School Kids Shot In Bus Attack

[blaze]

The only good thing about this shooting if you can call it a good thing is this type of shooting tends to bring out a primal rage. To lay your parent to rest because of an act of violence is bad, but to lay your child to rest is primal. This will turn many of the passive people in the area to start to seek out the animals and do what must be done to protect their young. Big tactical error here.

Colpyat, I have been reading your posts and I can see the flaw in your thinking. You are thinking in absolutes but this is not the case. The animals don’t have a hierarchy here, they just go out and shoot and bomb. There is no formal training like boot camp and I doubt they have the intelligence in place to know the movements of people and targets. The bus just happened along, and I highly doubt they planned this in advance. If they did know this in advance and to plan attacks on innocent children is totally undefendable as a human. Shall we talk subspecies again here?

The closest mentality here is that of a bully as a bully will not attack anything they are not sure they will win at. However bullies bully and don’t kill so again not a real comparison. Bullies belong to the human species.

As usual your post is so wrong that it is almost comical.

If the insurgents would have neither hierarchy, structure, training or intelligence, then the well planned consecutive bombing attacks would have hardly been possible. A few posts before yours, an article speaks about a training camp having been raided, so there goes you idiotic theory of the insurgents having no "boot camps".

And other than that, you have added to your already more than dubious eugenic views on humanity another one - namely that it were a good thing that such an incident would "bring out primal rage".

Rather ironic that you even contradict yourself here, accusing the insurgents of being somewhat less than human, while asking the side you support to let go of reason, and retard into "primal rage".

I am a bit concerned about you, given the rather odd ideas you promote here...

I really don’t want to get in a tit for tat debate with you here, as it seems you are standing alone and the majority of the posts see things in a very different light. You are entitled to you opinion and views but at least to me it seems the bulk of what you are saying is quotes from books and other literature with very little out of the box.

Primal not primal rage. Primal examples that we have seen is an adult animal defending it’s young from a predator knowing that the predator is superior. It refers to the survival instinct in all of us. I have seen several examples on animal programs and it is inherent in all of us. Carful here colpyat your in my area of expertise on this one. How long will you sit back and watch as someone harms your child? How many times have you seen a crowd of people go after an attacker? I seem to recall a shrine in Bangkok that was destroyed last year, the person that did that was chased attacked and killed by (if I remember correctly) two street sweepers. Translation, this will not stop at ‘just my kids’ but everyone will be involved. Think 9-11 here. I could go on but I think you can see where this is going.

Yes John. Think 9/11 here. The primal instincts (one of which John, is rage) of the American people was awakened. It demanded 'action'. And George W was there to provide the explanation and the response. Problem was- it was the wrong explanation. And the wrong repsonse. And at what a terrible cost to the people who were most affected by 9/11- the Americans. (Not to mention the Iraqis). Let's hope that the Thais react with more prudence and intelligence than simply reverting to the 'primal'.

As that reversion to the primal by America has played right into the hands of Al Queda, so the wrong response in the south could turn isolated terrorist incidents into full blown civil war. Think 9/11. Indeed.

[ColPyat]

I really don’t want to get in a tit for tat debate with you here, as it seems you are standing alone and the majority of the posts see things in a very different light. You are entitled to you opinion and views but at least to me it seems the bulk of what you are saying is quotes from books and other literature with very little out of the box.

Primal not primal rage. Primal examples that we have seen is an adult animal defending it’s young from a predator knowing that the predator is superior. It refers to the survival instinct in all of us. I have seen several examples on animal programs and it is inherent in all of us. Carful here colpyat your in my area of expertise on this one. How long will you sit back and watch as someone harms your child? How many times have you seen a crowd of people go after an attacker? I seem to recall a shrine in Bangkok that was destroyed last year, the person that did that was chased attacked and killed by (if I remember correctly) two street sweepers. Translation, this will not stop at ‘just my kids’ but everyone will be involved. Think 9-11 here. I could go on but I think you can see where this is going.

I tend to doubt it was a training camp but more of a campsite. The report makes no mention of training equipment but only weapons like M16. Training camps have training equipment.

You may believe that i move into your area of "expertise" when talking about "primal rage" (if you go back to your own post, "primal rage" was the term you used, calling it a good thing that hopefully might come out of this incident, and not "primal"), and do not expect anyone to be completely uneducated about those areas of "expertise" - i had to take several years of psychology courses as well, behaviorism and psychoanalysis are not foreign terms to me, and my aunt was an assistant of Konrad Lorenz during his ground breaking research. Some of that still sticks.

