School Kids Shot In Bus Attack

[ColPyat]

Who am i to judge. I have made many mistakes in my life

Have those mistakes been beheading monks, burning down schools, or killing teachers?

Doesn't seem to matter how vile the actions of terrorists are, there's always someone ready to jump up and be compassionate towards the murderers of innocent people. Nobody is in a situation where they have no choice but to commit terrorism.

I'm certain the terrorists in the south would love to hear how much compassion you have for what they will have to go through psychologicly in years to come. Before they cut your head off they may even say thank you.

Tell me, please, how comfortable is it to view the world in such simple terms of "the good" and "the bad"?

What about Tak Bai, tell me then your views on Tak Bai, and the lack of punishment of the responsible officers?

What about the chain of cause and effect, do these concepts have space in your world view?

[cdnvic]

I'm not so misguided as to be unable to condemn the murder of children, monks, and teachers.

Anyone who can't figure out something that simple must spend alot of time with their shoes untied.

Edited March 2, 2007 by cdnvic

[hammered]

Quite interesting to see some people view the Southern situation in one dimensional good versus bad analogies. Nice to know that the modern world can be sorted out in such an easy maner. No doubt all these simplistic "terrorism" problems can be sorted out in about 5 days now that we know how to analyse them. Oh hole on a moment King George has been trying that approach for over six years with no success and a tangible deterioration of the situation world wide not to mention hundreds of thousands of dead.

[ColPyat]

I'm not so misguided as to be unable to condemn the murder of children, monks, and teachers.

Have i made a statement that indicates that i would support the murder of those?

I don't think so.

You still fail to explain your position towards the Tak Bai incident. Can you answer a simple question, or do you just post on this topic because you feel the need to vent your anger?

What is it then with Tak Bai? Were the suffocated demonstrators legitimate targets, in your opinion, or was Tak Bai a gross human rights violation? Should then, in your opinion, the responsible officers be punished, or is it alright to just send them to inactive posts?

Could be the Tak Bai incident and the failure to punish the responsible officers be partly responsible for the escalation of the conflict?

And in this particular case, do you think it was responsible to put children into a military bus, which is clearly a legitimate target, or should, as another poster has suggested already, the children be put into a clearly marked civilian bus, and given armed escort?

You know, this is a war zone, and generally people in war zones do not walk around as if it's a city park in small town Switzerland.

But yes, i fear that i waste my time, and spoil the party of sprouting hate and anger here.

[cdnvic]

If you can't get angry over dead monks, teachers, and schoolkids then yeah, you are wasting space here.

[ColPyat]

If you can't get angry over dead monks, teachers, and schoolkids then yeah, you are wasting space here.

Oh sorry, i was under the mistaken impression that this is a discussion forum, and not a hate mongering site for farang and a few Thais to vent their anger and fury in oneliners.

My sincerest apologies.

Edited March 2, 2007 by ColPyat

[cdnvic]

Since when is being disgusted at innocent people being killed hatemongering? (who am I supposedly hating?) In the rest of the world it's called common sense. Try it out sometime.

Edited March 2, 2007 by cdnvic

[ColPyat]

Since when is being disgusted at innocent people being killed hatemongering? (who am I supposedly hating?) In the rest of the world it's called common sense. Try it out sometime.

Common sense would also be to at least discuss the question why those children were put into military buses without armed escort. Furthermore, common sense would dictate that contributing factors are looked into, especially the gross human rights violations of the other side as well. And there i do see you only shining in absence of making any comment about whatsoever.

Tak Bai?

[cdnvic]

So you're unable to condem these atrocities but ready and willing to make excuses for the perpatrators?

[ColPyat]

So you're unable to condem these atrocities but ready and willing to make excuses for the perpatrators?

Sometimes i really wonder about your logic.

Yes, i condemn any sort of violence, yes, i condemn the killing of children and monks, and i condemn the killing of demonstrators and lawyers and i condemn the torture of innocents.

Now, are you happy? Can we now get over that politician sort of BS, making symbolic speaches of condemnation and other knee jerk comments, and finally move to a discussion fit for adults, and stop this infantile banter?

Please?

[cdnvic]

Yes, i condemn any sort of violence, yes, i condemn the killing of children and monks, and i condemn the killing of demonstrators and lawyers and i condemn the torture of innocents.

