is the internet we’re all allowed the occasional rant.

You're on form today Chomper!

BTW: Pat Condell's rants are quite often purged.

This might sort Parliament out...????

Edited February 21, 2019 by evadgib

[Chomper Higgot]

30 minutes ago, evadgib said:

You're on form today Chomper!

BTW: Pat Condell's rants are quite often purged.

This might sort Parliament out...????

Thanks for that not.

 

I spent the last half hour hiding behind the settee

[bomber]

On 2/19/2019 at 10:05 AM, nontabury said:

We’ve all read about the German collaborators in France and Holland During WW2. But very little is said regarding the German occupation of the Channel Islands during this period. Well here’s one little fact, the German collaborators in the Islands spouted the same mantra as yourself.

another reference to germany and the war,will you ever forget it finished 74 years ago,move on and get a life old man

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m having difficulty reconciling your broad generalizations with individual members of the Labour Party that I personally know.

 

But this is the internet we’re all allowed the occasional rant.

"Broad generalizations" refer to generalizing broadly , rather than referring to a few of your friends

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m having difficulty reconciling your broad generalizations with individual members of the Labour Party that I personally know.

But this is the internet we’re all allowed the occasional rant.

This story is about the growth of something that has led to a minor split inside the LP, and which has not only not been managed by the leadership of the Labour Party but has been instrumental in that growth. Extensive documentation of incidents now. The mass of Labour Party members cannot now protest ignorance of something with the split. Even with the entryism of the Hard Left inside the Labour Party, its influence and control is patchy so not everywhere is affected. BTW, it was just announced that the prior hero of the Liverpool Left, Derek Hatton, has just been readmitted to the Labour Party. Whether he will re-join his old friends in Militant (real name RSL-Revolutionary Socialist League) remains to be seen. 

[Chomper Higgot]

23 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

This story is about the growth of something that has led to a minor split inside the LP, and which has not only not been managed by the leadership of the Labour Party but has been instrumental in that growth. Extensive documentation of incidents now. The mass of Labour Party members cannot now protest ignorance of something with the split. Even with the entryism of the Hard Left inside the Labour Party, its influence and control is patchy so not everywhere is affected. BTW, it was just announced that the prior hero of the Liverpool Left, Derek Hatton, has just been readmitted to the Labour Party. Whether he will re-join his old friends in Militant (real name RSL-Revolutionary Socialist League) remains to be seen. 

My oh my.

 

In response to Grouse’s question I provide a factual account of the roots of anti-semitism amongst the extreme left (and extreme right).

 

I provide examples of how those anti-Semitic roots cast shadows in discussions here on TVF.

 

You go off on a rant.

....

 

Hatton is on the extreme left, he’s an anti-Semite.

 

That does not shock me in the least.

 

He has however been immediately expelled for his Anti-Semitism.

 

I absolutely agree with his expulsion.

 

Take your rant and direct it at someone else.