Anyhow, as we are talking here about politics, history and war, you are completely out of your depth, and should stop making conclusions based on your "expertise". And i really wonder about your expertise, as most of your statements are right out of the completely discredited pseudo science of eugenics (and what that means should be part of your "expertise", and especially why this rubbish is discredited).

As to your claim about my so called "book knowledge" - i have seen up close several similar conflicts, and in addition to personal experience i do read books about many different fields. I never heard though yet that reading books is a disadvantage, you are the first that hints at that.

[ozzydom]

Bloody Ell ,not another would-be psychoanalist.

[chownah]

i am not sure you are right that the reason that the bus was attacked was because it was precieved to be a military target.

isnt it true that at least some elements of the insurgency or whatever you want to call it want to drive out the buddhists from the provinces. hence the the constant attacks on civilians.

killing a busload of school children could well have been a deliberate act to terror enacted to try to drive out people they deem to be foreigners.

If a busload of school children had been killed then you might be correct but the original post said that some were injured and one critically....it did not mention any deaths. The original post indicated that there were two or more shooters....if they knew they were shooting at a bus full of kids and if they wanted to kill some it seems that it would have been easy enough to do....but they didn't. It seems to me that either they thought the bus was full of armed soldiers so they did their shooting from a distance (and didn't notice it was full of kids) or they knew it was full of kids and really didn't want to kill them..only to scare people....which seems like anyone wanting to stir up trouble in the south could have done....lose canon police or military units included.

Chownah

[John K]

I really don’t want to get in a tit for tat debate with you here, as it seems you are standing alone and the majority of the posts see things in a very different light. You are entitled to you opinion and views but at least to me it seems the bulk of what you are saying is quotes from books and other literature with very little out of the box.

Primal not primal rage. Primal examples that we have seen is an adult animal defending it’s young from a predator knowing that the predator is superior. It refers to the survival instinct in all of us. I have seen several examples on animal programs and it is inherent in all of us. Carful here colpyat your in my area of expertise on this one. How long will you sit back and watch as someone harms your child? How many times have you seen a crowd of people go after an attacker? I seem to recall a shrine in Bangkok that was destroyed last year, the person that did that was chased attacked and killed by (if I remember correctly) two street sweepers. Translation, this will not stop at ‘just my kids’ but everyone will be involved. Think 9-11 here. I could go on but I think you can see where this is going.

I tend to doubt it was a training camp but more of a campsite. The report makes no mention of training equipment but only weapons like M16. Training camps have training equipment.

You may believe that i move into your area of "expertise" when talking about "primal rage" (if you go back to your own post, "primal rage" was the term you used, calling it a good thing that hopefully might come out of this incident, and not "primal"), and do not expect anyone to be completely uneducated about those areas of "expertise" - i had to take several years of psychology courses as well, behaviorism and psychoanalysis are not foreign terms to me, and my aunt was an assistant of Konrad Lorenz during his ground breaking research. Some of that still sticks.

Anyhow, as we are talking here about politics, history and war, you are completely out of your depth, and should stop making conclusions based on your "expertise". And i really wonder about your expertise, as most of your statements are right out of the completely discredited pseudo science of eugenics (and what that means should be part of your "expertise", and especially why this rubbish is discredited).

As to your claim about my so called "book knowledge" - i have seen up close several similar conflicts, and in addition to personal experience i do read books about many different fields. I never heard though yet that reading books is a disadvantage, you are the first that hints at that.

The good thing I was thinking was the people would not be as passive and seeing as the cowards only attack easy prey, they may have second thoughts and the number of attacks would go down. Also it would suddenly increase the number of people that were actively looking for them with extermination on their mind. I guess that’s why they don’t have rooms at the local Holiday Inn Express and prefer camping with the mosquitos and other critters local to the area. As I said a bit of a tactical error.

The ability to defeat you opponent requires thinking out of the box because you opponent more than likely has read the same book.

My expertise is in how the mind works and what reactions are expected as a result of suggestion or stimuli, I never made a claim to other in this topic. So like I said don’t go there and expect to come out in one piece. Many of you comments are not even worth answering in that area because it is very clear you are no expert there and no clarification is needed. If you wish to continue shooting yourself in the foot in that area, I will along with many others stand by and watch with amusement.

Again you use the word rage. Let me put it to you this way, If there was a tiger or other animal attacking and killing people or even livestock, it would not be long before it was hunted down and killed. That has nothing to do with rage but only survival. If your livestock was your income, you would do what is necessary to survive and remove the threat to your livestock. It is more future looking and not necessarily a reaction of rage.

The people in the south are no doubt experiencing this now that children were attacked deliberate or by mistake. If it happened once it can happen again. As far as I can see children support their parents in Thailand. If Thai children are killed it goes beyond mourning for the parents and gets into self survival for their senior years.