Better late than never I suppose.

[ColPyat]

Yes, i condemn any sort of violence, yes, i condemn the killing of children and monks, and i condemn the killing of demonstrators and lawyers and i condemn the torture of innocents.

Better late than never I suppose.

So, since we have that off the table, what about answering the questions i have asked you?

[cdnvic]

Yes, i condemn any sort of violence, yes, i condemn the killing of children and monks, and i condemn the killing of demonstrators and lawyers and i condemn the torture of innocents.

Better late than never I suppose.

So, since we have that off the table, what about answering the questions i have asked you?

Which ones?

[PeaceBlondie]

Come on, nobody has said "OH goody goody, the nice victimized insurgents killed all those children, and let's be so sorry that the insurgents stubbed their toes running away." Nobody here has rejoiced at the shootings, or tried to justify them.

Can we agree that Tak Bai was something like a war crime, committed during Thaksin's regime? Can we feel sorry for at least some of the dead victims? Can we agree this latest incident is a terrible tragedy that might have been avoided?

[ColPyat]

Come on, nobody has said "OH goody goody, the nice victimized insurgents killed all those children, and let's be so sorry that the insurgents stubbed their toes running away." Nobody here has rejoiced at the shootings, or tried to justify them.

Can we agree that Tak Bai was something like a war crime, committed during Thaksin's regime? Can we feel sorry for at least some of the dead victims? Can we agree this latest incident is a terrible tragedy that might have been avoided?

Unfortunately the only thing we all seem to come to an agreement is that almost every thread on the insurgency down south has to end up in flames, infantile banter, diatribes and jingoism, and sadly every attempt to calmly and intelligently discuss this subject matter will be boycotted.

I am sorry, but statements along the lines of: "these animals", "shoot them all", "they are subhuman", moving then into spreading of conspiracy theories of Islam, with the obligatory statements of "i have also Muslim friends, but..." are not worthy of this forum, and not exactly an intellectual challenge.

Very sad.

[Mid]

mean while the troubles are migrating north ..................................

[ColPyat]

Which ones?

The ones in post #34, just a few posts before your latest one, on the same page.

Here, again, cut and pasted:

What is it then with Tak Bai? Were the suffocated demonstrators legitimate targets, in your opinion, or was Tak Bai a gross human rights violation? Should then, in your opinion, the responsible officers be punished, or is it alright to just send them to inactive posts?

Could be the Tak Bai incident and the failure to punish the responsible officers be partly responsible for the escalation of the conflict?

And in this particular case, do you think it was responsible to put children into a military bus, which is clearly a legitimate target, or should, as another poster has suggested already, the children be put into a clearly marked civilian bus, and given armed escort?

[cdnvic]

What is it then with Tak Bai? Were the suffocated demonstrators legitimate targets, in your opinion, or was Tak Bai a gross human rights violation? Should then, in your opinion, the responsible officers be punished, or is it alright to just send them to inactive posts?

Gross human rights violation. The prosecution should not stop at the officers, although they should bear a heavier burden of the responsibility. Inactive posts are not a suitable punishment.

Could be the Tak Bai incident and the failure to punish the responsible officers be partly responsible for the escalation of the conflict?

Only superficially as in giving them an excuse to point at. It is a legitimate grievence, but not an excuse for terrorism.

And in this particular case, do you think it was responsible to put children into a military bus, which is clearly a legitimate target, or should, as another poster has suggested already, the children be put into a clearly marked civilian bus, and given armed escort?

To date the terrorists have shown a reluctance to hit the military, but have had no qualms about teachers and schools. Looking at past behaviours the odds are better if the attackers think the target may be full of armed troops who may actually fight back.

[richard10365]

I still think a wall is a good idea. Give the separatist their own land and put up a wall to keep them out of Thailand. Take everything Thai from them such as their ID card and medical care. Also, make their country open to inspection by UN forces. If terrorist activities are found, punish them severely.

[blaze]

Quite interesting to see some people view the Southern situation in one dimensional good versus bad analogies. Nice to know that the modern world can be sorted out in such an easy maner. No doubt all these simplistic "terrorism" problems can be sorted out in about 5 days now that we know how to analyse them. Oh hole on a moment King George has been trying that approach for over six years with no success and a tangible deterioration of the situation world wide not to mention hundreds of thousands of dead.