Let me clarify my statement. Primal rage if a child is killed, as far as I know non have died in this attack, so more of a response of bonding. Primal in the survival.

Edited March 2, 2007 by John K

[ColPyat]

Bloody Ell ,not another would-be psychoanalist.

Definately not.

I <deleted> hated every second of those courses.

[ColPyat]

My expertise is in how the mind works and what reactions are expected as a result of suggestion or stimuli, I never made a claim to other in this topic.

Good. Than stay with the mind, and leave politics, history and the conflict in the south alone. Because there you have since your first post on this forum done nothing else than excelling in your complete lack of knowledge in those fields and arguing with people who have been far longer in this country and who have had far more exposure, personal experience and theoretical knowledge than you.

In order to predict or analyze the situation of the conflict in the south, trying to stay with the topic here, your expertise on the mind will help you not unless you have first learned the basics of the history of the region, of Thailand, and war in general.

[A_Traveller]

.... do not expect anyone to be completely uneducated about those areas of "expertise" - i had to take several years of psychology courses as well, behaviorism and psychoanalysis are not foreign terms to me...

I recall the post below in another thread which does seem to me at least not to reconcile with the point above.

Thread Several Bombs Rocks Southern Thailand

2007-02-21 01:48:54

Post by ColPyat

I have no academic qualifications either. None. School of life.

Link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?ac...amp;pid=1152561

[ColPyat]

.... do not expect anyone to be completely uneducated about those areas of "expertise" - i had to take several years of psychology courses as well, behaviorism and psychoanalysis are not foreign terms to me...

I recall the post below in another thread which does seem to me at least not to reconcile with the point above.

Thread Several Bombs Rocks Southern Thailand

2007-02-21 01:48:54

Post by ColPyat

I have no academic qualifications either. None. School of life.

Link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?ac...amp;pid=1152561

I said i had to take courses, that does not mean that i have academic qualifications. Where i come from academic qualifications are done by finishing University, and not somewhat like the equivalent of a college, which is basic fare, and in the end i anyhow have only passed by a mixture of cheating and the teachers passing me in order not to see me again the year after.

I hope you don't ask me now to post a nud_e picture of me here, and we can finally go back to the topic of the thread, which is not ColPyat, but 'School Kids Shot In Bus Attack'

[John K]

My expertise is in how the mind works and what reactions are expected as a result of suggestion or stimuli, I never made a claim to other in this topic.

Good. Than stay with the mind, and leave politics, history and the conflict in the south alone. Because there you have since your first post on this forum done nothing else than excelling in your complete lack of knowledge in those fields and arguing with people who have been far longer in this country and who have had far more exposure, personal experience and theoretical knowledge than you.

In order to predict or analyze the situation of the conflict in the south, trying to stay with the topic here, your expertise on the mind will help you not unless you have first learned the basics of the history of the region, of Thailand, and war in general.

I can’t seem to find where I made at statement in this thread about politics, all I did was point out very possible reactions. I also recall saying in my first post in another thread that I did not know all the players and I also continuously attempted to not limit what I was saying to southern Thailand. It was you that was trying to limit or drag my comments to that and politics. I was simply trying to talk about behavior of this group of animal and the ongoing tragedies they continue to produce around the globe. Please do not attempt to change what I was saying or the intent or take things out of context when the record is just a few clicks away for all to see, it reflects on you poorly.

[ColPyat]

I can’t seem to find where I made at statement in this thread about politics, all I did was point out very possible reactions. I also recall saying in my first post in another thread that I did not know all the players and I also continuously attempted to not limit what I was saying to southern Thailand. It was you that was trying to limit or drag my comments to that and politics. I was simply trying to talk about behavior of this group of animal and the ongoing tragedies they continue to produce around the globe. Please do not attempt to change what I was saying or the intent or take things out of context when the record is just a few clicks away for all to see, it reflects on you poorly.

I don't see that the separatist insurgents of southern Thailand produce any tragedies around the globe. Do you have any links that prove their involvement anywhere outside the three southern provinces, and additionally Sonkhla? It even is not clear yet that these insurgents have any relation with the new years bombings.

If you can't come with any links from reputable sources, then i would suggest to be very quiet now, and not confuse the problem down South with what is going on in other parts of the world, with the exception of Aceh, which is somewhat similar to the conflict down South.

And this conflict was solved by negotiations initiated by an European business men, controlled by a combined low key and unarmed EU/ASEAN monitoring mission (including Thailand with one of the largest contingents) and not by a Christian fundamentalist US President escalating the conflict by initiating large scale wars for the sole benefit of a few corporations, and costing the lives of more than a hundred thousand people.

Edited March 2, 2007 by ColPyat

[kayo]

Why don't you open your own ColyPat bashing thread John K. and buy yourself an early holiday.

Cos you've done nothing else here, certainly not stayed at all on topic.

[DrDweeb]

Who am i to judge. I have made many mistakes in my life

Have those mistakes been beheading monks, burning down schools, or killing teachers?

Doesn't seem to matter how vile the actions of terrorists are, there's always someone ready to jump up and be compassionate towards the murderers of innocent people. Nobody is in a situation where they have no choice but to commit terrorism.

I'm certain the terrorists in the south would love to hear how much compassion you have for what they will have to go through psychologicly in years to come. Before they cut your head off they may even say thank you.

Tell me, please, how comfortable is it to view the world in such simple terms of "the good" and "the bad"?

What about Tak Bai, tell me then your views on Tak Bai, and the lack of punishment of the responsible officers?

What about the chain of cause and effect, do these concepts have space in your world view?

Aha - the relativist argument - always a sign of bankruptcy.

[ColPyat]

Aha - the relativist argument - always a sign of bankruptcy.

Aha - the snide from the side - always a sign of fishing for an argument completely unrelated to the topic.

Any educated views on the topic, which is "School Kids Shot In Bus Attack"?

[DrDweeb]

Quite interesting to see some people view the Southern situation in one dimensional good versus bad analogies. Nice to know that the modern world can be sorted out in such an easy maner. No doubt all these simplistic "terrorism" problems can be sorted out in about 5 days now that we know how to analyse them. Oh hole on a moment King George has been trying that approach for over six years with no success and a tangible deterioration of the situation world wide not to mention hundreds of thousands of dead.

Historically, the strategy of killing every last one of an enemy (terrorist, insurgent organisation etc) has been a viable solution. Machiavelli went to some lengths to explain this. A modern example is the fact that there are no Palestinian terrorists on the european mainland any more - there are others.

As was pointed out in other threads, the individuals perpetrating these acts are not noted for their intellectual capability, religious

purity or commitment to a greater cause.

Thugs is probably a better word for them.

But hey, what do I know, I avoid war zones and Yala is lime green on my map.

[John K]

Not even worth an answer, but check Iraq, Philippines, and a few other places or go back to my old posts. All the same goals, all the same battle cries, and seemingly all the same religion. Some news clipping suggest some of Osama’s people are now active in the south so it is one big happy pack of animals here. That is why I was not limiting my comments to just Thailand you need to look at the bigger picture.

Kayo I am not bashing him, I am just trying to keep him from wandering off what I am saying and trying to change the intent of my post. I do agree with him on some points, but it seems to be like walking a dog on a long leash, tends to wander off a bit. My whole contribution to this thread was to the tragedy and human nature.

[ColPyat]

Not even worth an answer, but check Iraq, Philippines, and a few other places or go back to my old posts. All the same goals, all the same battle cries, and seemingly all the same religion. Some news clipping suggest some of Osama’s people are now active in the south so it is one big happy pack of animals here. That is why I was not limiting my comments to just Thailand you need to look at the bigger picture.

Kayo I am not bashing him, I am just trying to keep him from wandering off what I am saying and trying to change the intent of my post. I do agree with him on some points, but it seems to be like walking a dog on a long leash, tends to wander off a bit. My whole contribution to this thread was to the tragedy and human nature.

Excuse me, but reading your posts once is enough for me. Thank you, but going back through that is more pain than i can presently bear. I have no masochistic tendencies.

The bigger picture you suggest here, does not exists other than in the minds of paranoid conspiracy theorists. I would suggest, for the sake of the discussion to stay with southern Thailand, and do not use pure conjecture to stray away from the topic of which you have at most a dim idea of the details involved.

Your whole contribution to this thread was posting nothing whatsoever that had anything to do with the particular incident that stands to discussion, other than describing that you hope that something good comes out namely some undefined "primal rage", and sprouting your usual accusations of insurgents being "animals", "subhuman".

Christ, this is annoying!

[DrDweeb]

What is it then with Tak Bai? Were the suffocated demonstrators legitimate targets, in your opinion, or was Tak Bai a gross human rights violation? Should then, in your opinion, the responsible officers be punished, or is it alright to just send them to inactive posts?

Gross human rights violation. The prosecution should not stop at the officers, although they should bear a heavier burden of the responsibility. Inactive posts are not a suitable punishment.

Here we are in agreement. Note though please that the very reluctant investigation and sad excuse for punishment under Thaksin was not taken up freshly by the present government. The rule that the armed forces tend to protect their own seems to still be valid.

Could be the Tak Bai incident and the failure to punish the responsible officers be partly responsible for the escalation of the conflict?