The major reason that GW has made such a mess of everything is that he has NOT listened to analysis. Analyists were warning fifteen years ago that the number of Arab speakers in the various intelligence agencies was laughably insufficient. The entire reason that GW offered the world for the invasion of Iraq was developed IN

SPITE of what intelligence and analysts were saying. The assumption seemed to have been that since Saddam and Al Queda (working in concert) were simply subhuman aberrations, it would be an easy task to cut off the monster's head. The logic was that the people in the Arab regions (being NOT subhuman monsters) would rise up in support of their gallant liberators. Analysts at the time, people who knew even a little bit about the situation were saying that this thinking- from the Iraq connection with 9/11, the WMD, the supposition that the Arabs would welcome a bit of Shock and Awe- was crazy. Serious analysts were predicting right from day one a sectarian war, possibly involving Iran.

Sometimes analysis (coupled with intelligence- in both senses of the word) IS the best course.

GW was content to simply rely on the triumph of good over evil. It hasn't worked there- and such childishly simplistic analysis probably is doomed here too.

Yes- they got our attention. Now what.

[ColPyat]

What is it then with Tak Bai? Were the suffocated demonstrators legitimate targets, in your opinion, or was Tak Bai a gross human rights violation? Should then, in your opinion, the responsible officers be punished, or is it alright to just send them to inactive posts?

Gross human rights violation. The prosecution should not stop at the officers, although they should bear a heavier burden of the responsibility. Inactive posts are not a suitable punishment.

Here we are in agreement. Note though please that the very reluctant investigation and sad excuse for punishment under Thaksin was not taken up freshly by the present government. The rule that the armed forces tend to protect their own seems to still be valid.

Could be the Tak Bai incident and the failure to punish the responsible officers be partly responsible for the escalation of the conflict?

Only superficially as in giving them an excuse to point at. It is a legitimate grievence, but not an excuse for terrorism.

Good, what about then about a long history of marginalization of the local population, a long history of regular armed uprisings, of which the latest only ended in the '80s? What about consistent refusals of acceptance of the indigenous language - Yawi - as a second official language, as is usual in many areas of the world in areas of ethnic minorities?

I do not excuse violence here, or even support independence for Pattani, but all this is clearly not just "terrorism" but a struggle for independence of a region that previously was an independent state, with an ethnic population that is not Thai. And any solution has to take into account these legitimate grievances as well, and not just label these insurgence as what may be convenient to the arm chair warriors.

And in this particular case, do you think it was responsible to put children into a military bus, which is clearly a legitimate target, or should, as another poster has suggested already, the children be put into a clearly marked civilian bus, and given armed escort?

To date the terrorists have shown a reluctance to hit the military, but have had no qualms about teachers and schools. Looking at past behaviours the odds are better if the attackers think the target may be full of armed troops who may actually fight back.

Excuse me, but to date there were more than a few incidents where the military and armed volonteer organizations were clearly targeted. May i remind you just at the Krue Sae Mosque, where the there hidden insurgents before have attacked military and police posts, in appearant suicide attacks as they were only armed with machetes and a few oldish guns no match to the arms of the security forces. This is also reflected by the high amount of insurgent's death, a whole local football team killed, and reports of the insurgents hidden in the mosque being summarily executed, the commanding officer, Gen. Pallop, having clearly ignored then Defense Minister Chavalit's order to solve the situation via negotiations (and then have a look where the name Gen. Pallop has reapeared in recent times ).

And the many other small incidents where ranger and military patrols came under fire. Even during the latest bombings there was one incident where a military post was attacked and soldiers and insurgents have exchanged fire for several minutes.

I think you are being a bit selective here to support your views, and do not judge the situation based on reality.

[longway]

i am not sure you are right that the reason that the bus was attacked was because it was precieved to be a military target.

isnt it true that at least some elements of the insurgency or whatever you want to call it want to drive out the buddhists from the provinces. hence the the constant attacks on civilians.

killing a busload of school children could well have been a deliberate act to terror enacted to try to drive out people they deem to be foreigners.

[Mid]

your turn , my turn , your turn ..................