Only superficially as in giving them an excuse to point at. It is a legitimate grievence, but not an excuse for terrorism.

Good, what about then about a long history of marginalization of the local population, a long history of regular armed uprisings, of which the latest only ended in the '80s? What about consistent refusals of acceptance of the indigenous language - Yawi - as a second official language, as is usual in many areas of the world in areas of ethnic minorities?

I do not excuse violence here, or even support independence for Pattani, but all this is clearly not just "terrorism" but a struggle for independence of a region that previously was an independent state, with an ethnic population that is not Thai. And any solution has to take into account these legitimate grievances as well, and not just label these insurgence as what may be convenient to the arm chair warriors.

So, you have some evidence of popular support, which would seem to be a pre-requisite for your statements? I do not see an armed uprising of the masses, just a lot of thugs with guns. I am a distant observer however, and not only the kill ratio is clearly tipped 3:1 in favour of muslim deaths v. buddhist deaths. They seem to be targetting those who might conceivably support them rather than some nebulous enemy.

And in this particular case, do you think it was responsible to put children into a military bus, which is clearly a legitimate target, or should, as another poster has suggested already, the children be put into a clearly marked civilian bus, and given armed escort?

To date the terrorists have shown a reluctance to hit the military, but have had no qualms about teachers and schools. Looking at past behaviours the odds are better if the attackers think the target may be full of armed troops who may actually fight back.

Excuse me, but to date there were more than a few incidents where the military and armed volonteer organizations were clearly targeted. May i remind you just at the Krue Sae Mosque, where the there hidden insurgents before have attacked military and police posts, in appearant suicide attacks as they were only armed with machetes and a few oldish guns no match to the arms of the security forces. This is also reflected by the high amount of insurgent's death, a whole local football team killed, and reports of the insurgents hidden in the mosque being summarily executed, the commanding officer, Gen. Pallop, having clearly ignored then Defense Minister Chavalit's order to solve the situation via negotiations (and then have a look where the name Gen. Pallop has reapeared in recent times ).

And the many other small incidents where ranger and military patrols came under fire. Even during the latest bombings there was one incident where a military post was attacked and soldiers and insurgents have exchanged fire for several minutes.

I think you are being a bit selective here to support your views, and do not judge the situation based on reality.

[DrDweeb]

So the valliant Jihaidst horde ran screaming into the woods like in Monty Pythons Holy Grail.

Run away run away,

When danger reared its ugly head they bravely turned away and fled!

"Panick run, these are men with guns, not children, monks, women teachers with their hands tied behind their backs etc"

Hmmm, shooting people with hands tied behind their backs, isn't that as well one of the well proved tactics of the Thai army, such as in the Kru Sae Mosque incident, or the Ratchaburi hospital incident?

And <deleted> would you do if you get ambushed by a superior force? You would run if you can like anybody else does in such a situation.

Jeesas Christ...

You need to brush up on the Jihad philosophy and psychology.

They are commanded to fight to the death in order to be admitted to heaven and the 71 virgins and all that. True muslims would have died in the gun battle as a matter of principle

[ColPyat]

So, you have some evidence of popular support, which would seem to be a pre-requisite for your statements? I do not see an armed uprising of the masses, just a lot of thugs with guns. I am a distant observer however, and not only the kill ratio is clearly tipped 3:1 in favour of muslim deaths v. buddhist deaths. They seem to be targetting those who might conceivably support them rather than some nebulous enemy.

This is a very difficult question to answer. I don't think anyone can answer this question other than by allowing a vote on autonomy there, and looking at the results. But in the present climate this is hardly possible.

Reality is usually somewhere in between. Pure speculation here, but i doubt that the insurgents have large support in their tactics, even though there are clear "red zones" - villages where the support runs high. Nevertheless, the issues involved i believe have huge support down south. It is not just Muslims vs. Buddhists, even though both the more radical insurgents and the more radical Thai nationalists would like to paint that picture.

I have friends from Pattani, both Buddhists and Muslims, neither support the insurgents, and they don't support the Government either.

Most Muslim dead killed by the insurgents there were either "collateral damage" (i do hate the expression), or were working for the government, be that teachers, Puyai bans, informants, armed volonteers, etc. Basically, representatives of the Thai state.

Sad reality of those sort of conflicts are that they will continue to escalate so far that both warring sides have not the slightest bit of legitimacy left, employ the same horrific tactics, and the local population lives in equal fear of both sides, and then somehow they might be forced onto the negotiation table by both internal and external pressure.

[DrDweeb]

Not even worth an answer, but check Iraq, Philippines, and a few other places or go back to my old posts. All the same goals, all the same battle cries, and seemingly all the same religion. Some news clipping suggest some of Osama’s people are now active in the south so it is one big happy pack of animals here. That is why I was not limiting my comments to just Thailand you need to look at the bigger picture.

Kayo I am not bashing him, I am just trying to keep him from wandering off what I am saying and trying to change the intent of my post. I do agree with him on some points, but it seems to be like walking a dog on a long leash, tends to wander off a bit. My whole contribution to this thread was to the tragedy and human nature.

I believe there are well documented Saudi influences. I forget the link, google if you are interested.

[DrDweeb]

So, you have some evidence of popular support, which would seem to be a pre-requisite for your statements? I do not see an armed uprising of the masses, just a lot of thugs with guns. I am a distant observer however, and not only the kill ratio is clearly tipped 3:1 in favour of muslim deaths v. buddhist deaths. They seem to be targetting those who might conceivably support them rather than some nebulous enemy.

This is a very difficult question to answer. I don't think anyone can answer this question other than by allowing a vote on autonomy there, and looking at the results. But in the present climate this is hardly possible.

Reality is usually somewhere in between. Pure speculation here, but i doubt that the insurgents have large support in their tactics, even though there are clear "red zones" - villages where the support runs high. Nevertheless, the issues involved i believe have huge support down south. It is not just Muslims vs. Buddhists, even though both the more radical insurgents and the more radical Thai nationalists would like to paint that picture.

I have friends from Pattani, both Buddhists and Muslims, neither support the insurgents, and they don't support the Government either.

Most Muslim dead killed by the insurgents there were either "collateral damage" (i do hate the expression), or were working for the government, be that teachers, Puyai bans, informants, armed volonteers, etc. Basically, representatives of the Thai state.

Sad reality of those sort of conflicts are that they will continue to escalate so far that both warring sides have not the slightest bit of legitimacy left, employ the same horrific tactics, and the local population lives in equal fear of both sides, and then somehow they might be forced onto the negotiation table by both internal and external pressure.

It might be that the answer is inconsistent with your position - whoops - cognative dissonance. waffle waffle waffle.

[ColPyat]

It might be that the answer is inconsistent with your position - whoops - cognative dissonance. waffle waffle waffle.

Yeah, good night, i am getting tired of this pointless and ill informed rubbish.

[DrDweeb]

It might be that the answer is inconsistent with your position - whoops - cognative dissonance. waffle waffle waffle.

Yeah, good night, i am getting tired of this pointless and ill informed rubbish.

It was neither pointless nor ill- informed.

1: It's point was to puncture your pseudo intellectualism - somewhat successful judging from you response.

2: Since the post contained no information, it can hardly be described as "ill-informed" - though in fairness, you may have been referring to fellow TV posters who almost universally disagree with you.

I suggest you look into the history of a few revolutions/insurgencies etc, successful and otherwise. The answer to why the "apparent support base" might be targetted is easy to spot and is likely true also in the case in question. Your waffle (while on the face of it reasonable) is that of someone not really willing to face the ugliness of the perpetrators and their motives.

[ColPyat]

It was neither pointless nor ill- informed.

1: It's point was to puncture your pseudo intellectualism - somewhat successful judging from you response.

2: Since the post contained no information, it can hardly be described as "ill-informed" - though in fairness, you may have been referring to fellow TV posters who almost universally disagree with you.

I suggest you look into the history of a few revolutions/insurgencies etc, successful and otherwise. The answer to why the "apparent support base" might be targetted is easy to spot and is likely true also in the case in question. Your waffle (while on the face of it reasonable) is that of someone not really willing to face the ugliness of the perpetrators and their motives.

Last post, i gotta go sleeping.

Yeah, look at the history of revolutions/insurgencies, especially the one closest to this one, both regionally and issue wise, that being Aceh. This was solved at the negotiation table, and not by escalation, or fanatic anti-islamism.

After that, i would suggest then to forget your blathering about complete extermination of the opponent, mistaken ideas on the even in the Islamic world hotly debated concept and validity of jihad, and the difference how this concept is applied by insurgents striving for separatism, and the organisations striving for an extended Kaliphate, the lack of any monolithic structure therein.

And as to the "perpetrators" in particular this conflict in Southern Thailand, which is the topic of this thread, there is a clearly documented history of equal measure of human rights abuses. As is in almost all such conflicts.

And as to the rumors of Al- Quaida types - until i see the first foreign fighter being captured or killed, i prefer to stay with the available evidence, and not speculation. There of course will be networking, but many seperatist groups reject the ideology of what i would term as "international jihad".