Soldiers raid insurgent camp, kill 8

Ra Ngae, Narathiwat (BangkokPost.com, Agencies) - Thai army troops and irregulars killed at least eight separatist militants in a 30-minute gun battle in a raid on an insurgent training camp on Friday, officials said.

About 60 rangers and regular soldiers raided the camp, not far from the Malaysian border. Security forces blocked off the area and dispatched 100 reinforcements to search for fleeing militants, said police Maj Gen Yongyuth Chareonvanich.

"Our forces did not suffer any casualties," he said.

no mention of survivors ?

[Dupont]

your turn , my turn , your turn ..................

Soldiers raid insurgent camp, kill 8

Ra Ngae, Narathiwat (BangkokPost.com, Agencies) - Thai army troops and irregulars killed at least eight separatist militants in a 30-minute gun battle in a raid on an insurgent training camp on Friday, officials said.

About 60 rangers and regular soldiers raided the camp, not far from the Malaysian border. Security forces blocked off the area and dispatched 100 reinforcements to search for fleeing militants, said police Maj Gen Yongyuth Chareonvanich.

"Our forces did not suffer any casualties," he said.

no mention of survivors ?

So the valliant Jihaidst horde ran screaming into the woods like in Monty Pythons Holy Grail.

Run away run away,

When danger reared its ugly head they bravely turned away and fled!

"Panick run, these are men with guns, not children, monks, women teachers with their hands tied behind their backs etc"

[ColPyat]

So the valliant Jihaidst horde ran screaming into the woods like in Monty Pythons Holy Grail.

Run away run away,

When danger reared its ugly head they bravely turned away and fled!

"Panick run, these are men with guns, not children, monks, women teachers with their hands tied behind their backs etc"

Hmmm, shooting people with hands tied behind their backs, isn't that as well one of the well proved tactics of the Thai army, such as in the Kru Sae Mosque incident, or the Ratchaburi hospital incident?

And <deleted> would you do if you get ambushed by a superior force? You would run if you can like anybody else does in such a situation.

Jeesas Christ...

[Briggsy]

This is just very wild conjecture and it's not meant to flame, troll or anything like that, but what are peoples thoughts on the idea that maybe the gov't, or military or some faction of the gov't is doing this to enrage the local people into not supporting the separatists?

I am not suggesting that the gov't as a whole would do this, because in all sincerity, I don't think they would. However, people in the trenches might.

Thoughts?

(PS: I take my paranoia mediction right after lunch) God, there are a lot of people watching me in the mornings!

This is certainly not impossible. In fact a similar event happened in Ratchaburi a few years ago. In that incident, primary school children were killed. It was widely rumoured that a well-connected politician was behind the attack. Instead of investigating the attack, the police charged an innocent, stateless and powerless Karen man, Jobi. He was later freed following intervention from the Queen. By failing to move against the real culprits, the police were effectively condoning the slaughter of innocent children.

So, the question you posed is are they capable of this sort of attack. Yes, because it's been done before.

[ace]

Excuse me, this is a war going on down there. I don't defend anything. I just want to know why school children were put into such danger in the first place.

.......................

I don't think there is a war going on, not from the Thai side. Maybe from the Muslim side, who want to ethnically cleanse the region. My opinion, Thais should treat it as a war, increase troops, introduce internment camps and close mosques - for starters. It seems attempts at a peaceful resolution are seen only as a sign of weakness.

I suspect the military bus was used due to lack of bus drivers / buses due to their legitimate fear of being shot for no other reason than they are driving non-muslim kids to school.

Ace

[John K]

The only good thing about this shooting if you can call it a good thing is this type of shooting tends to bring out a primal rage. To lay your parent to rest because of an act of violence is bad, but to lay your child to rest is primal. This will turn many of the passive people in the area to start to seek out the animals and do what must be done to protect their young. Big tactical error here.

Colpyat, I have been reading your posts and I can see the flaw in your thinking. You are thinking in absolutes but this is not the case. The animals don’t have a hierarchy here, they just go out and shoot and bomb. There is no formal training like boot camp and I doubt they have the intelligence in place to know the movements of people and targets. The bus just happened along, and I highly doubt they planned this in advance. If they did know this in advance and to plan attacks on innocent children is totally undefendable as a human. Shall we talk subspecies again here?

The closest mentality here is that of a bully as a bully will not attack anything they are not sure they will win at. However bullies bully and don’t kill so again not a real comparison. Bullies belong to the human species.

[ColPyat]

The only good thing about this shooting if you can call it a good thing is this type of shooting tends to bring out a primal rage. To lay your parent to rest because of an act of violence is bad, but to lay your child to rest is primal. This will turn many of the passive people in the area to start to seek out the animals and do what must be done to protect their young. Big tactical error here.

Colpyat, I have been reading your posts and I can see the flaw in your thinking. You are thinking in absolutes but this is not the case. The animals don’t have a hierarchy here, they just go out and shoot and bomb. There is no formal training like boot camp and I doubt they have the intelligence in place to know the movements of people and targets. The bus just happened along, and I highly doubt they planned this in advance. If they did know this in advance and to plan attacks on innocent children is totally undefendable as a human. Shall we talk subspecies again here?

The closest mentality here is that of a bully as a bully will not attack anything they are not sure they will win at. However bullies bully and don’t kill so again not a real comparison. Bullies belong to the human species.

As usual your post is so wrong that it is almost comical.

If the insurgents would have neither hierarchy, structure, training or intelligence, then the well planned consecutive bombing attacks would have hardly been possible. A few posts before yours, an article speaks about a training camp having been raided, so there goes you idiotic theory of the insurgents having no "boot camps".

And other than that, you have added to your already more than dubious eugenic views on humanity another one - namely that it were a good thing that such an incident would "bring out primal rage".

Rather ironic that you even contradict yourself here, accusing the insurgents of being somewhat less than human, while asking the side you support to let go of reason, and retard into "primal rage".

I am a bit concerned about you, given the rather odd ideas you promote here...

Edited March 2, 2007 by ColPyat

[John K]

The only good thing about this shooting if you can call it a good thing is this type of shooting tends to bring out a primal rage. To lay your parent to rest because of an act of violence is bad, but to lay your child to rest is primal. This will turn many of the passive people in the area to start to seek out the animals and do what must be done to protect their young. Big tactical error here.

Colpyat, I have been reading your posts and I can see the flaw in your thinking. You are thinking in absolutes but this is not the case. The animals don’t have a hierarchy here, they just go out and shoot and bomb. There is no formal training like boot camp and I doubt they have the intelligence in place to know the movements of people and targets. The bus just happened along, and I highly doubt they planned this in advance. If they did know this in advance and to plan attacks on innocent children is totally undefendable as a human. Shall we talk subspecies again here?

The closest mentality here is that of a bully as a bully will not attack anything they are not sure they will win at. However bullies bully and don’t kill so again not a real comparison. Bullies belong to the human species.

As usual your post is so wrong that it is almost comical.

If the insurgents would have neither hierarchy, structure, training or intelligence, then the well planned consecutive bombing attacks would have hardly been possible. A few posts before yours, an article speaks about a training camp having been raided, so there goes you idiotic theory of the insurgents having no "boot camps".

And other than that, you have added to your already more than dubious eugenic views on humanity another one - namely that it were a good thing that such an incident would "bring out primal rage".

Rather ironic that you even contradict yourself here, accusing the insurgents of being somewhat less than human, while asking the side you support to let go of reason, and retard into "primal rage".

I am a bit concerned about you, given the rather odd ideas you promote here...

I really don’t want to get in a tit for tat debate with you here, as it seems you are standing alone and the majority of the posts see things in a very different light. You are entitled to you opinion and views but at least to me it seems the bulk of what you are saying is quotes from books and other literature with very little out of the box.

Primal not primal rage. Primal examples that we have seen is an adult animal defending it’s young from a predator knowing that the predator is superior. It refers to the survival instinct in all of us. I have seen several examples on animal programs and it is inherent in all of us. Carful here colpyat your in my area of expertise on this one. How long will you sit back and watch as someone harms your child? How many times have you seen a crowd of people go after an attacker? I seem to recall a shrine in Bangkok that was destroyed last year, the person that did that was chased attacked and killed by (if I remember correctly) two street sweepers. Translation, this will not stop at ‘just my kids’ but everyone will be involved. Think 9-11 here. I could go on but I think you can see where this is going.

I tend to doubt it was a training camp but more of a campsite. The report makes no mention of training equipment but only weapons like M16. Training camps have training equipment.