Case example is Kashmir - where most of the initial JKLF rebels have either retired or even joined the Indian government when the direction was taken over by the ISI sponsored groups (equipped with both Saudi and US funding channeled over from Afghanisthan funds), as they neither aspired to join a religious fundamentalist Pakisthan, or a fuzzy caliphate proposed by the more loony groups, but independence with a soft Islamic rule.

Basically, the best and only option for the South is trying to achieve what has been achieved in Aceh.

[DrDweeb]

It was neither pointless nor ill- informed.

1: It's point was to puncture your pseudo intellectualism - somewhat successful judging from you response.

2: Since the post contained no information, it can hardly be described as "ill-informed" - though in fairness, you may have been referring to fellow TV posters who almost universally disagree with you.

I suggest you look into the history of a few revolutions/insurgencies etc, successful and otherwise. The answer to why the "apparent support base" might be targetted is easy to spot and is likely true also in the case in question. Your waffle (while on the face of it reasonable) is that of someone not really willing to face the ugliness of the perpetrators and their motives.

Last post, i gotta go sleeping.

Yeah, look at the history of revolutions/insurgencies, especially the one closest to this one, both regionally and issue wise, that being Aceh. This was solved at the negotiation table, and not by escalation, or fanatic anti-islamism.

After that, i would suggest then to forget your blathering about complete extermination of the opponent, mistaken ideas on the even in the Islamic world hotly debated concept and validity of jihad, and the difference how this concept is applied by insurgents striving for separatism, and the organisations striving for an extended Kaliphate, the lack of any monolithic structure therein.

And as to the "perpetrators" in particular this conflict in Southern Thailand, which is the topic of this thread, there is a clearly documented history of equal measure of human rights abuses. As is in almost all such conflicts.

And as to the rumors of Al- Quaida types - until i see the first foreign fighter being captured or killed, i prefer to stay with the available evidence, and not speculation. There of course will be networking, but many seperatist groups reject the ideology of what i would term as "international jihad".

Case example is Kashmir - where most of the initial JKLF rebels have either retired or even joined the Indian government when the direction was taken over by the ISI sponsored groups (equipped with both Saudi and US funding channeled over from Afghanisthan funds), as they neither aspired to join a religious fundamentalist Pakisthan, or a fuzzy caliphate proposed by the more loony groups, but independence with a soft Islamic rule.

Basically, the best and only option for the South is trying to achieve what has been achieved in Aceh.

Soft Isalmic rule - a new oxymoron.

I will just go out and laugh uncontrollably

[ColPyat]

Soft Isalmic rule - a new oxymoron.

I will just go out and laugh uncontrollably

And you accuse me of pseudo-intellectual waffle? This statement of yours does not even qualify as that.

Ever been to Malaysia? For the Malay population (per definition Muslim) there are softened versions of sharia valid, which do not count for the non Muslim population.

Ever been to Turkey? Secular country.

Ever been to Kashmir? Traditionally rather easy going in religious affairs.

Ever been to Ladakh? Muslim and Buddhist population have until recently lived together absolutely peacefully, only Saudi influence poisoned the atmosphere. Still though - in the same family you have Muslims and Buddhists.

Even in Iran, as a non Muslim, you are allowed to brew and drink alcohol, and during Ramadan you don't need to suffer much as most restaurants will still serve food during daytime.

etc.

Not though in the two biggest partners of the US in the "war against terror", Saudi and Pakistan, where Islamic law is stricter than anywhere else, whose countries have possibly the largest proportion of jihadists. Ironic, isn't it?

But it's just so easy to hate Muslims and Islam if you don't know any Muslim. Most people in Europe, such as me when i was a kid, went to school with Muslims, worked with Muslims, had/have Muslim friends, and religion was, and still is, never an issue. We just get along fine.

[ColPyat]

I tend to doubt it was a training camp but more of a campsite. The report makes no mention of training equipment but only weapons like M16. Training camps have training equipment.

Another one of your statements has been disproved by reality. Wouldn't it be slowly time for you to accept that your theories about what is going on in the south have no base whatsoever? According to the article there was both exchange of fire, and the insurgents were undergoing training:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/03...es_30028407.php

Five militants killed in raid on camp

At least five militants died in a 30-minute gunfight when Rangers stumbled on their training camp in the jungle of southernmost Narathiwat province yesterday.

The clash took place at around 10am, when a dozen Rangers from the 4506th Task Force in Rangae district were on a patrol to inspect a suspected militant training camp in Taway Mountain.

A group of 15 to 17 militants was undergoing training when the Rangers arrived on the scene, which was followed by an exchange of gunfire for half an hour.

It was the first time security officials had discovered an active militant training camp, according to army spokesman Colonel Akra Thiproj. Previously, only abandoned camps were discovered, he added.

A reinforcement of some 200 troops was dispatched later to clear and secure the place.

Five bodies of militants were found at the scene, but a bloody trail indicated some might have escaped with serious injuries, an official said. All the Rangers were safe.

The officials retrieved two M-16 rifles, a shotgun and some ammunition from the battleground.

The five dead militants were identified as Ahama Hajimajeh, Maphaisa Dolloh, Abdulphata Aloheng, Ismail Waemameng and Sukri Malae. They came from different areas, including Narathiwat's Sungai Padi, Tak Bai and Waeng districts and Pattani's Nong Chik district.

None of them was a resident of Rangae district.

It remained unclear how officials were able to identify the militants within a few hours after the clash.

Their identities were released to media shortly after the dead bodies were brought from the scene of the clash to a local public school in the district. The bodies were later shifted to Narathiwat Hospital for autopsies.

Militancy flared up in the predominantly Muslim region in the beginning of 2004 and some 2,000 people have died so far.

Authorities are struggling to contain the almost-daily violence as most of the militants do not confront the security forces directly.

In Narathiwat's Si Sakhon district, a deputy chief of the Tambon Administration Organisation was shot dead and three other people accompanying him were injured during an attack yesterday. Gunmen hiding in the jungle along the roadside fired at the car, killing Laseh Masamae and injuring the three others.

Meanwhile, in neighbouring Yala province, women Rangers managed to end a protest by about 100 Muslim women in Muang district, who were demanding that authorities release a man suspected of exploding a bomb at a petrol station recently.

The protesters employed a new tactic to pressure officials by carrying a three-month-old infant with them.

Some 50 unarmed women Rangers were dispatched to negotiate with the protesters. When the demonstrators refused to end the protest, the Rangers used force, dragging and pushing them away from the road, and managed to end the drama peacefully in three hours.

[John K]

Read it again carefully colpyat

The officials retrieved two M-16 rifles, a shotgun and some ammunition from the battleground.

There was no mention of anything for training. If you dig back you will see that when training camps are raided they find the related training equipment. M-16 rifles, shotgun and ammunition are what they carry with them and more than likely what was left behind belonged to the dead animals. I think the journalist or someone inserted the word “training” to spice up the story. The evidence simply does not support the claim in my opinion. The fact that they said prior to this they found only empty camps further suggest that they were just camp sites.

Also what type of training do they need to shoot up a bus full of school children, behead monks, plant bombs, and so on? Training to me would imply how to deal with people. All they do is run and hide. That by the way is a natural response of a coward no training required.

Colpyat, It would seem you have to have the last word no matter what. Many of the posters here have presented substantiated comments and you just turn around and blast them and retreat to some vague insult or derogatory statement about the poster when you discovered you were, for lack of a better term “out gunned” by them. Just an observation mind you.

[ColPyat]

Read it again carefully colpyat

The officials retrieved two M-16 rifles, a shotgun and some ammunition from the battleground.

There was no mention of anything for training. If you dig back you will see that when training camps are raided they find the related training equipment. M-16 rifles, shotgun and ammunition are what they carry with them and more than likely what was left behind belonged to the dead animals. I think the journalist or someone inserted the word “training” to spice up the story. The evidence simply does not support the claim in my opinion. The fact that they said prior to this they found only empty camps further suggest that they were just camp sites.

Also what type of training do they need to shoot up a bus full of school children, behead monks, plant bombs, and so on? Training to me would imply how to deal with people. All they do is run and hide. That by the way is a natural response of a coward no training required.

Colpyat, It would seem you have to have the last word no matter what. Many of the posters here have presented substantiated comments and you just turn around and blast them and retreat to some vague insult or derogatory statement about the poster when you discovered you were, for lack of a better term “out gunned” by them. Just an observation mind you.

Yes, reading abilities are obviously not part of your expertise. Quoted here from the article:

"A group of 15 to 17 militants was undergoing training when the Rangers arrived on the scene, which was followed by an exchange of gunfire for half an hour."

and:

"It was the first time security officials had discovered an active militant training camp, according to army spokesman Colonel Akra Thiproj. Previously, only abandoned camps were discovered, he added."

What do you expect from a insurgent's training camp in the jungle, the same equipment of US army rangers? I have visited many training camps of different Burmese insurgent groups, such as ABSDF, KNLA, etc. and most had no equipment whatsoever other than a few rifles.

What training one needs to do an insurgency you ask?

Lets start with explosives training, weapons handling, guerrilla strategy, indoctrination, first AID, and whatever else.

Yes, there were many posters who have made substantiated posts, and several others didn't. You belong to the latter group.

Edited March 3, 2007 by ColPyat